Wides and Normals: amaziing resolution findings at Lens Rentals...

…won’t let facts get in the way!

LOL.

By the way - one of the major things that drove big apertures for lenses back in the good old film SLR days (I'm talking 60s, 70s and 80s here) was the manual focusing. You wanted to focus in any light, bright or dull, you got the fastest lens you could afford.

You nearly always stopped down for taking the picture. Open aperture resolution wasn't that great -- you just needed light on the ground glass focusing screen.

Cheers, geoff
 
Well resolution is just one measurement of a lens and probably the easiest one to measure. If that's all you care about, fine however if you want/need a faster lens then the PL25 fits the bill quite nicely.

I've seen this same old argument in everything; autos, audio, photography, video, etc. and it's always the same old thing. Just because one person doesn't own, can't afford, can't see a difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You should just be thankful that some people do find these things important because the higher end always trickles down to the more "affordable" product.
 
String wrote:

I've seen this same old argument in everything; autos, audio, photography, video, etc. and it's always the same old thing. Just because one person doesn't own, can't afford, can't see a difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
And it's the same old arguments that keep the myths going in autos, audio, photography, video, etc. If the difference exists, then find a way to identify it, explain and/or measure it. Don't ask people to simply accept arguments based on another person's superior perception or tastes.
You should just be thankful that some people do find these things important because the higher end always trickles down to the more "affordable" product.
Thanks, I think!
 
String wrote:

And a Prius must be the same as a 911 because they both get to the grocery store right? No doubt that Consumer Reports says the Prius is far better due to its superior gas mileage and lower cost. All those car snobs whobought a 911 are fools!
Have you read Consumer Reports or are you just making this up?
 
olliess wrote:
String wrote:

I've seen this same old argument in everything; autos, audio, photography, video, etc. and it's always the same old thing. Just because one person doesn't own, can't afford, can't see a difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
And it's the same old arguments that keep the myths going in autos, audio, photography, video, etc. If the difference exists, then find a way to identify it, explain and/or measure it. Don't ask people to simply accept arguments based on another person's superior perception or tastes.
You should just be thankful that some people do find these things important because the higher end always trickles down to the more "affordable" product.
Thanks, I think!
One of the points some people who purchased the higher items(me included for PL25) are trying to point out is we didn't buy it and/or keep it after buying it because we expected higher resolution. Before I purchased the 25mm, I had the 20mm, and was very impressed with it. I saw some pictures and comparisons between the two, along with testimony, that convinced me I wanted to try it out. Justifying it over the 20mm was hard, until I had a productive place to put the 20mm.

When I got the 25mm, I still had my 20mm. I tested them under my own limited test under same conditions, and I saw things I liked better in the 25mm. Sharpness wasn't one of them, as the 20mm visibly outresolved it up to 2.8. According to the tests, it still does after that. I couldn't see the difference personally, but I believe the tests. Of course, not being able to see the difference means it isn't important to me. What I liked better from my tests was the contrast, and I think the color. CA was different on the two also, which depended on fstop which I preferred. Anyway, the choice was really between my brother getting a 19 or me getting a 25 and him getting the 20mm. I figured we could both get excellent fast lenses this way.

Is the 25mm superior to the 20mm, all things considered? I don't think so. Each have pluses. Better bokeh on 25, what seemed like better contrast(was probably just a difference in lens hood vs no hood). FL is a wash, based on opinion. Colors, not sure. Focus speed: 25. Sharpness: 20. The rest comes down to opinion. Do you prefer a pancake? Wider angle? Normal angle? Cheaper price? Brighter lens?
 
olliess wrote:
String wrote:

I've seen this same old argument in everything; autos, audio, photography, video, etc. and it's always the same old thing. Just because one person doesn't own, can't afford, can't see a difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
And it's the same old arguments that keep the myths going in autos, audio, photography, video, etc. If the difference exists, then find a way to identify it, explain and/or measure it. Don't ask people to simply accept arguments based on another person's superior perception or tastes.
But isn't that what we have here? We have an objective measure showing the Leica and Voightlander 25mm lenses are at 960 and 995 lp/ph at f/2.8, while the Sigma 30mm and 19mm are at 825 and 850 lp/ph. That's a difference of 16-17%.

So there's no denying which one is better. Whether it's by enough to matter is debatable, and may come down to personal preference. It's sort of like arguing whether the 240 HP BMW 328 is really worth it when you can get a 200 HP Nisan Sentra SER for a lot less, and besides, the speed limit is never more than 70 mph anyway.
 
