Problem with new high end "compacts"

[VadymA]

(I am using "compact" loosely here as some are quite big, but that's what they are often called)

I have a couple of friends looking for higher end cameras. They think they want a DSLR, because that is what they associate with a high end camera after 30 years of seeing that form factor. I really think they'd be happier with cameras like the Canon G1X mk2, Panasonic FZ-1000, Sony RX100/10, etc. Those won't make them mess with expensive lenses (they will probably never buy) and have great image quality in a smaller size body. But when they see these cameras, they are turned off on first sight. The fact that these are smaller and have a fixed lens, means those who don't know better associate them with $200-400 smaller sensor cameras they've seen for the past decade. I can't get my friends to look at them seriously because they want a "real" camera.

I think these expensive "compacts" will be a tough sell, at least in the US market, for this reason. It's mostly people like us who are buying them, even though they'd likely be better than an entry DSLR for the masses.

If your friends are looking for a high-end camera to be able to produce high-end photos including sports and portraits then DSLR or MILC is still the way to go IMO. I have not seen anything yet from a compact camera samples that would make me think about ditching my heavy DSLR and lenses for those purposes. For landscapes/travel/street photography I think some high-end compacts are more than enough.

 

[mgd43]

Obviously there's no one best camera or type of camera for all people. I usually ask a few questions before giving an opinion, and I let them know that it is just an opinion. Does the size of the camera matter? What do you plan to use it for? How involved in photography do you want to get? How much do you want to spend?

It used to be easy to recommend a camera. It was either a 35mm SLR or a 35mm P&S. Now there are so many different choices from a camera phone to a DSLR that it is much harder to know what is best for someone asking your advice. That's why I try to find out as much as possible about their needs and wants.

Sometimes I recommend two cameras, one pocket size and one larger. For example, my sister-in-law has a bridge camera that she likes, but wanted something smaller. I advised her to keep the bridge and get a Panasonic LF-1. She got it and she likes it very much.

 

[D Cox]

Let them buy the best high end DSLR gear with fast lenses. When they can't figure out how to use it properly, or find it too heavy, or afraid it will be stolen, they'll sell it. Then, we can pick it up on the used market at a reasonable price!

That's how I got my Nikon F3 film SLR. I think the first owner had had it for three weeks -- it was like new.

 

[sigala1]

(I am using "compact" loosely here as some are quite big, but that's what they are often called)

I have a couple of friends looking for higher end cameras. They think they want a DSLR, because that is what they associate with a high end camera after 30 years of seeing that form factor. I really think they'd be happier with cameras like the Canon G1X mk2, Panasonic FZ-1000, Sony RX100/10, etc. Those won't make them mess with expensive lenses (they will probably never buy) and have great image quality in a smaller size body. But when they see these cameras, they are turned off on first sight. The fact that these are smaller and have a fixed lens, means those who don't know better associate them with $200-400 smaller sensor cameras they've seen for the past decade. I can't get my friends to look at them seriously because they want a "real" camera.

I think these expensive "compacts" will be a tough sell, at least in the US market, for this reason. It's mostly people like us who are buying them, even though they'd likely be better than an entry DSLR for the masses.

Even though you know that the DSLR isn't really what's photographically best for them, they want a DSLR and that will make them happy because that's what they want.

 

[tkbslc]

Right now on Amazon, using the same brand for comparison:

Canon SL1 DSLR: $599.00

With an 28-90mm equivalent 3.5-5.6

Canon T5i DSLR: $749.00

With an 28-90mm equivalent 3.5-5.6

Canon PowerShot G1X Mark II compact: $799.

With an 24-120mm equivalent f2-4

Yes, paying more for a compact camera than a DSLR is a tough sell.

It isn't if you can forego a couple extra lenses or an expensive upgraded lens. And that's the main reason I think these kinds of cameras are better. If you are the kind of person who will probably never upgrade the lens or carry more than one, then a higher end fixed-lens camera can be better. The 24-120mm f2-4 lens on the G1X II will cover low light, near ultrawide, short telephoto, portrait, and all the standard in between stuff.

