Focus Priorty - Pentax AF-C versus Nikon AF-C

[brandrx]

Hi folks,

Before I write anything else, I want to say that I very much prefer Pentax DSLR over Nikon DSLR but for one thing. That thing is AF-C. The following is just my opinion. Others might think differently.

I am talking about AF-C of Pentax K-3 / K-3II versus Nikon D7100 / D7200, They all have menu selections for AF Hold status. They all have menu selections for Release Priority or Focus Priority. Focus Priority on the Pentax does not work properly IMO. The shutter can be released even if the subject is out of focus. Focus Priority on the Nikon does work properly. The shutter will not be released unless the subject is in focus.

This is something I have been ranting about for a lot of years. It just seems strange to me that Pentax would not fix it so that when Focus Priority is selected that the shutter would not fire until the subject is in focus. This, to me, is the very problem that so many people have against using Pentax cameras. I believe that, if Pentax would fix this problem, then sales of Pentax cameras would skyrocket.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Ron

--
Ron - 'We don't have time to go take pics this afternoon Carl.'
Carl - 'What do you mean? It will only take 1/1000s.'
'Keep your eyes looking forward. However, glance back now and then to see where you've come from. It will put a smile on your face.' ~ brandrx

 

[zakaria]

Hi folks,

Before I write anything else, I want to say that I very much prefer Pentax DSLR over Nikon DSLR but for one thing. That thing is AF-C. The following is just my opinion. Others might think differently.

I am talking about AF-C of Pentax K-3 / K-3II versus Nikon D7100 / D7200, They all have menu selections for AF Hold status. They all have menu selections for Release Priority or Focus Priority. Focus Priority on the Pentax does not work properly IMO. The shutter can be released even if the subject is out of focus. Focus Priority on the Nikon does work properly. The shutter will not be released unless the subject is in focus.

This is something I have been ranting about for a lot of years. It just seems strange to me that Pentax would not fix it so that when Focus Priority is selected that the shutter would not fire until the subject is in focus. This, to me, is the very problem that so many people have against using Pentax cameras. I believe that, if Pentax would fix this problem, then sales of Pentax cameras would skyrocket.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Ron

 

[Barry Pearson]

Hi folks,

Before I write anything else, I want to say that I very much prefer Pentax DSLR over Nikon DSLR but for one thing. That thing is AF-C. The following is just my opinion. Others might think differently.

I am talking about AF-C of Pentax K-3 / K-3II versus Nikon D7100 / D7200, They all have menu selections for AF Hold status. They all have menu selections for Release Priority or Focus Priority. Focus Priority on the Pentax does not work properly IMO. The shutter can be released even if the subject is out of focus. Focus Priority on the Nikon does work properly. The shutter will not be released unless the subject is in focus.

This is something I have been ranting about for a lot of years. It just seems strange to me that Pentax would not fix it so that when Focus Priority is selected that the shutter would not fire until the subject is in focus. This, to me, is the very problem that so many people have against using Pentax cameras. I believe that, if Pentax would fix this problem, then sales of Pentax cameras would skyrocket.

Yes.

I set "Focus Priority" because I have no use whatsoever for an out-of-focus photo!

 

[brandrx]

Hi folks,

Before I write anything else, I want to say that I very much prefer Pentax DSLR over Nikon DSLR but for one thing. That thing is AF-C. The following is just my opinion. Others might think differently.

I am talking about AF-C of Pentax K-3 / K-3II versus Nikon D7100 / D7200, They all have menu selections for AF Hold status. They all have menu selections for Release Priority or Focus Priority. Focus Priority on the Pentax does not work properly IMO. The shutter can be released even if the subject is out of focus. Focus Priority on the Nikon does work properly. The shutter will not be released unless the subject is in focus.

This is something I have been ranting about for a lot of years. It just seems strange to me that Pentax would not fix it so that when Focus Priority is selected that the shutter would not fire until the subject is in focus. This, to me, is the very problem that so many people have against using Pentax cameras. I believe that, if Pentax would fix this problem, then sales of Pentax cameras would skyrocket.

Yes.

I set "Focus Priority" because I have no use whatsoever for an out-of-focus photo!

Sorry Barry, your answer in this post is meaningless as you have written it. If you are using Pentax AF-C then Focus Priority is useless because it doesn't work. If you are using Nikon AF-C then Focus Priority has a lot of meaning simply because it works.

