WTF - Nokia put 41 Mpx on their Phone

[DVT80111]

Do they think the people need that many pixels in a phone camera? Do they think the people will print a poster out of their random snapshot images?

"Nokia may launch the new Lumia 1020 smartphone in New York, US, in July 2013. The product has a 41-megapixel camera."

 

[furjaw]

See the white paper below:

http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/849564/data/2/-/Download1.pdf

 

[mojo34]

The whole 41 MPx thing is brilliant. I have the 808 and it does the job. Sure, I take full resolution pictures sometimes, but when you "Pureview it down" to 8 MP, the cleaning and dirty pixel binning technique is effective. I have some amazingly sharp 8 MP photos, and they make great prints.

Nokia is going to have some educating to do, but when people catch on that this is not about taking 41 MP pictures (which at 7152 * 5368, for example, would be a 24 * 18 inch/ 60 * 45 cm sized photo @ 300 DPI), but about using 41 MP from a large sensor to create excellent lower MP photos. The 8 MP photos are very reasonable in size, 2 - 3 MB usually.

Here's a shot a posted early in my 808 experience. The original is just soo sharp (zoom it and you'll see)... And 8 MP still gives you tons of room for cropping in most cases.


An 8 MP Pureview 808 shot. Out of the camera.

If the rest of the phone "works" right, then the Windows Phone Pureview 41 MP has a brilliant and probably very popular future.

Enjoy.

 

[Antioch]

mojo34 wrote:

The whole 41 MPx thing is brilliant. I have the 808 and it does the job. Sure, I take full resolution pictures sometimes, but when you "Pureview it down" to 8 MP, the cleaning and dirty pixel binning technique is effective. I have some amazingly sharp 8 MP photos, and they make great prints.

Nokia is going to have some educating to do, but when people catch on that this is not about taking 41 MP pictures (which at 7152 * 5368, for example, would be a 24 * 18 inch/ 60 * 45 cm sized photo @ 300 DPI), but about using 41 MP from a large sensor to create excellent lower MP photos. The 8 MP photos are very reasonable in size, 2 - 3 MB usually.

Here's a shot a posted early in my 808 experience. The original is just soo sharp (zoom it and you'll see)... And 8 MP still gives you tons of room for cropping in most cases.


An 8 MP Pureview 808 shot. Out of the camera.

If the rest of the phone "works" right, then the Windows Phone Pureview 41 MP has a brilliant and probably very popular future.

Enjoy.

Wow. That is indeed sharp. Thanks for posting.

 

[Alupang]

That's because the ignorant and less educated mass market consumer can only grasp basic integers (like 41)--not sensor sizes measured in fractions. Hence,your subject line should be "WTF - Nokia put 1/1.2" Sensor on their Phone".

You see, outdated old-school Apple i-phone and Samsung Galaxy GS4 (even the new zoom model) all use tiny 1/2.3" sensors. Here, look at this to see the difference if fractions are too complex to comprehend.




Sensor size comparison from DPReview

What is the benefit of a larger sensor? Less noise and much more detail, especially in low light. This is where the Nokia destroys every other phone on this planet.

This Nokia 808 shot was taken in very low light, handheld with no distracting flash. Apple and Samsung cameraphones cannot even begin to capture images as clean as this.






NOKIA 808 Low Light No Flash ISO400

 

[natna]

Nokia launched the 808 only a year ago and shortly after, they abandoned it marketingwise...

They literaly abandoned it! Change of plans...

Today you can't even find it in stock for purchase today

So people don't even recognize it. They don't even know it exists.

I'm using the 41 to 8mp stock camera for low light photography. For good lighting conditions I use Scamera free app (that gives 100% jpeg quality in every resolution), in 12mp mode.(10mb file)

 

[Alupang]

Marketing would not have helped all the major review sites parroted the same lies attacking Symbian while downplaying importance of a superb camera--- brainwashing the masses into thinking if a picture looks good on a tiny device, its good enough. You see the effects here in this forum all the time. Its all about maintaining apple and samsung market share.

Cool pics so you really like that cam app huh? Are you running FP2 update and the app runs bug free?

 

[natna]

Glad you liked my photos.

You're so right about the symbian crussifying parrots!

Yes fp2 fully updated is flawless for me. I only think that the email big size files update, made the phone a bit slower.

I like the nokia cam app only for low light and action photos. Especially with fast objects the only way to go is the nokia app.

(ND off, iso 100-200, -0,7 EV, hyperfocal, flash - if more speed needed)

Otherwise I shoot with 100% jpeg quality.

8mp/2mb file is a joke...

 

[Alupang]

natna wrote:

8mp/2mb file is a joke...

Ok here is my line of thought please correct where I am going wrong. So you shoot 100 percent jpg using that cam app right? Doesn't that produce a file size around 10 MB?

So I was thinking if I shoot full resolution "41 MP" mode my file size is about 10 MB also. So what advantage is there using the 100 percent jpg mode with that cam app over 41 MP full resolution?

