"What Should Canon and Nikon Do?"

What would be interesting would be to hear from people who have some genuinely fresh ideas. More DR, more pixels, sharper corners, etc., just isn't going to cut it.

Anyone?
a more modular approach to the system as far as sensor / viewfinders / processing / etc. allowing for smaller, at times far more profitable and quicker upgrades to all or part.

Open Source API and a handshake to the ML community.

Better integration of video and stills.

A more connected ecosystem from camera through the systematic workflow.
Thom Hogan is that you under a second account? ;)
in this case I totally agree with where Thom has been going - and think about it, he's been saying this for 5+ years now.

phones are improving on all fronts - ecosystem, integration, and how they fit into your life. cameras are not. MILC's will fall the same way. people will look at the small camera and go - why do i need this when i have my phone? there's a reason why MILC's have totally missed all projections.

ILC's can't keep going the way they are .. even MILC's will be replaced as archaic - which they are actually, MILC's have been around far longer than SLR's.
 
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What should Canon and Nikon do? This is a hard one to answer. I am sure clever brains in Canon and Nikon HQ with much better knowledge (market trends, technology etc.) than we posses are scratching their heads and pondering the same question.

Lets have a look at this.



Its not quite a doomsday scenario for Camera manufacturers, but it is not too far.

Some people here suggested that Canon and Nikon should invest more in mirrorless because that's the future. That's what a lot of people thought back in 2010 and they made some predictions (Graph at right upper corner). See how miserably they failed. I am sure there are many reasons why people didn't adopt mirrorless as was expected. One of them would be that Canon and Nikon wasn't too serious about it (for obvious reasons). After all, Canon and Nikon still decide what majority of the people buy when they are buying a serious camera. Other brands are either too small or just video game and TV makers, not a camera company. For now at least mirrorless is a niche market and without Japan it would be dead by now.

Canon and Nikon have two major problems to overcome.

1. Poor worldwide economy

2. Smartphone

They can't do much about #1

They can try doing something about #2. At the moment their (and other companies) approach seems like making small fixed lens cameras which have features smartphone can't match, such as better IQ with larger sensor, better zoom, waterproofing etc.

Canon and Nikon know that their DSLR sales are down not because of mirrorless or smartphone, but because of world economy and the maturity of their products. Think about it, lots of people with D700 or 5DII have no incentive to upgrade. For them higher pixel count or improved DR don't mean much. They can still make excellent pictures with their current cameras.

At the end it is not going to be Fuji or Sony who will determine the future of camera market and its survival and relevance in the changing world of photography in the age of internet, facebook and instagram; it is going to be Canon and Nikon, at least for foreseeable future. Their market will always be those who want more than what smartphone can deliver. For them they will have to introduce some revolutionary technology with regard to sensor, lens, flash and connectivity. Before that they need to do enough to keep existing users happy with incremental upgrades.

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/catch45/
Nice colorful charts but they just show what happened in the past.

I tend to disagree with the notion of a "cameralyptic". so many pundits were wrong when they dismissed the american car industry. Is easy to show stats during the crisis and stick with current situations.

But the market for high end cameras to me it seems it may expand. I am shocked about the huge number of very young people in my photography groups using high end Nikon, Canon and the new E-mount Sony cameras. And I am talking about amateur photographers using Canon 1Dx, Nikon D4s, Sony A7r.

Then, there are at least six potential sources for growth:

1. technological replacement. People moving up from current cameras. In this scenario, manufacturers can growth through innovation.

2. Demographics. The world population continues to expand at 1.9% a year. This is the natural growth for each market: entry level, medium level, high end or advanced level.

3. More disposable income in the BRIc countries: Brazil, Rusia, India, China and other emerging markets where the new middle class can afford luxury items the previous generations never heard about.

4. despite the whole communications industry changing and evolving, there is a growing need for images and documentary. The information society is also an image society.