Comparing to the RX10 or FZ1000 it's like a DSLR with a $400 18-250mm zoom, but it's more compact and the camera is easier to use.

 

[tkbslc]

(I am using "compact" loosely here as some are quite big, but that's what they are often called)

I have a couple of friends looking for higher end cameras. They think they want a DSLR, because that is what they associate with a high end camera after 30 years of seeing that form factor. I really think they'd be happier with cameras like the Canon G1X mk2, Panasonic FZ-1000, Sony RX100/10, etc. Those won't make them mess with expensive lenses (they will probably never buy) and have great image quality in a smaller size body. But when they see these cameras, they are turned off on first sight. The fact that these are smaller and have a fixed lens, means those who don't know better associate them with $200-400 smaller sensor cameras they've seen for the past decade. I can't get my friends to look at them seriously because they want a "real" camera.

I think these expensive "compacts" will be a tough sell, at least in the US market, for this reason. It's mostly people like us who are buying them, even though they'd likely be better than an entry DSLR for the masses.

Even though you know that the DSLR isn't really what's photographically best for them, they want a DSLR and that will make them happy because that's what they want.

Yep.

But that's why I said this is a problem for these companies making DSLR alternatives. Even though they are fantastic products that deliver on their goals, the average joe doesn't know enough about photography to realize that. So the only people that appreciate them are going to be small niche of people who already are deep into photography and are still willing to spend a ton of money on a second or third camera. At least that's the impression I get here in the US West. Everyone else thinks good camera = DSLR. Cheap camera = compact. And 9/10 people just use their phone anyway.

 

[Aberaeron]

(I am using "compact" loosely here as some are quite big, but that's what they are often called)

I have a couple of friends looking for higher end cameras. They think they want a DSLR, because that is what they associate with a high end camera after 30 years of seeing that form factor. I really think they'd be happier with cameras like the Canon G1X mk2, Panasonic FZ-1000, Sony RX100/10, etc. Those won't make them mess with expensive lenses (they will probably never buy) and have great image quality in a smaller size body. But when they see these cameras, they are turned off on first sight. The fact that these are smaller and have a fixed lens, means those who don't know better associate them with $200-400 smaller sensor cameras they've seen for the past decade. I can't get my friends to look at them seriously because they want a "real" camera.

I think these expensive "compacts" will be a tough sell, at least in the US market, for this reason. It's mostly people like us who are buying them, even though they'd likely be better than an entry DSLR for the masses.

Are you concerned that your friends will buy DSLR's or are you concerned that camera companies won't sell stock?

Either way, not really your concern. Let them buy what they want and let the manufacturers sell what they want. It is not in the least important what 'other people' do. Let them be happy. Let the camera companies succeed or fail on the strength and marketing of their products in the face of strong competition. If your friends want a DSLR, let them have it and be happy for them. I'm sure you have made YOUR view known, now let them get on with it in peace unless they ask for your advice.

I disagree. As people "in the know" it is our duty to our friends to help them make a good buying decision. Unless you don't care about your friends, in that case this post makes no sense at all. If I was a complete Noob to a field with complex buying decisions I would hope if I had a friend who was well informed in this field that I could count on good advice. Even if they told me that my ideas about that field were way off target.

Cameras are a funny thing. Many people think they are in the know, but are really unprepared to confront the wide range of options available. So they just "punt" when faced with complex decisions and default back to what they know - big DSLRs. And really, it isn't a terrible decision. But when a person really needs a more portable system (if that is the case) and we care about that person, we should feel free to inform them that there are good options to the big DSLRs.

Nothing wrong with giving them advice should they be receptive and then stepping back. The trick is in knowing when enough is enough.

