NX1's lack of back-button focussing

[Jan Behrens]

This is to continue the discussion about the "AF ON" button of the NX1 and its usefulness for back-button focussing.

Here's my point of view:

I would like to have the ability so setup the NX1 in such way that it does not focus automatically unless I explicitly ask the camera to autofocus by pressing a button (that is not the shutter button).

There are generally two buttons (on the backside of the NX1) that could serve this purpose:

• AF ON button
• AEL button

One of these buttons can be configured as:

• AF Start
• AF Start + Lock
• Metering & AF Start
• Metering & AF Start + Lock

The other button can be configured as:

• AEL
• AEL Hold
• AFL
• AFL Hold
• AEL + AFL

Considering only the functions that are limited to focussing / focus locking, the following options remain:

• AF Start
• AF Start + Lock
• AFL
• AFL + Lock

In the remainder of this post, I will examine each of those 4 configuration options, showing why they are not suitable for back-button focussing.

AF Start:

This mode requires you to press and hold the "AF ON" button to avoid further autofocus when pressing the shutter button (assuming "Single AF" is selected).

If you set autofocus to "Continuous AF" (or "Active AF"), the camera will keep focussing while the button is pressed. Selecting "Manual Focus" will just disable autofocussing completely, so it is not a usable option here.

Only "Single AF" did allow me to focus once and lock the focus by holding the button. Does this allow for "back-button focussing"?

No, because first of all, I do not want to be required to hold the "AF ON" button to keep my focus. Therefore, this function is unsuitable for me. Secondly, while holding the button, the command wheels are blocked so that I cannot change aperture, shutter speed, exposure value, etc. after locking focus. Also because of this, the function is unsuitable for me.

AF Start + Lock:

Using this setting, it is possible to lock focus without having to hold the "AF ON" button all the time. You press the button once and the camera will autofocus and then lock focus (so the camera doesn't re-focus when the shutter button is pressed later). But also here, the command wheels are blocked while the focus is locked. Furthermore, in order to re-focus, you will have to press the button twice (once to unlock, a second time to re-focus).

Due to the blocked command wheels and the fact that you need to press the button twice, this option is very limited in use.

AFL:

Because AFL (without "Lock") is reset after taking a photo, this option isn't suitable for the desired purpose.

AFL + Lock:

Configuring one of the buttons as "AFL+Lock" allows you to permanently disable the autofocus when pressing the shutter (until turning the mode wheel). AFL+Lock will not be reset after each shot. You may thus explicitly ask the camera to perform an autofocus (e.g. by half-pressing the shutter button) and then lock the focus with the button that is configured to AFL. Because you have to press two buttons successively for focussing and locking the focus, this option isn't well usable either. Furthermore, if you want to autofocus again, you would have to press three buttons: unlock AFL, focus, lock AFL.

At least the command wheels do not get blocked here. But there is another side-effect: the AEL function gets unavailable when configuring one button to "AFL+Lock" (the other button must then be configured to one of "AF Start", "AF Start + Lock", "Metering & AF Start", or "Metering & AF Start + Lock").

Conclusion

The NX1 doesn't provide proper back-button focussing. This issue should have been known to Samsung for months already, but they are not fixing it (at least not as of firmware v1.30). I assume Canon/Nikon behave better in this regard?

 

[STexan]

Then I think we should also determine if a photographer is shooting handheld or on a tripod, because if a user is on a tripod, then there are other options that come into play where the AF On button is not necessarily one of them (touch-screen focus) ... this option too has varying behavior depending on the various settings in play.

On a tripod, touch screen focus makes much more sense then BF On button usage, and probably works more in line with what some here want. Touch Screen Focus feature may be the driving factor Samsung did some of the things the way they did .. IMO

But to me in most situations where a fixed focus is wanted, I simply turn off the AF switch and manually focus where I want, and forget it. Easy-Peezy. But that's coming from one who typically shoots on a tripod, w/ remote shutter release. But one who hand-holds all the time, then others issues come into play, granted but I still don't see why the desperate need to have the camera behave only a certain way Vs another way. It's not the end of the world.

--
Robert K

 

[tecnoworld]

Yours are the most detailed posts about nx1. Samsung should really read them and use them to improve their camera.

 

[Trenman]

And then there's the whole issue of BB AF not working in video mode (at least in 1.22). That is where I would use it if I were able to. I find the current settings in photo mode to be sufficient for me however.