I did a test comparing 2 shots. One shot full resolution mode then resizing down (with my computer) to 1900X (a size I like to view as a final product) VS 8 MP mode followed by same resize. Conclusion? I see very little difference.

So I usually shoot 8MP mode but do use full resolution for special more serious stuff.Convince me of the advantages of that cam app and 100 percent jpg. Thanks in advance.

 

[mojo34]

While you're at it, could you please tell us what Scamera is ?

Thanks.

M

 

[wklee]

Maybe he meant this Symbian app with a very unfortunate name: SCam app for Symbian which comes in both free and paid versions.

mojo34 wrote:

While you're at it, could you please tell us what Scamera is ?

Thanks.

M

 

[Zlik]

DVT80111 wrote:

Do they think the people need that many pixels in a phone camera? Do they think the people will print a poster out of their random snapshot images?

"Nokia may launch the new Lumia 1020 smartphone in New York, US, in July 2013. The product has a 41-megapixel camera."

As others have pointed out, the 808 Pureview already has a 41 MP sensor, which outputs an extremely sharp and low noise 5 MP photo by default (those 5 MP photos out-resolve mobile phones that have 12 MP). Power users have the option to change the settings and chose between 3, 5, 8 or full resolution (between 34 and 38 MP depending on aspect ratio).

Downsizing from 41 to 5 (or 8) MP allows for better pixel sharpness (bayer sensors are not perfect at 100%, there is a lot of interpolation going on, and the low pass filter takes away some sharpness as well) and lower noise levels (by averaging/down-sampling).

The second advantage, and the main reason why nokia decided to put a high resolution sensor in a cameraphone, is to give the possibility for real digital zoom (no interpolation) in good light. See this graph:

This, of course, is possible because the sensor size is huge compared to what you find in every other smartphone. Sensor size is the most important aspect of image quality.

Here are some photos I took with the 41MP Nokia 808 Pureview:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adriangramunt/sets/72157634521190996/with/9224358113/

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[natna]

wklee wrote:

Maybe he meant this Symbian app with a very unfortunate name: SCam app for Symbian which comes in both free and paid versions.

mojo34 wrote:

While you're at it, could you please tell us what Scamera is ?

Thanks.

M

--

Exactly! Unfortunate name indeed...

If you are a serious pixel peeper 100% jpeg quality is the way to go.

It's the poor man's RAW shooting... I take the most that I can get, in order to have the best quality starting stuff for post processing.

Camera pro symbian app is way better but not free.

Alupang wrote:

natna wrote:

8mp/2mb file is a joke...

Ok here is my line of thought please correct where I am going wrong. So you shoot 100 percent jpg using that cam app right? Doesn't that produce a file size around 10 MB?

So I was thinking if I shoot full resolution "41 MP" mode my file size is about 10 MB also. So what advantage is there using the 100 percent jpg mode with that cam app over 41 MP full resolution?

I did a test comparing 2 shots. One shot full resolution mode then resizing down (with my computer) to 1900X (a size I like to view as a final product) VS 8 MP mode followed by same resize. Conclusion? I see very little difference.

So I usually shoot 8MP mode but do use full resolution for special more serious stuff.Convince me of the advantages of that cam app and 100 percent jpg. Thanks in advance.

38mp full res in nokia camera app (not 41mp) / 10mb is way over-compressed. You lose quality at the time of click... Jpeg is a lossless algorithm.

The super fine compression setting is not so fine...

I shoot with nokia cam app in the following situations:

*low light/night (pixel binning is super low noise)

*action photography or fast moving objects (I can fool the camera app to boost shutter speed to 1/666s or more with flash in good light). I've posted how in another forum with pics.

*macro weird focusing / playing with bokeh (touch to focus is super easy and doesn't work well is other camera apps)

I am proud for my 808!

 

[dpfan32]

Good morning The 808 PureView hab been available for a year now and I own it for almost a year now

Yes you need the 41 Megapixel sometimes

I'm using the stock cam but for sharper results the Camera Pro is often better and you can set for example 12MP or 9MP too.

Stunning device but for more than photos the 808 is not very usable with the slow Symbian compared to other platform I'm using :-/

So having a PureView module on a faster OS platform is great! Can't wait for the 1020!

 

[Alupang]

Strange and cumbersome UI. When I switch from Auto to Macro for example, all my settings are lost when I return to Auto (like flash off,sharpness, etc.)! Is there any way to fix this? I think I tried every combination of save settings with no luck. What mode do you shoot??

Also I cannot find infinity and hyperfocal manual focus presets. Impossible with this app?

I have not had time to do tests but you really think the Scam 4000X3000, 100 percent jpeg file is better than 38 MP with the original camera app?

I really like the level indicator! Nice and fast little app so I'll use it for one mode of shooting unless I can figure out how not to lose settings when switching modes. Thankfully the app saves settings if you don't switch modes!

 

[bigley Ling]

Alupang wrote:

Strange and cumbersome UI. When I switch from Auto to Macro for example, all my settings are lost when I return to Auto (like flash off,sharpness, etc.)! Is there any way to fix this? I think I tried every combination of save settings with no luck. What mode do you shoot??