KenBalbari wrote:
olliess wrote:
String wrote:

I've seen this same old argument in everything; autos, audio, photography, video, etc. and it's always the same old thing. Just because one person doesn't own, can't afford, can't see a difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
And it's the same old arguments that keep the myths going in autos, audio, photography, video, etc. If the difference exists, then find a way to identify it, explain and/or measure it. Don't ask people to simply accept arguments based on another person's superior perception or tastes.
But isn't that what we have here? We have an objective measure showing the Leica and Voightlander 25mm lenses are at 960 and 995 lp/ph at f/2.8, while the Sigma 30mm and 19mm are at 825 and 850 lp/ph. That's a difference of 16-17%.
You right, I see now that the Sigma was tested in the Normal lens group and came out significantly worse than the PanaLeica. It's the Pure Panasonic (20/1.7) that has the superior resolution for the lesser price. I got confused between them with all the talk of the Sigma being "as good" or not for f/2.8 or below. My bad!
So there's no denying which one is better. Whether it's by enough to matter is debatable, and may come down to personal preference. It's sort of like arguing whether the 240 HP BMW 328 is really worth it when you can get a 200 HP Nisan Sentra SER for a lot less, and besides, the speed limit is never more than 70 mph anyway.
Well the price diff between the PanaLeica and the Pure Panasonic actually seems quite reasonable for a f/1.4 vs f/1.7 lens. Makes it more like the difference between a 328 and a 335, although I'm not sure anymore which lens should correspond to which car. ;)
 
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Chatokun wrote:

When I got the 25mm, I still had my 20mm. I tested them under my own limited test under same conditions, and I saw things I liked better in the 25mm. Sharpness wasn't one of them, as the 20mm visibly outresolved it up to 2.8. According to the tests, it still does after that. I couldn't see the difference personally, but I believe the tests. Of course, not being able to see the difference means it isn't important to me. What I liked better from my tests was the contrast, and I think the color. CA was different on the two also, which depended on fstop which I preferred.
And these are differences that can be identified, described and even measured. I agree that these are also useful things to know, alongside the resolution measurements, when choosing a lens.
Better bokeh on 25, what seemed like better contrast(was probably just a difference in lens hood vs no hood).
That's not such a good testing procedure, though. :P
 
olliess wrote:
Chatokun wrote:

When I got the 25mm, I still had my 20mm. I tested them under my own limited test under same conditions, and I saw things I liked better in the 25mm. Sharpness wasn't one of them, as the 20mm visibly outresolved it up to 2.8. According to the tests, it still does after that. I couldn't see the difference personally, but I believe the tests. Of course, not being able to see the difference means it isn't important to me. What I liked better from my tests was the contrast, and I think the color. CA was different on the two also, which depended on fstop which I preferred.
And these are differences that can be identified, described and even measured. I agree that these are also useful things to know, alongside the resolution measurements, when choosing a lens.
Better bokeh on 25, what seemed like better contrast(was probably just a difference in lens hood vs no hood).
That's not such a good testing procedure, though. :P
I agree. Which is why I don't really list it as what's better, though for my informal tests that stood out. Still, as I said, my main motivation was pictures I had seen comparing the same scene done with two, the difference in background blur (looks pretty nice for up close portraits, while still being wide enough to do group shots), and, chiefly, spreading some great native lens love to family.

Edit: However, a slight justification: It's how I would use the lens. The 20mm I tend to use without a hood(I don't have one, I've thought of buying one, but not being able to cap it from the hoods I've seen put me off a bit). I've seen someone use a stepdown ring, and maybe that would work... but I'd have to get a different cap again. I'd likely just not use it. With the 25mm, the hood is always on, and I've relegated my 14mm to the pancake usage without a hood status. Though, now that I have the LX7, I may not need a pocketable m43 much anymore. I'm sure I'll find a situation where I want it.
 
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Of course I'm making it up!

Its a ridiculous argument; making a blanket statement calling people who spent more than you on a lens "lens snobs and try hards" is beyond ridiculous.

Why buy an EM-5 when there are a multitude of other m43's that are cheaper?

Why go out for a steak dinner when you can eat meat at McD's?

Why buy winter tires when an all season gives you 90% of it?

Why buy your wife a diamond when a cubic zarcona looks the same?

Why buy a Tag when a Timex does the same thing?

But nope, because someone has a need/want/ability to buy/spend more than you, they must be snobs... gotta love the net!

--

 
I'm sure there is a difference between snobbery and buying expensive things for the sake of their actual merit.

In my opinion, snobbery is to buy expensive photo gear and think that, with that mere fact, you gained advantage over those who have "lesser equipment" - basically to think you will make better pictures because you have a more expensive lens or a camera. Of course a competent photographer will run circles around you, simply because he knows how to use his stuff properly. However, people who do know how to use their stuff properly often do buy very expensive pieces of kit, because they do know how to put them to good use. But then come those with more money than brains and attempt to emulate them, creating a degree of irritation to which I, myself, confess, because they are as arrogant as their photos are bad, and this combination is highly annoying.