5. replacement due to obsolescence: people that needs to replace the gear: specialty professional photographers and news agenciesécorporations.

6. New markets and micro segments: MILC will become a segment per se, with its own dynamics. Full Frame dslr may continue to advance, not as fast as in the past but it wil innovate: wi-fi, geo-tracking and geo-coding, wider DR, better focus capabilities, low light performance, etc.

The advancements in entry level models and cell phones won't impact the industry significantly in the long run. People with no time, little interest in photography that gets satisfied with a cell phone never will buy a DSLR anyways. Then, this is a market that never existed for dslr. It is the same for example for me: I hate mostly everything related with water. i never will buy a sailboat , a kayak or even a vest life :) Does it matter for the nautical industry? not at all, I am not part of that market. For example, in my family all my siblings love photography, except my younger sister. There is nothing in the world that will make her buy a dslr or even a P&S. There are so many DSLR models lying around our places and she never touches a complex camera. Does it matter for the whole industry that people like her only enjoys using a cell phone for snapshots? I don't think so.

Then, all this thing about the cameralyptic I think is getting overstated. The industry goes over adjustment cycles, as any other industry, but I believe there is potential for growth in new markets, new segments, new applications, and the population growth and income growth in developing economies.
 
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Low end DSLR is still much cheaper than mirrorless for now, the price is coming down.

When it is lower than DSLR, it will overnight wipe out sale of Canon and nikon, the two company will have huge retrenchment in Thailand and Japan. They will join Kodak and Nokia.
 
Low end DSLR is still much cheaper than mirrorless for now, the price is coming down.

When it is lower than DSLR, it will overnight wipe out sale of Canon and nikon, the two company will have huge retrenchment in Thailand and Japan. They will join Kodak and Nokia.
Right. Thanks for that insight.
 
canon sensor is going downhill. They are limited by their lithography tool, which over the year became in-competitive compare to rivals.

Sony use an European build lithography tool.

Canon refuse to use the european build lithograpy tool, because canon also make their own tool, but now just outdated technology.

So you have sony, nikon, olympus, fujifilm using sony fab that use world most advance lithography tool, and canon camera using their own outdated lithography tool to make sensor.

It is downhill trend.

Time to move on.
 
canon sensor is going downhill. They are limited by their lithography tool, which over the year became in-competitive compare to rivals.

Sony use an European build lithography tool.

Canon refuse to use the european build lithograpy tool, because canon also make their own tool, but now just outdated technology.

So you have sony, nikon, olympus, fujifilm using sony fab that use world most advance lithography tool, and canon camera using their own outdated lithography tool to make sensor.

It is downhill trend.

Time to move on.
Sensor technology is only one aspect of the camera technology: there are autofocus and image processing engines, which canon is still is among the most advanced.

Also sensor development is a two horse race. One moment Sony will be ahead and then another company will come with a breakthrough and will keep the lead until the competitor comes with something else.

I don't see a downhill trend, as despite the criticism, Canon sensors of 4 years ago still perform very well. Just look at the results from the Canon 6D, 5D III and 1Dx. Sooner or later Canon will release the new technologies they have been working on for the last 4 years. It is not a static world.

And what kind of litography tool is Pentax using for their own sensors?
 
Sensor technology is only one aspect of the camera technology: there are autofocus and image processing engines, which canon is still is among the most advanced.

Also sensor development is a two horse race. One moment Sony will be ahead and then another company will come with a breakthrough and will keep the lead until the competitor comes with something else.

I don't see a downhill trend, as despite the criticism, Canon sensors of 4 years ago still perform very well. Just look at the results from the Canon 6D, 5D III and 1Dx. Sooner or later Canon will release the new technologies they have been working on for the last 4 years. It is not a static world.

And what kind of litography tool is Pentax using for their own sensors?
yeah , tell the person who using the RAW software and trying to bring out the shadow. Did not see it? Are you joking. Canon were kicking sony sensors in everything, EVERYTHING. Then as European lithography improve and canon lithography give up on highend. Their sensor performance gone down.