Ron

--
Ron - 'We don't have time to go take pics this afternoon Carl.'
Carl - 'What do you mean? It will only take 1/1000s.'
'Keep your eyes looking forward. However, glance back now and then to see where you've come from. It will put a smile on your face.' ~ brandrx

 

[Barry Pearson]

Yes.

I set "Focus Priority" because I have no use whatsoever for an out-of-focus photo!

Sorry Barry, your answer in this post is meaningless as you have written it. If you are using Pentax AF-C then Focus Priority is useless because it doesn't work.

I do the right thing, according to the operating manual and menu, in an attempt to get in-focus photos.

It is the camera that then does the wrong thing.

 

[brandrx]

Yes.

I set "Focus Priority" because I have no use whatsoever for an out-of-focus photo!

Sorry Barry, your answer in this post is meaningless as you have written it. If you are using Pentax AF-C then Focus Priority is useless because it doesn't work.

I do the right thing, according to the operating manual and menu, in an attempt to get in-focus photos.

It is the camera that then does the wrong thing.

And, that is what I wrote in the OP about the Pentax in AF-C.

Your first post seemed to indicate that Focus Priority actually works properly in AF-C when using Pentax.

Ron

 

[John Venables]

You have to wonder why Pentax cannot make it work when catch in focus does work. surely it is the same process.

 

[brandrx]

You have to wonder why Pentax cannot make it work when catch in focus does work. surely it is the same process.

CIF uses AF-S. It is not the same.

Ron

 

[John Venables]

The principal is the same. do not open shutter until focus is achieved.

 

[brandrx]

The principal is the same. do not open shutter until focus is achieved.

That's true.

Focus Priority for Pentax AF-C has never worked properly since day one. You can sort of overcome the problem by making sure that you don't press the shutter fully until you first obtain focus confirmation. However, if you act just a hair too soon that first image and most likely all of the following images of the sequence will most likely be OOF.

Ron

--
Ron - 'We don't have time to go take pics this afternoon Carl.'
Carl - 'What do you mean? It will only take 1/1000s.'
'Keep your eyes looking forward. However, glance back now and then to see where you've come from. It will put a smile on your face.' ~ brandrx

 

[Ian Stuart Forsyth]

Hi folks,

Before I write anything else, I want to say that I very much prefer Pentax DSLR over Nikon DSLR but for one thing. That thing is AF-C. The following is just my opinion. Others might think differently.

I am talking about AF-C of Pentax K-3 / K-3II versus Nikon D7100 / D7200, They all have menu selections for AF Hold status. They all have menu selections for Release Priority or Focus Priority. Focus Priority on the Pentax does not work properly IMO. The shutter can be released even if the subject is out of focus. Focus Priority on the Nikon does work properly. The shutter will not be released unless the subject is in focus.

This is something I have been ranting about for a lot of years. It just seems strange to me that Pentax would not fix it so that when Focus Priority is selected that the shutter would not fire until the subject is in focus. This, to me, is the very problem that so many people have against using Pentax cameras. I believe that, if Pentax would fix this problem, then sales of Pentax cameras would skyrocket.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Ron

 

[Stig Vidar Hovland]

This is something I have been ranting about for a lot of years. It just seems strange to me that Pentax would not fix it so that when Focus Priority is selected that the shutter would not fire until the subject is in focus.

I think they know about it, but if they change it, the frame rate will drop to an embarrasing low value :-|

 

[brandrx]

Hi folks,

Before I write anything else, I want to say that I very much prefer Pentax DSLR over Nikon DSLR but for one thing. That thing is AF-C. The following is just my opinion. Others might think differently.

I am talking about AF-C of Pentax K-3 / K-3II versus Nikon D7100 / D7200, They all have menu selections for AF Hold status. They all have menu selections for Release Priority or Focus Priority. Focus Priority on the Pentax does not work properly IMO. The shutter can be released even if the subject is out of focus. Focus Priority on the Nikon does work properly. The shutter will not be released unless the subject is in focus.

This is something I have been ranting about for a lot of years. It just seems strange to me that Pentax would not fix it so that when Focus Priority is selected that the shutter would not fire until the subject is in focus. This, to me, is the very problem that so many people have against using Pentax cameras. I believe that, if Pentax would fix this problem, then sales of Pentax cameras would skyrocket.

Again, this is just my opinion.