 

[bpjod]

Great summary. I started shooting with a dedicated button for focussing way back when the Canon Elan 7E came out (i.e. in the last century ;-) ). Every Canon and Pentax camera I've had since then, one of the first things I do is set the camera up that way.

I've only had my NX1 a week. I thought the AEL Hold and AF Start + Lock behaviour was going to be a different, but workable solution. In fact, I was beginning to convince myself that its behavioiur was even better than what I was accustomed to as I'd often find myself menu diving to turn focussing on the shutter release button on/off which was a pain. With the AF Start + Lock, it's kind of like having the best of both worlds: a button to AF with that subsequently disables AF from the shutter release when you don't want to lose the focus point you've set, then disabling that and restoring AF to the shutter release when done with a simple press of the AF button again. However, I hadn't yet tried changing the exposure controls while AF Lock was engaged. It's most disappointing to hear that the exposure controls also become locked when AF Lock is engaged. What were they thinking?

Keep banging the drum Jan. Hopefully they'll get it right soon.

 

[venice]

I assume Canon/Nikon behave better in this regard?

Yeah, not so much.

No digital Nikon I have ever owned has had anything even remotely close to the number of quality updates to improve functionality that the NX1 has had already.

You think my D4 or D800 will get firmware updates to move them closer to the D4s or D810?

Hah!

I hope that Samsung addresses your BB issue as well as the many, many other ergonomic issues which are brought to light in the discussion boards.

Personally, my sports shooting would be enhanced far more by increasing the buffer size (compressed RAW?) than any Nikon like BB functionality. Also, variable zebra stripes would be nice, etc

More high quality lenses would also make a world of difference as well.

Having said that I certainly appreciate your detailed description of the functionality of some of the various confusing AF settings.

Best,

Bill

 

[Tugela]

So, basically what you are saying is that you have to change your workflow to be consistent with the camera design, and you don't want to do that.

I don't see that as a camera problem. I have no issue with the way they have implemented the button layout. Just use the AF lock function if you want the camera to hold focus. Set your aperture and shutter speed before rather than after.

 

[Tugela]

I assume Canon/Nikon behave better in this regard?

Yeah, not so much.

No digital Nikon I have ever owned has had anything even remotely close to the number of quality updates to improve functionality that the NX1 has had already.

You think my D4 or D800 will get firmware updates to move them closer to the D4s or D810?

Hah!

I hope that Samsung addresses your BB issue as well as the many, many other ergonomic issues which are brought to light in the discussion boards.

Personally, my sports shooting would be enhanced far more by increasing the buffer size (compressed RAW?) than any Nikon like BB functionality. Also, variable zebra stripes would be nice, etc

More high quality lenses would also make a world of difference as well.

Having said that I certainly appreciate your detailed description of the functionality of some of the various confusing AF settings.

Best,

Bill

Compressed .RAW wont increase the buffer size. The buffer is used to store the raw feed off the sensor. The bottleneck is the subsequent processing to generate the .RAW files, this is clearly evident from the fact that using faster cards results in very small improvements in the duration of burst shooting - so write speed isn't the problem. Compressed .RAW might generate smaller files but it wont make your buffer capacity any larger.

 

[The Straw Man]

I assume Canon/Nikon behave better in this regard?

Yeah, not so much.

I disagree.

They don't have this issue in the first place, since Canon and Nikon DSLR's do have a proper implementation of BB focus. My D750 does it right, as do many others.

The always awesome Steve Perry explains here.

Yes Canon & Nikon don't see FW updates like the Sammy, but a lot of the usability issues that get discussed here aren't an issue with most C/N bodies.

I love the NX1, but some of the functions (or lack thereof) are real head-scratchers.

 

[mfair]

Jan,

First off, thanks so much for the extremely useful, informative posts. I've learned alot about my camera reading your stuff!

If the current (1.3) AF+lock implementation did NOT lock up the command wheel or the other controls, would you say we have a good solution from Samsung? Because I think that is what I infer from your review, and I totally agree. If this is the case, then I think we need to push home the message to Samsung (however that is done) that there is simply a single remaining bug in the implementation, namely that the control wheel is not enabled. This is likely a flag setting is firmware that was missed.

