EM5 MK2 High ISO Banding P20 and PL25

[Dave Lively]

one comment/reply was that the fella always uses e-shutter EXCEPT for with flash.

i'm no expert but.... i think that fella is not right?

a typical flash fires at real high speed (except to FP-TTL where it fires in bursts) so there would be no frequency related issues like the OPs with the artificial light sources previously discussed on this thread.

The best way to think of an electronic shutter is a virtual slit that travels from top to bottom. The slit starts when the camera clears a row in the sensor and ends when it reads the data. The virtual slit always takes a fixes amount of time to move across the sensor being limited by how fast it can read the data. With my GX-7 this takes about 1/15 of a second, it looks like the new EM-5 II is quicker at about 1/25. To achieve faster shutter speed than 1/25 you have a slit that covers less than the full frame.

So unless you can live with a very slow flash sync speed of 1/25 or longer you cannot use a flash with the electronic shutter or you would get a bright band in an otherwise dark frame. Since the GX7 would require 1/15 or longer the flash is disabled when the electronic shutter is enabled so you do not have a choice. A flash sync that slow would be unusable most of the time so disabling the flash was probably a good choice. Even if the EM-5 II allows flash with the electronic shutter you will not want to use that combination except under special circumstances.

 

[Mingjai]

...

My understanding is that this banding occurs using e-shutter with CFL or halogens, but not basic incandescents. Because the lights are cycling at 60hz, the time between two zeros of the wave is 1/120s. That means you need shutter speeds slower than that to capture at least one full cycle.

...

For CFLs, whose cycle is even more pronounced than halogens, shooting at slower than 1/120s should be general practice whether using e-shutter or mechanical shutter.

Strongly disagree with halogens. Halogen lighting is the same as incandescent lighting, no effect. Halogen is a type of incandescent bulb.

Depending on the control mode, LED can have this banding effect, as well a fluorescent lighting and some neon lighting...at least at the last bar I was at using an e-shutter.

Maybe the same banding happens with normal incandescents as well, I don't have any around to test. But to demonstrate the banding with halogens, here are two shots I just took of the halogen lamp in my office. Only other light source is the window behind me.


Mechanical Shutter


Electronic Shutter

 

[Big Ga]

I will be interested to learn whether the E-M5 II sensor is also prone to the special banding issues that have been shown to occur (inconsistently) in combination with the Panasonic 20mm.

I tested my (bandy!) 20mm on a EM5II up to ISO6400. I could not see any banding. Hence one of the reasons I suspect its the EM1 sensor and not the EM5 sensor.

However this was JPG only, and its possible the NR was taking any banding out. The files did seem, er ... rather clean!

 

[TN Args]

I tested my (bandy!) 20mm on a EM5II up to ISO6400. I could not see any banding. Hence one of the reasons I suspect its the EM1 sensor and not the EM5 sensor.

An updated Sony sensor could be updated in numerous ways, including fixing this issue. Or not actually a fix, but a technology change for other reasons that simply isn't susceptible in the same way.

I definitely wouldn't use this as a reason for arguing that the new M5 uses an M1 (Panasonic) sensor.

"Setsuya Kataoka says that E-M5 Mark II has a new sensor compared to the E-M5. The new sensor will enable a silent electronic shutter."

 

[dulynoted]

Ok a little off topic but have you tried to use an off camera flash with the electronic shutter yet? If so where you capable of forcing the camera to exceed the flash sync speed? If you could try it out I would love to know.

 

[rclatter]

I was trying to figure this out this morning - showing a coworker the Flash units I picked up,m and couldn't enable flash on the EM5-mkii at all. FInally switched from e-shutter to anti-shock and then flash was re-enabled. Unless I have some other setting that conflicts, it appears the E-M5 Mark ii does not allow flash when e-shutter is used.

 

[dulynoted]

I was trying to figure this out this morning - showing a coworker the Flash units I picked up,m and couldn't enable flash on the EM5-mkii at all. FInally switched from e-shutter to anti-shock and then flash was re-enabled. Unless I have some other setting that conflicts, it appears the E-M5 Mark ii does not allow flash when e-shutter is used.

thats weird. A few reviews pointed out that olympus said a 1/20 sync with e shutter. Maybe they removed it from the production model.

 

[rclatter]

There could be something else I was missing, or a setting I would need to have set.

I was trying to use a manual flash (no ttl) not the bundled one.

When I get time I'll investigate further.

The way the Oly menus are there is quite possibly some other setting I have set which caused it to be grayed out. The quick fix was to switch from silent mode to anti-shock mode.

 

[Ulfric M Douglas]

As Big Ga already indicated, what you've shared here is not the kind of banding that is specific to the combination of the Panasonic 20mm and the Sony sensor used in the E-M5, E-M10, E-P5, E-PL5, E-PL6 and GH3 (I think that's a complete and correct list of m43 cameras that use that specific Sony sensor).