Ron

I find this problem odd, with the K20 K7 and K5 I never had this problem, set to focus priority while you took a hit with the frame rate the K5 was not that bad for times that you needed to focus quickly for a 1 or 2 shot quick sequence.

I can't speak to the K20D anymore as I no longer own that one.

There is no menu selection for Focus Priority in the K-7 that I can find.

There is a menu selection for Focus Priority in the K-5.

In both the K-7 and K-5 the camera can fire before focus is obtained when using AF-C. Just the same as I described in the OP.

Ron

 

[brandrx]

This is something I have been ranting about for a lot of years. It just seems strange to me that Pentax would not fix it so that when Focus Priority is selected that the shutter would not fire until the subject is in focus.

I think they know about it, but if they change it, the frame rate will drop to an embarrasing low value :-|

Yes, it would drop but I don't think it would be embarrasing low.

I would accept a lower frame rate for proper Focus Priority in AF-C.

Ron

 

[Barry Pearson]

Yes.

I set "Focus Priority" because I have no use whatsoever for an out-of-focus photo!

Sorry Barry, your answer in this post is meaningless as you have written it. If you are using Pentax AF-C then Focus Priority is useless because it doesn't work.

I do the right thing, according to the operating manual and menu, in an attempt to get in-focus photos.

It is the camera that then does the wrong thing.

And, that is what I wrote in the OP about the Pentax in AF-C.

Your first post seemed to indicate that Focus Priority actually works properly in AF-C when using Pentax.

That is certainly not what I meant!

I have no use whatsoever for an out-of-focus photo. So what should I set those options to in the menu? They have to be set to something, so "Focus Priority" is the obvious choice.

If the camera doesn't actually obey "Focus Priority", then as long as it doesn't make things worse, what have I lost?

If the camera does something, even if it isn't perfect, then I've gained.

And if they change the firmware to improve things, then my camera is already configured to take advantage of the change.

I assume that in the original post you were talking specifically about "1st Frame Action in AF.C", not about "Action in AF.C Cont"?

My experience is that once the camera has locked into focus, with "Focus Priority" set in "Action in AF.C Cont" the camera does a pretty good job of staying locked on.

. . . . .

Changing the subject to the K-1, I'm having a significantly higher proportion of in-focus photos with the K-1. I don't know if this is simply because the K-1 is better than the K-3II. It may be because I am being more economical with when I press the button fully down after panning with the button half down.

At the risk of being controversial, apart from the burst rate I think the K-1 is the best Pentax camera yet for the sort of action photography I do.

Photos showing some of the K-1's AF capability

Photos of airplanes in flight taken with a K-1

More photos of birds in flight taken with a K-1

 

[brandrx]

Yes.

I set "Focus Priority" because I have no use whatsoever for an out-of-focus photo!

Sorry Barry, your answer in this post is meaningless as you have written it. If you are using Pentax AF-C then Focus Priority is useless because it doesn't work.

I do the right thing, according to the operating manual and menu, in an attempt to get in-focus photos.

It is the camera that then does the wrong thing.

And, that is what I wrote in the OP about the Pentax in AF-C.

Your first post seemed to indicate that Focus Priority actually works properly in AF-C when using Pentax.

That is certainly not what I meant!

I have no use whatsoever for an out-of-focus photo. So what should I set those options to in the menu? They have to be set to something, so "Focus Priority" is the obvious choice.

Of course Focus Priority is the choice to make. I'm not arguing that. I am only saying one thing. Focus Priority in AF-C when using Pentax does not work properly and I wish that Pentax would fix the damn problem.

If the camera doesn't actually obey "Focus Priority", then as long as it doesn't make things worse, what have I lost?

If the camera does something, even if it isn't perfect, then I've gained.

And if they change the firmware to improve things, then my camera is already configured to take advantage of the change.

I assume that in the original post you were talking specifically about "1st Frame Action in AF.C", not about "Action in AF.C Cont"?

You assumed wrong. I am talking about both.

If you happen to fully press the shutter a hair too soon then the first frame will most likely be OOF. As you continue holding the shutter pressed fully then the following images might also be OOF. This is especially true if you are using AF-C and Expanded Area AF.

My experience is that once the camera has locked into focus, with "Focus Priority" set in "Action in AF.C Cont" the camera does a pretty good job of staying locked on.