I think the key here is that, at least for me, I have that wheel set to EV comp, which is definitely something you would want to do with focus locked, so its critical that this control is not disabled during a period of focus lock!

I am hopefully you will continue to post great thoughtful notes such as these. Maybe you can look at focus issues during video next?

Regards,

Marc

 

[Tugela]

Jan,

First off, thanks so much for the extremely useful, informative posts. I've learned alot about my camera reading your stuff!

If the current (1.3) AF+lock implementation did NOT lock up the command wheel or the other controls, would you say we have a good solution from Samsung? Because I think that is what I infer from your review, and I totally agree. If this is the case, then I think we need to push home the message to Samsung (however that is done) that there is simply a single remaining bug in the implementation, namely that the control wheel is not enabled. This is likely a flag setting is firmware that was missed.

I think the key here is that, at least for me, I have that wheel set to EV comp, which is definitely something you would want to do with focus locked, so its critical that this control is not disabled during a period of focus lock!

I am hopefully you will continue to post great thoughtful notes such as these. Maybe you can look at focus issues during video next?

Regards,

Marc

You can lock focus with your lens and still keep control of everything else if that is what you want.

 

[mfair]

You can lock focus with your lens and still keep control of everything else if that is what you want.

Thanks, I'll try that. Does seem nice to be able to keep the fingers right there on the back of the camera.

 

[venice]

I assume Canon/Nikon behave better in this regard?

Yeah, not so much.

No digital Nikon I have ever owned has had anything even remotely close to the number of quality updates to improve functionality that the NX1 has had already.

You think my D4 or D800 will get firmware updates to move them closer to the D4s or D810?

Hah!

I hope that Samsung addresses your BB issue as well as the many, many other ergonomic issues which are brought to light in the discussion boards.

Personally, my sports shooting would be enhanced far more by increasing the buffer size (compressed RAW?) than any Nikon like BB functionality. Also, variable zebra stripes would be nice, etc

More high quality lenses would also make a world of difference as well.

Having said that I certainly appreciate your detailed description of the functionality of some of the various confusing AF settings.

Best,

Bill

Compressed .RAW wont increase the buffer size. The buffer is used to store the raw feed off the sensor. The bottleneck is the subsequent processing to generate the .RAW files, this is clearly evident from the fact that using faster cards results in very small improvements in the duration of burst shooting - so write speed isn't the problem. Compressed .RAW might generate smaller files but it wont make your buffer capacity any larger.

Raw buffer = about 20
JPEG buffer = about 70

So you are saying it takes multiple times as long to process a RAW file as it does a JPEG file and that the size of those files is not a contributing factor.

That seems unlikely.

Bill

 

[venice]

Nikons have tons of usability issues which never get updated with anything remotely close to the frequency or success of the NX1 updates.

It just happens that this one, very specific issue is one that has an implementation on Nikon that some users prefer.

My NX1 is easier to use and more versatile than any Nikon I have ever had. I would love it if Nikon would get off their backs and produce such a camera so I could use all the pricey glass I have sitting next to my D4 and D800, two cameras now relegated to niche use only.

I would also love more NX1 upgrades.

Bill

 

[mfair]

Jan,

Re-reading this post (studying, really) and I'm wondering how C-AF plays into this discussion.

If you are using single AF, then this all seems very straight-forward, but what of the C-AF scenario. If I am using C-AF, I assume I am doing something (using a back button) and no longer thinking about focus since the camera continues to change focus.

I read the Steve Perry article someone else here recommended, and he says this about BB focusing in general:

"Beats trying to switch back and forth from single shot AF to continuous AF, that’s for sure." I don't get this. How does BB focus impact a possible need to switch from single AF to C-AF?

Marc

 

[The Straw Man]

Nikons have tons of usability issues which never get updated with anything remotely close to the frequency or success of the NX1 updates.

It just happens that this one, very specific issue is one that has an implementation on Nikon that some users prefer.

My NX1 is easier to use and more versatile than any Nikon I have ever had. I would love it if Nikon would get off their backs and produce such a camera so I could use all the pricey glass I have sitting next to my D4 and D800, two cameras now relegated to niche use only.

I would also love more NX1 upgrades.

Bill

Yes there are issues with every camera that never get addressed, one of the reasons I bought the NX1 was because Samsung is listening. But the AF functionality is not nearly as refined as Canon or Nikon. Samsung has some work to do if they want to get to that level.