Pentax ? dun know. dun care. The last good camera from them is ME super.
 
canon sensor is going downhill. They are limited by their lithography tool, which over the year became in-competitive compare to rivals.
canon now has state of the art sub 10nm lithography equipment. not to mention canon does not even use any of their KrF process Lithography systems for their sensors (to date). no one for sensor fab is using top of the line latest and greatest lithography systems for sensors.
Sony use an European build lithography tool.

Canon refuse to use the european build lithograpy tool, because canon also make their own tool, but now just outdated technology.

So you have sony, nikon, olympus, fujifilm using sony fab that use world most advance lithography tool, and canon camera using their own outdated lithography tool to make sensor.
hmm i suspect you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about.
It is downhill trend.

Time to move on.
maybe you should.
 
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Low end DSLR is still much cheaper than mirrorless for now, the price is coming down.

When it is lower than DSLR, it will overnight wipe out sale of Canon and nikon, the two company will have huge retrenchment in Thailand and Japan. They will join Kodak and Nokia.
lol
 
canon sensor is going downhill. They are limited by their lithography tool, which over the year became in-competitive compare to rivals.

Sony use an European build lithography tool.

Canon refuse to use the european build lithograpy tool, because canon also make their own tool, but now just outdated technology.

So you have sony, nikon, olympus, fujifilm using sony fab that use world most advance lithography tool, and canon camera using their own outdated lithography tool to make sensor.

It is downhill trend.

Time to move on.
Sensor technology is only one aspect of the camera technology: there are autofocus and image processing engines, which canon is still is among the most advanced.

Also sensor development is a two horse race. One moment Sony will be ahead and then another company will come with a breakthrough and will keep the lead until the competitor comes with something else.

I don't see a downhill trend, as despite the criticism, Canon sensors of 4 years ago still perform very well. Just look at the results from the Canon 6D, 5D III and 1Dx. Sooner or later Canon will release the new technologies they have been working on for the last 4 years. It is not a static world.

And what kind of litography tool is Pentax using for their own sensors?
Pretty certain that Pentax sources their sensors from Sony too.

There are several things at play here, the sensor and the ADC which is important to differentiate and also RAW files vs JPEG's. In very basic form the sensor is the device that collects photons and converts their value to an analog signal and the ADC is the circuitry that converts the analog signal to digital. Think of RAW files as being like negative film that need to be processed to obtain a satisfactory image and JPEG's as slide film that are pretty much used as is out of camera.

For the vast majority of images captured with DSLRS Canon's IQ is every bit as good as the competition. The pro market consisting of PJ's and sports shooters is dominated by people shooting JPEG's and Canon's JPEG's are excellent so this group has little to no issue with Canon. There is another group that shoots RAW but doesn't do a lot of heavy processing to their files and they too are fine with Canon's IQ. It's the RAW shooters that like to push the limits of their RAW files where Canon's ADC design (not sensor) shows some warts.

Canon's base sensor (the silicon) is from what I understand some of the best available but it's their off-chip ADC implementation that becomes an issue at low ISO's as far as read noise. Sony moved to an on sensor column-parallel ADC implementation years ago and that affords them very low read noise of which the benefit is realized at low ISO's. At mid to high ISO where read noise is not an issue Canon's better sensor design evens the score and even takes a slight lead in some cases.

Point being if you shoot only JPEG's it doesn't matter. If you do shoot RAW but rarely push your files in the shadow areas it doesn't matter. If you shoot RAW and push the limits of the capabilities of your RAW files it matters and can matter a lot at low ISO's. Certainly the last category is the smallest group of people shooting with DSLR's overall but for them Canon has a serious weakness.