That is also my experience. However, a lot of folks are not aware of this and might press the shutter too soon. Then they report that Pentax tracking sucks and that bad report gets thrown around the internet over and over again. If Pentax would only fix the problem then those bad tracking reports should stop.

Again, all I am saying is that Focus Priority in Pentax AF-C does not work properly. However, Pentax owners have no other choice than to use it as it has been built and hope for the best. Nikon owners do not have to worry about this and Pentax would be well advised IMO to fix their damn problem and make it like Nikon.

Just continue using your Pentax like you have been Barry. I will do the same. I will also continue to complain about this problem as long as it exists. So, if you see a post by me in the future about this problem and you wish to respond then please just read the dang post before you do so.

Ron

 

[Sophie Wilson]

Ron, I understand your point of view. But I think it buys into a fallacy - that anything can be perfect. You're saying "Pentax would be perfect if it had Nikon's AF 3d tracking mode" but it would still have different qualities to other cameras and for some people that makes it not perfect. Sales might improve a bit, but hardly skyrocket. Indeed, I offer the gradual improvements in Pentax AF over the years as proof - its improved, but still does not match Nikon (which after all were also improving over the years). I think it takes a picture in AF.C with Focus Priority set when the subject is out of focus because it doesn't know that the subject is out of focus and something else caused the focus lock.

Which is why I have so many camera systems - I try to take the least imperfect one for each shooting situation. I think currently its more often a Pentax.

Sophie (*ist D, K10D, K20D, K-7, K-5, K-5 IIs, K-1 - and a K-x on my gigapan)

 

[tcom]

Hi Ron

Yes, this is really an annoying behavior of the way Pentax implemented AF-C Focus Priority. It is a domain working like a charm on Nikon, but not on Pentax.

I notified it to Pentax as well on the K5 than on the K3 and all I was told was, the AF behaves the way it should. As long as this is the understanding of Pentax on how Focus Priority is supposed to work, we will not see a fix.

 

[brandrx]

Ron, I understand your point of view. But I think it buys into a fallacy - that anything can be perfect. You're saying "Pentax would be perfect if it had Nikon's AF 3d tracking mode"

I never used the word perfect in the OP. I never used the phrase Nikon's 3D tracking mode in the OP.

All I used is the words Focus Priority which means to me that the subject should be in focus before the camera fires.

but it would still have different qualities to other cameras and for some people that makes it not perfect.

Again, all I am arguing is the two words, Focus Priority, which does not work properly in Pentax AF-C.

Sales might improve a bit, but hardly skyrocket. Indeed, I offer the gradual improvements in Pentax AF over the years as proof

If Pentax had fixed the damn problem many years ago then, IMO, focus tracking would have already been on par with Nikon and Canon.

- its improved, but still does not match Nikon (which after all were also improving over the years). I think it takes a picture in AF.C with Focus Priority set when the subject is out of focus because it doesn't know that the subject is out of focus and something else caused the focus lock.

I think you are wrong. There is no indication of focus lock when the camera fires when in AF-C. Focus Priority, and the subject is OOF.

Which is why I have so many camera systems - I try to take the least imperfect one for each shooting situation. I think currently its more often a Pentax.

Sophie (*ist D, K10D, K20D, K-7, K-5, K-5 IIs, K-1 - and a K-x on my gigapan)

 

[brandrx]

Hi Ron

Hi Dominique.

Yes, this is really an annoying behavior of the way Pentax implemented AF-C Focus Priority. It is a domain working like a charm on Nikon, but not on Pentax.

Thank you Dominique. Finally someone that read and understood my OP.

I notified it to Pentax as well on the K5 than on the K3 and all I was told was, the AF behaves the way it should. As long as this is the understanding of Pentax on how Focus Priority is supposed to work, we will not see a fix.

I also notified Pentax about the problem back in the K-5 days. However, they did not respond to me.

The Pentax folks are great in most things. However, in this one thing they simply do not understand that it is a problem. Either that or they are not smart enough to fix the problem.

I agree that we will most likely never see a fix. And that my friend is why many folks do not buy Pentax and some of us Pentax owners buy Nikon as a second camera to use when doing serious tracking of a subject. That is Pentax's loss IMO.

Ron

--
Ron - 'We don't have time to go take pics this afternoon Carl.'
Carl - 'What do you mean? It will only take 1/1000s.'
'Keep your eyes looking forward. However, glance back now and then to see where you've come from. It will put a smile on your face.' ~ brandrx