 

[brownie314]

(I am using "compact" loosely here as some are quite big, but that's what they are often called)

I have a couple of friends looking for higher end cameras. They think they want a DSLR, because that is what they associate with a high end camera after 30 years of seeing that form factor. I really think they'd be happier with cameras like the Canon G1X mk2, Panasonic FZ-1000, Sony RX100/10, etc. Those won't make them mess with expensive lenses (they will probably never buy) and have great image quality in a smaller size body. But when they see these cameras, they are turned off on first sight. The fact that these are smaller and have a fixed lens, means those who don't know better associate them with $200-400 smaller sensor cameras they've seen for the past decade. I can't get my friends to look at them seriously because they want a "real" camera.

I think these expensive "compacts" will be a tough sell, at least in the US market, for this reason. It's mostly people like us who are buying them, even though they'd likely be better than an entry DSLR for the masses.

Are you concerned that your friends will buy DSLR's or are you concerned that camera companies won't sell stock?

Either way, not really your concern. Let them buy what they want and let the manufacturers sell what they want. It is not in the least important what 'other people' do. Let them be happy. Let the camera companies succeed or fail on the strength and marketing of their products in the face of strong competition. If your friends want a DSLR, let them have it and be happy for them. I'm sure you have made YOUR view known, now let them get on with it in peace unless they ask for your advice.

I disagree. As people "in the know" it is our duty to our friends to help them make a good buying decision. Unless you don't care about your friends, in that case this post makes no sense at all. If I was a complete Noob to a field with complex buying decisions I would hope if I had a friend who was well informed in this field that I could count on good advice. Even if they told me that my ideas about that field were way off target.

Cameras are a funny thing. Many people think they are in the know, but are really unprepared to confront the wide range of options available. So they just "punt" when faced with complex decisions and default back to what they know - big DSLRs. And really, it isn't a terrible decision. But when a person really needs a more portable system (if that is the case) and we care about that person, we should feel free to inform them that there are good options to the big DSLRs.

Nothing wrong with giving them advice should they be receptive and then stepping back. The trick is in knowing when enough is enough.

Well, that is more of a social problem than a camera related problem. But since you mentioned it, yes I agree - being too pushy is also a problem.

 

[sigala1]

(I am using "compact" loosely here as some are quite big, but that's what they are often called)

I have a couple of friends looking for higher end cameras. They think they want a DSLR, because that is what they associate with a high end camera after 30 years of seeing that form factor. I really think they'd be happier with cameras like the Canon G1X mk2, Panasonic FZ-1000, Sony RX100/10, etc. Those won't make them mess with expensive lenses (they will probably never buy) and have great image quality in a smaller size body. But when they see these cameras, they are turned off on first sight. The fact that these are smaller and have a fixed lens, means those who don't know better associate them with $200-400 smaller sensor cameras they've seen for the past decade. I can't get my friends to look at them seriously because they want a "real" camera.

I think these expensive "compacts" will be a tough sell, at least in the US market, for this reason. It's mostly people like us who are buying them, even though they'd likely be better than an entry DSLR for the masses.

Even though you know that the DSLR isn't really what's photographically best for them, they want a DSLR and that will make them happy because that's what they want.

Yep.

But that's why I said this is a problem for these companies making DSLR alternatives. Even though they are fantastic products that deliver on their goals, the average joe doesn't know enough about photography to realize that. So the only people that appreciate them are going to be small niche of people who already are deep into photography and are still willing to spend a ton of money on a second or third camera. At least that's the impression I get here in the US West. Everyone else thinks good camera = DSLR. Cheap camera = compact. And 9/10 people just use their phone anyway.

If the DSLR works well in Auto mode and makes good JPEGs using the default settings and the kit lens (which I presume applies to Canon Rebels), then their owners will be happy with the images when they take the DSLR out for special occasions such as birthday parties and family vacations.