Bob
 
Hi folks,

With many of you that own both DSLRs and mirrorless systems, what would you like to see in future camera development and technology?
I think they will continue to co-exist.
I have absolutely no affiliation with thecamerastoretv. I'm just a guy that's been struggling with the decision to maintain or sell my wonderful (but heavy) DSLR system or fully comment to mirrorless. I've got about 15 years with a camera brand (brand not important) and I'm more excited with the mirrorless offerings than traditional DSLRs despite their capabilities (but I am tempted).
My 6D and D90 are still about 2 notches above in responsiveness compared to X-M1.
I know some of you won't make the switch (and that's perfectly fine), but what would you like to see from the top 2 camera manufactures?
Many things but only for me not for other buyers. Among them are:

1. Nikon to come up with an entry level DSLR s that will meter with AI lenses.

2. Canon to come up with new versions of 6D. One that will be smaller and cheaper still than the current one. Another one that will be pretty similar with the current model but with the 5dmk3's AF.
It's nt my intention to spark a debate over which company is better or whether DSLRs is better than mirrorless or vice versa.


Happy Shooting,

Drew830
 
canon sensor is going downhill. They are limited by their lithography tool, which over the year became in-competitive compare to rivals.
canon now has state of the art sub 10nm lithography equipment. not to mention canon does not even use any of their KrF process Lithography systems for their sensors (to date).
Sony use an European build lithography tool.

Canon refuse to use the european build lithograpy tool, because canon also make their own tool, but now just outdated technology.

So you have sony, nikon, olympus, fujifilm using sony fab that use world most advance lithography tool, and canon camera using their own outdated lithography tool to make sensor.
hmm i suspect you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about.
It is downhill trend.

Time to move on.
maybe you should.
no one for sensor fab is using top of the line latest and greatest lithography systems for sensors.

What a load of BS.

Make me LOL.
 
canon sensor is going downhill. They are limited by their lithography tool, which over the year became in-competitive compare to rivals.

Sony use an European build lithography tool.

Canon refuse to use the european build lithograpy tool, because canon also make their own tool, but now just outdated technology.

So you have sony, nikon, olympus, fujifilm using sony fab that use world most advance lithography tool, and canon camera using their own outdated lithography tool to make sensor.

It is downhill trend.

Time to move on.
Sensor technology is only one aspect of the camera technology: there are autofocus and image processing engines, which canon is still is among the most advanced.

Also sensor development is a two horse race. One moment Sony will be ahead and then another company will come with a breakthrough and will keep the lead until the competitor comes with something else.

I don't see a downhill trend, as despite the criticism, Canon sensors of 4 years ago still perform very well. Just look at the results from the Canon 6D, 5D III and 1Dx. Sooner or later Canon will release the new technologies they have been working on for the last 4 years. It is not a static world.

And what kind of litography tool is Pentax using for their own sensors?
Pretty certain that Pentax sources their sensors from Sony too.

There are several things at play here, the sensor and the ADC which is important to differentiate and also RAW files vs JPEG's. In very basic form the sensor is the device that collects photons and converts their value to an analog signal and the ADC is the circuitry that converts the analog signal to digital. Think of RAW files as being like negative film that need to be processed to obtain a satisfactory image and JPEG's as slide film that are pretty much used as is out of camera.

For the vast majority of images captured with DSLRS Canon's IQ is every bit as good as the competition. The pro market consisting of PJ's and sports shooters is dominated by people shooting JPEG's and Canon's JPEG's are excellent so this group has little to no issue with Canon. There is another group that shoots RAW but doesn't do a lot of heavy processing to their files and they too are fine with Canon's IQ. It's the RAW shooters that like to push the limits of their RAW files where Canon's ADC design (not sensor) shows some warts.

Canon's base sensor (the silicon) is from what I understand some of the best available but it's their off-chip ADC implementation that becomes an issue at low ISO's as far as read noise. Sony moved to an on sensor column-parallel ADC implementation years ago and that affords them very low read noise of which the benefit is realized at low ISO's. At mid to high ISO where read noise is not an issue Canon's better sensor design evens the score and even takes a slight lead in some cases.