Also I cannot find infinity and hyperfocal manual focus presets. Impossible with this app?

I have not had time to do tests but you really think the Scam 4000X3000, 100 percent jpeg file is better than 38 MP with the original camera app?

I really like the level indicator! Nice and fast little app so I'll use it for one mode of shooting unless I can figure out how not to lose settings when switching modes. Thankfully the app saves settings if you don't switch modes!

Are you talking about Camera Pro UI or Scam UI? I never used SCAM, but Camera Pro UI is very good, and it is very easy to select between hyperfocal, infinite, autofocus, and macro.

Camera Pro does have level indicator too.

I have just done comparisons between the camera pro app set to 8mp and 100% JPG and the built in app set to 8mp. Images are pretty similar, with the camera pro image having a very very slight edge having very low compression but this undoubtedly results in an image that is 3x larger!!

 

[Alupang]

bigley Ling wrote:

Alupang wrote:

Strange and cumbersome UI. When I switch from Auto to Macro for example, all my settings are lost when I return to Auto (like flash off,sharpness, etc.)! Is there any way to fix this? I think I tried every combination of save settings with no luck. What mode do you shoot??

Also I cannot find infinity and hyperfocal manual focus presets. Impossible with this app?

I have not had time to do tests but you really think the Scam 4000X3000, 100 percent jpeg file is better than 38 MP with the original camera app?

I really like the level indicator! Nice and fast little app so I'll use it for one mode of shooting unless I can figure out how not to lose settings when switching modes. Thankfully the app saves settings if you don't switch modes!

Are you talking about Camera Pro UI or Scam UI? I never used SCAM, but Camera Pro UI is very good, and it is very easy to select between hyperfocal, infinite, autofocus, and macro.

Camera Pro does have level indicator too.

I have just done comparisons between the camera pro app set to 8mp and 100% JPG and the built in app set to 8mp. Images are pretty similar, with the camera pro image having a very very slight edge having very low compression but this undoubtedly results in an image that is 3x larger!!

I'm talking about Scam UI...it's pretty horrible BUT if you stick to one mode of shooting, this app has some nice features. That level indicator is so great as I mentioned before.

So you see a "very very slight" advantage in the 3X times larger file huh? Good to know but I'm not that much of a peeper.

That said, I'll keep scam setup for one type of shoot mode, and still use original cam for other modes. It's like having two distinct camera setups ready to use instantly at the touch of an icon. I never considered how handy that could be!

 

[Karl Dunkerley]

Hi, Sorry to jump into this conversation late but I'm looking for a camera that would effectively act as a hi-res scanner for for A2 sized sheets with handwriting which can then be OCR'd.

I was wondering if the 1020 could output raw image files using the full sensor and, if so, what size they would be.

I try to avoid jpeg etc as in my video days anything over 2:1 compression was lossy. Not sure if that applies here though as I am well out of touch with the photography market.

Can anyone help me with my quest?

Cheers,

Karl

 

[bigley Ling]

no prob, guess the conversation is sort of stagnant as such.

Most modern phones like the iPhone 5s, Samsung S4, LG G2, should be able to scan in A2 sized drawings with ease. Just ensure the device has around 8MP and has available scanning software. On the iPhone a popular one is called "Doc Scanner" not only will it scan, but it can also be set to black and white for plans, and also has auto keystoning which can re straighten out plane capture of plans.

The Lumia 1020 has a relatively large sensor, so the depth of field is narrow. This is ideal for artistic shots where you may require nice defocusing backgrounds, but for A2 sized plan scanning, if the camera cannot be exactly centered in the middle of the plan, there is a likely chance part of the scan will be out of focus. In this case a smaller sensor phone camera with a smaller aperture would be a better candidate for scanning.

The lumia 1020 will be updated to allow for RAW image files, but that again is more suited for high end photography rather than scanning. If you want to use the entire sensor, there is a software called "Camera Pro" for both 808 and 1020. The 808 allows you to use the entire 41MP sensor, with no letterboxing, but the side effect, is there is a slight vignetting on the edges. Also it is not recommended you use the entire frame if using the 1020, as the edge clarity is far from perfect. Infact it suffers more from CA, and softening than any other smartphone in the current market. The 808, appart from the vignetting, does not suffer from edge softness, which is a bonus.

I think based on your ideal requirements, the 1020 may not be for you, since the clarity on the edges is sub par, with occasional side softness as well if the subject is landscape. Although it will be supporting RAW image output after the latest firmware update, the lens quality will still be sub par. The 808 would be closer to what you want as it has a high resolution sensor, a lens that can resolve this resolution across the frame but it does not have RAW support plus the OS is considered obsolete and dead. The 808 however does have good scanning software which will happily scan A2 sheets and combine them into one PDF if required for emailing. Also using Camera pro it needed, will support 100% JPG compression quality.

 

[furjaw]

I just took a photo of a friend in a small boat with my Nokia 1020.
He was rather far away, so I had to crop severely, but I still got a nice sharp print.
No other camera could have done it.