 

[tkbslc]

Plus, what is so wrong with dslr's? Unless they start leaking mercury, I don't see any danger

Nothing really, other than it not always being the optimal solution. I never implied a DSLR would be bad, just that they are often in the way of picking something that would be better.

 

[Brev00]

Plus, what is so wrong with dslr's? Unless they start leaking mercury, I don't see any danger

Nothing really, other than it not always being the optimal solution. I never implied a DSLR would be bad, just that they are often in the way of picking something that would be better.

But, that is better according to you. I just happen to be suspicious of those who know more than the actual individual who is making the decision. Personally, I dislike it when someone tells me that I am not considering a better choice especially after I have researched all the relevant possibilities. Once they have stated their decision, finding flaws in their process and the marketing decisions of the camera companies seems excessive to me. You seem to be assuming you know more than these people and more than Sony and Panasonic, too. I would like to add a nice compact to my kit, but I can't see any of the higher echelon units because they are priced so high (for me). Yet, many people seem to own such units. Hmm. People make different choices than me. Go figure.

 

[Midwest]

I have a couple of friends looking for higher end cameras. They think they want a DSLR, because that is what they associate with a high end camera after 30 years of seeing that form factor. I really think they'd be happier with cameras like the Canon G1X mk2, Panasonic FZ-1000, Sony RX100/10, etc. Those won't make them mess with expensive lenses (they will probably never buy) and have great image quality in a smaller size body. But when they see these cameras, they are turned off on first sight. The fact that these are smaller and have a fixed lens, means those who don't know better associate them with $200-400 smaller sensor cameras they've seen for the past decade. I can't get my friends to look at them seriously because they want a "real" camera.

You 'really think they'd be happier with....' . But you don't KNOW, and what if they aren't?

If someone is going to spend hundreds of dollars on a camera, don't stick your neck out too far out of evangelism for (or against) a particular type. If they take your advice and aren't happy a few months later for some reason, what did you gain by pushing them to the wrong decision? Nothing - at best.

I make a point of not telling someone what to spend their money on. I spent my own, that's the only vote I had. I'm happy with what I have but I can't tell for sure what someone else will prefer.

The Kinks had a song called "I'm Not Like Everybody Else".

 

[tkbslc]

Plus, what is so wrong with dslr's? Unless they start leaking mercury, I don't see any danger

Nothing really, other than it not always being the optimal solution. I never implied a DSLR would be bad, just that they are often in the way of picking something that would be better.

But, that is better according to you. I just happen to be suspicious of those who know more than the actual individual who is making the decision.

People would not be asking me for advice if they didn't think I had more knowledge than them on the subject. I don't understand your concerns here.

 

[ZX11]

I disagree. As people "in the know" it is our duty to our friends to help them make a good buying decision. Unless you don't care about your friends, in that case this post makes no sense at all. If I was a complete Noob to a field with complex buying decisions I would hope if I had a friend who was well informed in this field that I could count on good advice. Even if they told me that my ideas about that field were way off target.

Cameras are a funny thing. Many people think they are in the know, but are really unprepared to confront the wide range of options available. So they just "punt" when faced with complex decisions and default back to what they know - big DSLRs. And really, it isn't a terrible decision. But when a person really needs a more portable system (if that is the case) and we care about that person, we should feel free to inform them that there are good options to the big DSLRs.

Nothing wrong with giving them advice should they be receptive and then stepping back. The trick is in knowing when enough is enough.

Well, that is more of a social problem than a camera related problem. But since you mentioned it, yes I agree - being too pushy is also a problem.

One thing about DSLR's is you don't have to pick the perfect camera. It can be converted through lens changes and the tons and tons of accessories to meet future needs or interests. That takes the pressure off and makes it an easy choice. Yes, the T5i has tons of options that can overwhelm me. But, it runs in auto as well as any other camera (for a noob).