BB AF has been on DSLR's for a couple decades, Canon, Nikon, Sony/Minolta, Pentax, Olympus and others have it as part of the camera's functionality because it can be a more efficient way of shooting, that's why tons of sports, action and wildlife shooters use it - but its useful in any shooting situation. I picked it up from a SI photographer years ago and have used it ever since.

Unlike some of the requests/complaints this one is not far fetched.

Hopefully in the next update...

 

[Jan Behrens]

Great summary. I started shooting with a dedicated button for focussing way back when the Canon Elan 7E came out (i.e. in the last century ;-) ). Every Canon and Pentax camera I've had since then, one of the first things I do is set the camera up that way.

I've only had my NX1 a week. I thought the AEL Hold and AF Start + Lock behaviour was going to be a different, but workable solution. In fact, I was beginning to convince myself that its behavioiur was even better than what I was accustomed to as I'd often find myself menu diving to turn focussing on the shutter release button on/off which was a pain. With the AF Start + Lock, it's kind of like having the best of both worlds: a button to AF with that subsequently disables AF from the shutter release when you don't want to lose the focus point you've set, then disabling that and restoring AF to the shutter release when done with a simple press of the AF button again.

That's an interesting thought. Maybe if I had some experience with both ways of focussing, I might prefer Samsungs approach (assuming that the bug regarding the blocking of the command wheels would be fixed). But I really don't know. I'd have to test both and collect some practical experiences.

However, I hadn't yet tried changing the exposure controls while AF Lock was engaged. It's most disappointing to hear that the exposure controls also become locked when AF Lock is engaged. What were they thinking?

I believe the design considerations when devising the NX1's hardware with an "AF ON" button got somehow lost (or were not rechecked) when the firmware was being made and tested in-house. Otherwise this bug should have been noticed during development.

Keep banging the drum Jan. Hopefully they'll get it right soon.

I have sent Samsung a whole list of bugs and other issues. Since I didn't get any feedback (except being told that some of my reported behavior could be verified and my information was being forwarded to R&D), there is nothing else for me to do. It's Samsung's turn. (Or other people's turn, who want to inquire them about these issues.)

Regards,
Jan

 

[Jan Behrens]

[...]

If the current (1.3) AF+lock implementation did NOT lock up the command wheel or the other controls, would you say we have a good solution from Samsung?

I have just answered that question in my response to bpjod. In short, "I'm not sure."

[...] that there is simply a single remaining bug in the implementation, namely that the control wheel is not enabled. This is likely a flag setting is firmware that was missed.

It might be a bit more complex than that, but I believe fixing this will be much easier than, for example, improving autofocus performance.

[...]

I am hopefully you will continue to post great thoughtful notes such as these. Maybe you can look at focus issues during video next?

Which focus issues do you mean? Performance or handling/configuration?

Regards,

Marc

Regards,
Jan

 

[Jan Behrens]

You can lock focus with your lens and still keep control of everything else if that is what you want.

Not everyone owns (or uses) a lens with an AF/MF switch, as already explained in this response regarding a different bug (autofocus in movie mode). Therefore, your proposal is not applicable in all cases.

Furthermore, refocussing (with autofocus) would then require three steps:

• re-enable AF
• half-press shutter button (or AF ON button)
• switch off AF again

This is certainly not the same as back-button autofocus (which this thread was about).

Regards,
Jan

 

[Jan Behrens]

Jan,

Re-reading this post (studying, really) and I'm wondering how C-AF plays into this discussion.

If you are using single AF, then this all seems very straight-forward, but what of the C-AF scenario. If I am using C-AF, I assume I am doing something (using a back button) and no longer thinking about focus since the camera continues to change focus.

I read the Steve Perry article someone else here recommended, and he says this about BB focusing in general:

"Beats trying to switch back and forth from single shot AF to continuous AF, that’s for sure." I don't get this. How does BB focus impact a possible need to switch from single AF to C-AF?

Marc

I think the cited sentence from Steve Perry's article means the following:

If you have a button on the back, that activates (continuous) autofocus whenever you press (and hold) it, then you have both advantages from single AF and continuous AF combined. Pressing that focus button on the back once and releasing it will focus once (like single AF on half-press of the shutter button). Pressing the back-button and holding it will make the camera behave like in continuous AF mode.

Regards,
Jan