Yes, there are those who can't afford the more expensive stuff and have to rationalize things, but in photography, the price of equipment only rarely really influences the results, and only before a very low financial threshold; one could buy a film camera and a cheap 50mm lens and perform photographic miracles, so envy due to lack of money isn't really a photography thing, it's more a social network pecking order thing.
 
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Such snobbery surely exists, and likely shows up from time to time even in this forum. But I thought the accusation was misplaced here.

The Leica lens involved here is actually quite a bargain at about $500 US. I think it might be debatable if Olympus has ever even made a Zukio branded lens that was as good a value (is the 45 f/1.8 as good?). The Olympus 50mm f2.0 macro for four-thirds was probably as good, but still only f2.0, and slow to focus, and even now after about 10 years still costs the same brand new as the Leica.

The Cosinas do have a bit more exclusive price, I suppose, but I doubt very much it's because of the name "Cosina". I don't think the brand is even that well known. But a f/0.95 prime of similar quality is going to be somewhat specialized and expensive niche item regardless of whether the name on it is Cosina, Tamron, or Sigma. The small number of people buying those lenses aren't buying them because of the brand. They are buying Cosina/Voightlnader because they are the only ones making that lens.

On balance, I think there's a nice collection of reasonably priced primes here to suit different budgets. The Sigmas may be the best bargain right now, but the Olympus, Panasonic, and Leica lenses offer a pretty affordable upgrade path from there, as well.
 
danijel973 wrote:

Yes, there are those who can't afford the more expensive stuff and have to rationalize things, but in photography, the price of equipment only rarely really influences the results, and only before a very low financial threshold; one could buy a film camera and a cheap 50mm lens and perform photographic miracles, so envy due to lack of money isn't really a photography thing, it's more a social network pecking order thing.
V. true, but the corollary is that you cannot establish ANY pecking order with the lenses you own.

Shall we state again that HCB used only one lens most of his life? Subject Isolation and sharpness were never concerns of his.

They are not in many genres: PJ, Street, Landscape - that is where maximum DOF is needed, and SKILL of course.

Suburban consumerists instead try to peddle the commonplace of Subject Isolation as if it were Salvation itself, whereas it's just an old, worn out device used by the lamest commercial photogs. No great art to isolate an eye - a piece of software can do that.

But then OC it shows that you spent thousands on a lens even if you'll use it once in a lifetime.

We all know that some improvement in gear can stimulate a languishing interest SOMETIMES.

To me ultrafast AF did but f/1.4 or 1.8 lenses never did, and LensRentals vindicates that showing that at those ranges resolution is poor, and that is almost the double at f/2.8, where much cheaper lenses perform equally well.

So a Scandal follows - LOL. Never mention to Middletown that people wasted their money, they never knew the fundamentals, perhaps they never knew what kind of system they were buying in.

Refreshingly both Cicala and Hogan draw some conclusion about the strengths of the m4/3 system that noobs would do well to meditate upon, before complaining that their pecking order has been upset.

You can have fantastic good performance with small wides like the P 14/2.5 spending v. little by now. That is one strengths of the system. On longer focals one would do well to avoid SW correction if one wants good edges. Having telecentric lenses helps. You'll probably never get great results below f/2. So why don't you throw your system to the dogs, and start again with another one? :)

Am.
 
Hen3ry wrote:

…won’t let facts get in the way!

LOL.

By the way - one of the major things that drove big apertures for lenses back in the good old film SLR days (I'm talking 60s, 70s and 80s here) was the manual focusing. You wanted to focus in any light, bright or dull, you got the fastest lens you could afford.

You nearly always stopped down for taking the picture. Open aperture resolution wasn't that great -- you just needed light on the ground glass focusing screen.
Yes, v. true. In fact you can still simulate the effect with fast legacy lenses, when you need selective focus, and watch it in an EVF in Manual.

The problem is that none of these fast old beauties perform well at max aperture, probably due to inner reflections between sensor and lenses. Or/and lack of modern coatings.

Am.
 
String wrote:

Its a ridiculous argument; making a blanket statement calling people who spent more than you on a lens "lens snobs and try hards" is beyond ridiculous.

[....]

But nope, because someone has a need/want/ability to buy/spend more than you, they must be snobs... gotta love the net!
Sure, it's ridiculous to make blanket statements like that. But it's also a terrible comeback to suggest that they're just calling you a snob because they have lesser needs/lack discernment/can't afford what you have/read Consumer Reports.

If anything, the argument comes across as kind of supporting their statement. Just sayin'. ;)
 
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