The only thing a high end compact does better (at any price point) is be light weight and small. You buy a $800 compact (RX100) and you are stuck with its abilities and limitations. Stuck until you can save up for a new entire kit. Light weight is a great feature for some. However, it is hard for a noob to know if they will value that feature in the future. Especially when they have an extremely small and light weight camera built into their phone. And, most likely, a few P&S's laying around.

--
"Very funny, Scotty! Now beam me down my clothes."

 

[Brev00]

Plus, what is so wrong with dslr's? Unless they start leaking mercury, I don't see any danger

Nothing really, other than it not always being the optimal solution. I never implied a DSLR would be bad, just that they are often in the way of picking something that would be better.

But, that is better according to you. I just happen to be suspicious of those who know more than the actual individual who is making the decision.

People would not be asking me for advice if they didn't think I had more knowledge than them on the subject. I don't understand your concerns here.

There was no mention of your friends asking you for advice in your op, only your statement that they think they would be happy with a dslr and your belief that they are mistaken in that belief, somehow conned by recent history. Now, if they asked you for your opinion and did the opposite, that can be frustrating. My issue is that you seem to be devaluing their agency, making them seem like puppets, while you remain above it all. That is how your op struck me. I also disagree with you that a compact is better than an entry level dslr in general. As I said earlier, I think they are well suited to those who want a small backup for their large cameras and maybe not so well suited to rank beginners.
--

brev99

Explore brev99’s 6,815 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[007peter]

Right now on Amazon, using the same brand for comparison:

Canon SL1 DSLR: $599.00

Canon T5i DSLR: $749.00

Canon PowerShot G1X Mark II compact: $799.

Yes, paying more for a compact camera than a DSLR is a tough sell.

This is the SAME REASON why Mirrorless has sold poorly.

• Most mirrorless have a retail price between $1100 ~ $600
• Most entry level DSLR are price between $800 ~ $500

Then there is the mass retail competition between (Walmart, Costco, Best Buy, and every camera shop) on every Canon Nikon DSLR, driving their "Street Price" ever cheaper.

I'm looking to replaced my slow focusing Canon EOS-M. I love mirrorless, and I hate Big Camera.

But once I factor in the cost and performance, DSLR still offer much better value/ performance.

Amazon price today:

• $599.99 Canon SL1 with 18-55mm STM lens

• $798.00 Sony A6000 with 16-50 lens

Portrait Prime

• $110 Canon 50mm f/1.8 II

• $298 Sony 50mm f/1.8 oss

Super Wide

• $299 Canon 10-18mm

• $748 Sony 10-18mm...."wow, seriously nearly $800 for an artsy lens"

I wish more mirrorless makers wakeup and smell the coffee. Stop pricing mirrorless camera as a "premium" gear. Nikon V4 for $1200 is a perfect example of ridiculous pricing that is driving average consumer (like me) toward yet another DSLR.

 

[Mahmoud Mousef]

But once I factor in the cost and performance, DSLR still offer much better value/ performance.

Amazon price today:

• $599.99 Canon SL1 with 18-55mm STM lens

• $798.00 Sony A6000 with 16-50 lens

These cameras were released almost a year apart and I'd argue that makes the most difference to their respective gap in pricing (SL1 was more expensive last year). You can get some cheaper mirrorless cameras, but very few with viewfinder like a DSLR. Otherwise I agree with some mirrorless deals being outgunned by (mostly) Canon good pricing on its lenses. Telephoto deals in mirrorless are pretty decent.

I think many retail sales will be made with smaller camera sizes appealing to people and 100% live view (which I think is badly underrated and almost never discussed), but I guess that's another discussion. The more I use mirrorless the more the DSLR looks far too fat too (even though I love using them too, for what they are good at). I can imagine how it looks to a new camera buyer in the camera store...

Bascially it comes down to the manufacturers charging what they feel they can get away with (the majority of the market doesn't know the finer points).

