Thought provoking article

Neurad1

Senior Member
Messages
2,498
Solutions
1
Reaction score
529
Location
Birmingham, AL, US
There seem to be a lot of doom and gloom articles around about M43 at the moment.

From a purely personal perspective I still find that M43 is pretty much the perfect trade off between sensor size and lens weight. I have felt that for a long while but the larger sensor mirrorless cameras have had plenty of time to 'catch up' or 'prove me wrong' and they havent.

For instance, Nex have waited a long time for a quality standard fast zoom and when it arrives it is F4. No-one has come close to the 35-100 2.8 - even the relatively slow 55-200 from Fuji is 580g compared to 360g from Panny.

Personally I feel it is prices rather than the format that is holding M43 back. We currently seem to pay a minutarisation tax on the product which is preventing the format from going more mainstream.
 
I am not a professional photographer, only a hobbyist, but I don't really understand why people need to continuously post articles on the demise of this or that format. Why does it have to be dSLR vs m4/3? I have both a Nikon D7000 and an Olympus OMD-E M5. I don't see it as one camera being better than the other. Rather they complement each other. Each has it's strong points and disadvantages. In some situation, I'll use the Nikon, in others the OMD. With the two camera systems, I believe I have the best of both worlds. What is the downside to that? I don't really care that one format will replace the other, or that one will disappear. I would think you would buy a camera system to fill a specific need. It's beyond me why people are spending so much time and energy trying to predict which will survive. It seems totally irrelevant to the decision process of buying a camera. Go with what works for you, DSLR or M4/3, and quit worrying about who will "win".
 
Last edited:
IMO micro four-thirds is all about "good enough" image quality combined with a smaller and lighter overall system. It's not a matter of mirrorless for mirrorless' sake. Nor is it a matter of full-frame being too expensive. Anyone who bought a micro four-thirds camera because they couldn't afford a "full frame" camera please raise your hands. Yeah, I thought so.
 
larsbc wrote:

IMO micro four-thirds is all about "good enough" image quality combined with a smaller and lighter overall system. It's not a matter of mirrorless for mirrorless' sake. Nor is it a matter of full-frame being too expensive. Anyone who bought a micro four-thirds camera because they couldn't afford a "full frame" camera please raise your hands. Yeah, I thought so.
I think he was banned a few weeks ago.

The internet encourages anyone to think they can be a pundit. That's my pundification for the day, anyway. [shrug]
 
That article is wrong on so many levels, and in ways that I really despise.

For example: condescending arrogance -
"On the one hand you have prominent photographers like Trey Ratcliffe who are opening shelving their full frame Nikon systems and switching to more portable Sony NEX systems. The claim is that the image quality is good enough for his purposes and that the freedom afforded by the weight and bulk savings makes photography life so much simpler as to negate the downsides of a small sensor. In Trey's case, a man who spends more than half of his life traveling and who's main outlet for images is web, I don't doubt for a minute that it's a good choice for him. For now."
Trey is an extremely popular photographer who knows how to promote himself and his vision, clearly loves what he is doing, and he uses whatever gear he needs to to get the job done. He's used DSLRs in the past and has used various mirrorless cameras as well.

To condescendingly suggest that mirrorless is good enough for him now, because as he grows as a photographer he'll see the error of his ways and move to a larger format is just incredibly arrogant.

Then we have:
My main problem with all of this is that I am a lens man. I put my money in lenses first and cameras second. Good lenses have the potential to last a whole career and some of the best hold their value incredibly well. When I buy into a system I want to invest in a set of top quality lenses that are going to last me a very long time. Right now I simply can't justify doing that with any confidence. Zeiss have a pair of lovely Touit lenses for Fuji and Sony systems but if Sony go full frame in September that would be money well wasted on those Zeiss lenses because you can guarantee Zeiss will make FF versions and then the value in the originals is all but gone.
For me, photography is about getting the tools to do the job, not about investment as such. This kind of thinking is an anachronism in a era when lenses are so complicated and require hardware and software compatibility that they will have a very short lifespan compared to lenses in the past.

He's correct about the Canon system being weak, but neglects to point out that this is probably intentional (classic Innovator's Dilemma) and he may have a good point about the Nikon approach to marketing.

He makes it clear that he has no plans to invest in m4/3 so little first hand experience. He's a creative professional who likes his FF cameras and seems to have a hangup about justifying that; but m4/3 may well suit others who have different requirements.

No need to slag it off just because it doesn't meet his requirements.
 