Nowhere near complete, but correct as far as you got.

I see that I forgot the E-PM2. Not sure about the E-PL7.

Any others I missed?

I think that's it for right now. I have an e-pL7 and believe it to be the Sony sensor but haven't checked with a tapemeasure yet.

 

[danslides]

Thanks everyone!

I had a little freak out moment there lol

Too late to change the thread title so as not to cause unnecessary concern or even internet rumours?

 

[Big Ga]

I tested my (bandy!) 20mm on a EM5II up to ISO6400. I could not see any banding. Hence one of the reasons I suspect its the EM1 sensor and not the EM5 sensor.

An updated Sony sensor could be updated in numerous ways, including fixing this issue. Or not actually a fix, but a technology change for other reasons that simply isn't susceptible in the same way.

Possibly. But they've pumped out model after model with Sony sensors in the past and all of them band.

I definitely wouldn't use this as a reason for arguing that the new M5 uses an M1 (Panasonic) sensor.

Who's arguing? you maybe.

"Setsuya Kataoka says that E-M5 Mark II has a new sensor compared to the E-M5. The new sensor will enable a silent electronic shutter."

Well I definitely wouldn't use this as a reason for arguing anything. The original EM5 sensor was capable of silent electronic shuttering. Olympus just chose not to fully implement it at the time!

 

[TN Args]

I tested my (bandy!) 20mm on a EM5II up to ISO6400. I could not see any banding. Hence one of the reasons I suspect its the EM1 sensor and not the EM5 sensor.

An updated Sony sensor could be updated in numerous ways, including fixing this issue. Or not actually a fix, but a technology change for other reasons that simply isn't susceptible in the same way.

Possibly. But they've pumped out model after model with Sony sensors in the past and all of them band.

I definitely wouldn't use this as a reason for arguing that the new M5 uses an M1 (Panasonic) sensor.

Who's arguing? you maybe.

"Setsuya Kataoka says that E-M5 Mark II has a new sensor compared to the E-M5. The new sensor will enable a silent electronic shutter."

Well I definitely wouldn't use this as a reason for arguing anything. The original EM5 sensor was capable of silent electronic shuttering. Olympus just chose not to fully implement it at the time!

Take it up with Satsuma if you think he's wrong!

P.S. don't over-react to my using the word 'arguing'. You seem to have a negative bias around the word that I don't attach to it. I used it in the dictionary sense of 'arguing one's case'. It means nothing more than putting one side of a logical discussion, and is a perfectly respectable activity. I mean nothing negative.

--
Arg

 

[TN Args]

I was trying to figure this out this morning - showing a coworker the Flash units I picked up,m and couldn't enable flash on the EM5-mkii at all. FInally switched from e-shutter to anti-shock and then flash was re-enabled. Unless I have some other setting that conflicts, it appears the E-M5 Mark ii does not allow flash when e-shutter is used.

If it is like my GX7, there are two modes of e-shutter engagement. One is called Silent Mode -- it should really be called Stealth Mode because it disables everything that makes it easy to tell a shot is being fired off: mechanical shutter, flash, AF assist light.... The other is called Electronic Shutter and does nothing more than turn off the mechanical shutter. Maybe the Oly is the same?

 

[Big Ga]

I was trying to figure this out this morning - showing a coworker the Flash units I picked up,m and couldn't enable flash on the EM5-mkii at all. FInally switched from e-shutter to anti-shock and then flash was re-enabled. Unless I have some other setting that conflicts, it appears the E-M5 Mark ii does not allow flash when e-shutter is used.

If it is like my GX7, there are two modes of e-shutter engagement. One is called Silent Mode -- it should really be called Stealth Mode because it disables everything that makes it easy to tell a shot is being fired off: mechanical shutter, flash, AF assist light.... The other is called Electronic Shutter and does nothing more than turn off the mechanical shutter. Maybe the Oly is the same?

Engaging e-shutter mode on the GX7 does NOT do 'nothing more than turn off the mechanical shutter', because it also disables any flash triggering.

 

[Chas2]

...

My understanding is that this banding occurs using e-shutter with CFL or halogens, but not basic incandescents. Because the lights are cycling at 60hz, the time between two zeros of the wave is 1/120s. That means you need shutter speeds slower than that to capture at least one full cycle.

...

For CFLs, whose cycle is even more pronounced than halogens, shooting at slower than 1/120s should be general practice whether using e-shutter or mechanical shutter.

Strongly disagree with halogens. Halogen lighting is the same as incandescent lighting, no effect. Halogen is a type of incandescent bulb.

Depending on the control mode, LED can have this banding effect, as well a fluorescent lighting and some neon lighting...at least at the last bar I was at using an e-shutter.