 

[Sunny Caribe]

Occasionally someone will ask me what camera I recommend for an enthusiastic new photographer. They invariably have DSLRs on the brain. Rather than trying to talk them out of a DSLR to start with, I recommend a compact manual camera with which they can learn the exposure triangle and manual controls without the heft, bulk, and extraneous features that will only appeal to a more advanced photographer.

Smaller manual-capable cameras have the distinct advantage that they are likely to see a lot more use by the novice than a larger rig which among novices tends to sit at home once the credit card bill is paid.

People (especially here on DPR--no surprise) seem to think that somehow the gear is the arbiter of photographic merit, when in fact talent comes from practice, experience, confidence, and the quickest and surest way to gain those qualities is through practice, not purchase. Good on anyone who can make that argument persuasively. Besides, a good compact camera bought on sale will return much of its value on eBay should the competent and experienced photographer decide to move up a level in equipment.

Just a note on recommendations in general: I find that the most useful and persuasive advice is in saying things like, "When I was getting started, I did [xxx] and I'm really glad I did. Here's why..." or just as often, "When I was in your shoes I thought [suchandsuch] and I decided to do [yyy] and I regretted it. Here's why..." .

 

[ultimitsu]

I have a couple of friends looking for higher end cameras. They think they want a DSLR, because that is what they associate with a high end camera after 30 years of seeing that form factor. I really think they'd be happier with cameras like the Canon G1X mk2, Panasonic FZ-1000, Sony RX100/10, etc. Those won't make them mess with expensive lenses (they will probably never buy) and have great image quality in a smaller size body. But when they see these cameras, they are turned off on first sight. The fact that these are smaller and have a fixed lens, means those who don't know better associate them with $200-400 smaller sensor cameras they've seen for the past decade. I can't get my friends to look at them seriously because they want a "real" camera.

I think, even though no one admits to it, camera is a toy.

As a toy, it means we dont just use it for taking picutres, we also like to play with it, try to do different things with it.

The beauty of DSLR is that it leaves that door open. You CAN try different things, though you dont have to.

Want macro? hire or borrow a 60/2.8

Want sports? hire or borrow a 70-200

Got thin DOF fever? buy a 85/1.8

Want try UWA landscape? borrow a 10-22

And there are a lot of other accessories available.

The possibility is endless.

I know, I know. Many people dont actually get to do them, but that isnt the issue, DSLR sell you a dream, that is what people are buying.

 

[brownie314]

I disagree. As people "in the know" it is our duty to our friends to help them make a good buying decision. Unless you don't care about your friends, in that case this post makes no sense at all. If I was a complete Noob to a field with complex buying decisions I would hope if I had a friend who was well informed in this field that I could count on good advice. Even if they told me that my ideas about that field were way off target.

Cameras are a funny thing. Many people think they are in the know, but are really unprepared to confront the wide range of options available. So they just "punt" when faced with complex decisions and default back to what they know - big DSLRs. And really, it isn't a terrible decision. But when a person really needs a more portable system (if that is the case) and we care about that person, we should feel free to inform them that there are good options to the big DSLRs.

Nothing wrong with giving them advice should they be receptive and then stepping back. The trick is in knowing when enough is enough.

Well, that is more of a social problem than a camera related problem. But since you mentioned it, yes I agree - being too pushy is also a problem.

One thing about DSLR's is you don't have to pick the perfect camera. It can be converted through lens changes and the tons and tons of accessories to meet future needs or interests. That takes the pressure off and makes it an easy choice. Yes, the T5i has tons of options that can overwhelm me. But, it runs in auto as well as any other camera (for a noob).

The only thing a high end compact does better (at any price point) is be light weight and small. You buy a $800 compact (RX100) and you are stuck with its abilities and limitations. Stuck until you can save up for a new entire kit. Light weight is a great feature for some. However, it is hard for a noob to know if they will value that feature in the future. Especially when they have an extremely small and light weight camera built into their phone. And, most likely, a few P&S's laying around.