Point being if you shoot only JPEG's it doesn't matter. If you do shoot RAW but rarely push your files in the shadow areas it doesn't matter. If you shoot RAW and push the limits of the capabilities of your RAW files it matters and can matter a lot at low ISO's. Certainly the last category is the smallest group of people shooting with DSLR's overall but for them Canon has a serious weakness.

Bob

--
http://www.pbase.com/rwbaron
You were doing great in the post above right up until the end. In-camera HDR and dynamic range boosters do take advantage of more DR, even for JPEGs. That said, photojournalists/sports photographers often shoot at higher ISOs, where Canon and Sony sensors are basically tied. The catch-up point varies depending on the cameras in question but IIRC it's somewhere around 1600 or 3200 ISO.
 
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canon sensor is going downhill. They are limited by their lithography tool, which over the year became in-competitive compare to rivals.
canon now has state of the art sub 10nm lithography equipment. not to mention canon does not even use any of their KrF process Lithography systems for their sensors (to date).
Sony use an European build lithography tool.

Canon refuse to use the european build lithograpy tool, because canon also make their own tool, but now just outdated technology.

So you have sony, nikon, olympus, fujifilm using sony fab that use world most advance lithography tool, and canon camera using their own outdated lithography tool to make sensor.
hmm i suspect you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about.
It is downhill trend.

Time to move on.
maybe you should.
no one for sensor fab is using top of the line latest and greatest lithography systems for sensors.

What a load of BS.

Make me LOL.
really? so let's see how many fabs are using 14nm processes? 20nm? 40nm? oh right. NO ONE.

I believe sony is JUST starting to use 90nm for cellphone sensors - that's like 6-8 years old now? 180nm is more common - that's 10 to 15 years old?

canon's current lithography is 90nm - which is far beyond anything used in APS-C or FF sensors to date.

LOL indeed.
 
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Hi folks,

With many of you that own both DSLRs and mirrorless systems, what would you like to see in future camera development and technology?
I think they will continue to co-exist.
I have absolutely no affiliation with thecamerastoretv. I'm just a guy that's been struggling with the decision to maintain or sell my wonderful (but heavy) DSLR system or fully comment to mirrorless. I've got about 15 years with a camera brand (brand not important) and I'm more excited with the mirrorless offerings than traditional DSLRs despite their capabilities (but I am tempted).
My 6D and D90 are still about 2 notches above in responsiveness compared to X-M1.
I know some of you won't make the switch (and that's perfectly fine), but what would you like to see from the top 2 camera manufactures?
Many things but only for me not for other buyers. Among them are:

1. Nikon to come up with an entry level DSLR s that will meter with AI lenses.

2. Canon to come up with new versions of 6D. One that will be smaller and cheaper still than the current one. Another one that will be pretty similar with the current model but with the 5dmk3's AF.
a full frame SL1 would be pretty sweet actually.
 
really? so let's see how many fabs are using 14nm processes? 20nm? 40nm? oh right. NO ONE.

I believe sony is JUST starting to use 90nm for cellphone sensors - that's like 6-8 years old now? 180nm is more common - that's 10 to 15 years old?

canon's current lithography is 90nm - which is far beyond anything used in APS-C or FF sensors to date.

LOL indeed.
maybe the photocell, what about the onchip ADC. you expect them to use 90nm for that too?

you are so funny.
 
canon sensor is going downhill. They are limited by their lithography tool, which over the year became in-competitive compare to rivals.
canon now has state of the art sub 10nm lithography equipment. not to mention canon does not even use any of their KrF process Lithography systems for their sensors (to date).
Sony use an European build lithography tool.

Canon refuse to use the european build lithograpy tool, because canon also make their own tool, but now just outdated technology.

So you have sony, nikon, olympus, fujifilm using sony fab that use world most advance lithography tool, and canon camera using their own outdated lithography tool to make sensor.
hmm i suspect you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about.
It is downhill trend.