Maybe the same banding happens with normal incandescents as well, I don't have any around to test. But to demonstrate the banding with halogens, here are two shots I just took of the halogen lamp in my office. Only other light source is the window behind me.


Mechanical Shutter


Electronic Shutter

Highly interesting! Never seen it with incandescent lighting before! I will have to experiment.

Is the light above on any kind of dimmer? What is the AC source? 120v 60Hz?

It just so happens I have both old style magnetic and newer electronic dimmers for halogens, and incandescents. Might as well try it on my LEDs also!

 

[TN Args]

I was trying to figure this out this morning - showing a coworker the Flash units I picked up,m and couldn't enable flash on the EM5-mkii at all. FInally switched from e-shutter to anti-shock and then flash was re-enabled. Unless I have some other setting that conflicts, it appears the E-M5 Mark ii does not allow flash when e-shutter is used.

If it is like my GX7, there are two modes of e-shutter engagement. One is called Silent Mode -- it should really be called Stealth Mode because it disables everything that makes it easy to tell a shot is being fired off: mechanical shutter, flash, AF assist light.... The other is called Electronic Shutter and does nothing more than turn off the mechanical shutter. Maybe the Oly is the same?

Engaging e-shutter mode on the GX7 does NOT do 'nothing more than turn off the mechanical shutter', because it also disables any flash triggering.

My mistake. But point being it's worth checking if the Oly has more than one e-shutter mode and what they do.
--
Arg

 

[Mingjai]

...

My understanding is that this banding occurs using e-shutter with CFL or halogens, but not basic incandescents. Because the lights are cycling at 60hz, the time between two zeros of the wave is 1/120s. That means you need shutter speeds slower than that to capture at least one full cycle.

...

For CFLs, whose cycle is even more pronounced than halogens, shooting at slower than 1/120s should be general practice whether using e-shutter or mechanical shutter.

Strongly disagree with halogens. Halogen lighting is the same as incandescent lighting, no effect. Halogen is a type of incandescent bulb.

Depending on the control mode, LED can have this banding effect, as well a fluorescent lighting and some neon lighting...at least at the last bar I was at using an e-shutter.

Maybe the same banding happens with normal incandescents as well, I don't have any around to test. But to demonstrate the banding with halogens, here are two shots I just took of the halogen lamp in my office. Only other light source is the window behind me.


Mechanical Shutter


Electronic Shutter

Highly interesting! Never seen it with incandescent lighting before! I will have to experiment.

Is the light above on any kind of dimmer? What is the AC source? 120v 60Hz?

It just so happens I have both old style magnetic and newer electronic dimmers for halogens, and incandescents. Might as well try it on my LEDs also!

Standard US AC source, 120V@60hz. No dimmer of any sort. I get the same effect with all my halogens at home, whether they are in standard A bulbs or in PAR38 floods.

I believe the explanation is in the dpreview thread I referenced a few posts up.

 

[secretworld]

For everyone wondering about FLASH and shutters. A mechanical shutter needs to be fully open to be able to fire a flash, this is called the flash sync speed and we all understand this. An electronic first curtain is compatible with flash as it is also fully open and then the flash can fire, this is like the 0s AS on Oly. A full electronic shutter is at this point of technical development never fully open, it reads in horizontal bands one after the other so the very short flash will only illuminate one band and is unusable.

The solution is a global electronic shutter which reads the full sensor in one time (they are trying but not there yet). The GM1/5 shutters have a slower sync speed not because of the electronic first curtain, but because of the slower mechanical shutter (which is not using a spring as other shutters but a stepping motor).

 

[Anders W]

I have a feeling the EM5II has the GH4/EM1 sensor base, not the same one as in the EM5 as has been bandied about here.

What gives you that feeling?

 

[Anders W]

For everyone wondering about FLASH and shutters. A mechanical shutter needs to be fully open to be able to fire a flash, this is called the flash sync speed and we all understand this. An electronic first curtain is compatible with flash as it is also fully open and then the flash can fire, this is like the 0s AS on Oly. A full electronic shutter is at this point of technical development never fully open, it reads in horizontal bands one after the other so the very short flash will only illuminate one band and is unusable.

Hi Vincent,

An electronic shutter of the kind we currently have can be "fully open" (open across the entire frame simultaneously) too. It's just that the exposure time must be longer than the time it takes to scan the entire sensor. Currently, this means 1/25 s or slower depending on exactly which camera we are talking about.

The solution is a global electronic shutter which reads the full sensor in one time (they are trying but not there yet). The GM1/5 shutters have a slower sync speed not because of the electronic first curtain, but because of the slower mechanical shutter (which is not using a spring as other shutters but a stepping motor).

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http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/6757037874/albums/desktop