Last edited:
Neurad1 wrote:

My cousin who is also a photography hobbyist sent me this link just to irritate me. What do you all think?

http://prophotocoalition.com/dcarr/story/micro-four-thirds-mirrorless-here-to-stay-or-gone-tomorrow--

http://www.flickr.com/photos/joelcure/
http://500px.com/joelcure
Can't say that the article provoked me, although I was impressed with the author's brilliant comments about the Nikon 1. :)

Ironically many people criticized Nikon when their 1-System was launched with such a small sensor (smaller even than M4/3) but what they have done is position those cameras in peoples eyes as "better than a point and shoot" instead of "worse than a DSLR". The tactic has been a winner for them and that system has some of the best sales figures out there.
 
larsbc wrote:

IMO micro four-thirds is all about "good enough" image quality combined with a smaller and lighter overall system.
His basic premise: ”The whole reason that we have crop frame sensors in the first place is simply due to the manufacturing cost of the sensor itself”

...so with price barriers eliminated ("at some point in time, sensor production cost will have gotten to a point where full frame is viable in any SLR") why stop at 135 format? If the size of the system can be flexed to the RX1 degree he implies "You CAN fit full frame sensors into a small portable body and this flies directly against the main selling point of M4/3 systems which is size and portability" isn't the real holy grail 6x7? 4x5? 8x10?

If Sony manages a FF NEX with lenses and bodies as small as m43 with (at least as good or) better IQ... and matching the price... m43 will have a problem. I'm not holding my breath ;-)
 
larsbc wrote:

IMO micro four-thirds is all about "good enough" image quality combined with a smaller and lighter overall system.It's not a matter of mirrorless for mirrorless' sake. Nor is it a matter of full-frame being too expensive. Anyone who bought a micro four-thirds camera because they couldn't afford a "full frame" camera please raise your hands. Yeah, I thought so.
MFT world and MFT sales would be fine. Trouble is, it is only a few experts who don't miss the point. Most people just know of 2 categories of cameras: P&S, which are being replaced by phones, and DSLR.

Whenever someone asks a question about my camera, it is. "Is this a DSLR". When I start explaining, that this camera doesn't have a mirror which makes it smaller and allows smaller lenses , too, people are confused.

What would be needed is a better marketing concept and more presence in shops. And "good enough" is not exactly a description that will make people spend as much money on mirrorless as they would spend on a DSLR.

I found this article something to think about:


The thoughts of Marc Sallee can easily applied to Panasonic as well.

Peter.
 
Neurad1 wrote:

My cousin who is also a photography hobbyist sent me this link just to irritate me. What do you all think?

http://prophotocoalition.com/dcarr/story/micro-four-thirds-mirrorless-here-to-stay-or-gone-tomorrow--

http://www.flickr.com/photos/joelcure/
http://500px.com/joelcure
If you think about it, the mirrorless sales figures being so "bad" can be more or less attributed to the bargain bucket retailing of the Nikon 1 and other mirrorless systems (Pentax anyone) working its way out of the figures ("we've sold all our V1s, but no one wants to buy a V2").

I don't think M43s has anything to move from a "shift" to FF sensors... I'm not even sure if there is any sort of market for the FF NEX.
 
After reading this bit I can disregard the rest....

"Public perception of these smaller systems is that they are inferior to DSLRs so many don't even consider them, even if they only plan to get a DSLR and leave it in P mode with a kit lens for its entire life. Ironically many people criticized Nikon when their 1-System was launched with such a small sensor (smaller even than M4/3) but what they have done is position those cameras in peoples eyes as "better than a point and shoot" instead of "worse than a DSLR". The tactic has been a winner for them and that system has some of the best sales figures out there."

I don't think that is the public perception at all, and as for Nikon 1 sales figures they are dropping like a stone.
 
sgoldswo wrote:

I'm not even sure if there is any sort of market for the FF NEX.
If Sony can manage rangefinder sized optics with typical RF/SLR speeds (24/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 85/1.8, 100/2 ect) then yes, but AFAIK the current rumors speculate f2.8 prime lenses for the FF NEX (and going by their APS-C NEX track record, that is generous). $3000 body plus $1000 per lens... for f2.8 on FF? If greater DOF control isn't in the cards, what exactly is the market?
 
Chez Wimpy wrote:
sgoldswo wrote:

I'm not even sure if there is any sort of market for the FF NEX.
If Sony can manage rangefinder sized optics with typical RF/SLR speeds (24/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 85/1.8, 100/2 ect) then yes, but AFAIK the current rumors speculate f2.8 prime lenses for the FF NEX (and going by their APS-C NEX track record, that is generous). $3000 body plus $1000 per lens... for f2.8 on FF? If greater DOF control isn't in the cards, what exactly is the market?
 
We sometimes see TV ads for a Canon dslr. We often see TV ads for a Nikon dslr, the Nikon 1 system or Nikon compacts. We rarely see somethng for Sony. The total number of TV ads I have see for any Olympus or Panasonic camera is 0.

There is very little marketing here for m43. Sales often reflect marketing. In tourist locations in Europe I have seen lots of entry-level or more expensive dslrs from Canon and Nikon (more than Sony), I've seen quite a few Nikon 1 cameras, some Sony Nex, very few m43. People are influenced by advertising. They may check reviews triggered by seeing an advertisement but why would they start digging for other cameras that may exist and are not advertised?
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top