Time to move on.
maybe you should.
no one for sensor fab is using top of the line latest and greatest lithography systems for sensors.

What a load of BS.

Make me LOL.
really? so let's see how many fabs are using 14nm processes? 20nm? 40nm? oh right. NO ONE.

I believe sony is JUST starting to use 90nm for cellphone sensors - that's like 6-8 years old now? 180nm is more common - that's 10 to 15 years old?

canon's current lithography is 90nm - which is far beyond anything used in APS-C or FF sensors to date.

LOL indeed.
Compared to CPUs and even GPUs, image sensors are very simple and do not have as pressing of a need for smaller nodes. That said, image sensors have been at 90nm for years now. For instance the Sony RX100 is 90nm copper BEOL: http://www.imagesensors.org/Past Workshops/2013 Workshop/2013 Papers/01-1_006_Fontaine.pdf
 
With the D800 hand grip, but inflatable, and then everyone will be happy.
 
really? so let's see how many fabs are using 14nm processes? 20nm? 40nm? oh right. NO ONE.

I believe sony is JUST starting to use 90nm for cellphone sensors - that's like 6-8 years old now? 180nm is more common - that's 10 to 15 years old?

canon's current lithography is 90nm - which is far beyond anything used in APS-C or FF sensors to date.

LOL indeed.
maybe the photocell, what about the onchip ADC. you expect them to use 90nm for that too?

you are so funny.
chipworks identifies that 180nm was used for the D800 36Mp sensor - and the D3/D4 and a900 sensors used 250nm to 350nm.

so umm yeah.. try again?
 
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canon sensor is going downhill. They are limited by their lithography tool, which over the year became in-competitive compare to rivals.
canon now has state of the art sub 10nm lithography equipment. not to mention canon does not even use any of their KrF process Lithography systems for their sensors (to date).
Sony use an European build lithography tool.

Canon refuse to use the european build lithograpy tool, because canon also make their own tool, but now just outdated technology.

So you have sony, nikon, olympus, fujifilm using sony fab that use world most advance lithography tool, and canon camera using their own outdated lithography tool to make sensor.
hmm i suspect you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about.
It is downhill trend.

Time to move on.
maybe you should.
no one for sensor fab is using top of the line latest and greatest lithography systems for sensors.

What a load of BS.

Make me LOL.
really? so let's see how many fabs are using 14nm processes? 20nm? 40nm? oh right. NO ONE.

I believe sony is JUST starting to use 90nm for cellphone sensors - that's like 6-8 years old now? 180nm is more common - that's 10 to 15 years old?

canon's current lithography is 90nm - which is far beyond anything used in APS-C or FF sensors to date.

LOL indeed.
Compared to CPUs and even GPUs, image sensors are very simple and do not have as pressing of a need for smaller nodes. That said, image sensors have been at 90nm for years now. For instance the Sony RX100 is 90nm copper BEOL: http://www.imagesensors.org/Past Workshops/2013 Workshop/2013 Papers/01-1_006_Fontaine.pdf
90nm is relatively new for image sensors. no full frame sensor right now in production uses anything less than 180nm.

as stated in that pdf: "The manufacturing trend for FF devices is to move off the mature 0.35 µm and 0.25 µm technology generations down to 0.18 µm design rules for Sony"

the D800 36Mp sensor is 180nm.

design rules have gone down to 45nm for smaller sensors (panasonic and sony uses 65nm i think) but none of them are within this forum or even the SLR / ILC landscape. 1" sensors and below.

which invalidates the comment the latest and greatest of lithography systems are used for sensors.

even 90nm is 5 years old, 45nm even is a full generation behind. 95nm is three geneartions? 180nm which is leading full frame sensor tech is what? 4 to 5 generations back?

as they say:

It has been the good fortune of the image sensor industry to have lagged the state-of-the-art of semiconductor device manufacturing by more than a generation.
 
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