Pentax *ist D and EOS 10D -- Minolta killers?

[Petteri Sulonen]

Got your attention, no?

Seriously, I think Minolta's going to be in real trouble, unless it comes up with something (read: an affordable, high-quality D-SLR) really fast.

Minolta's been very strong in the "prosumer" segment, with the D7, D7i, and D7Hi. The D7 series has been extremely attractive to advanced amateurs who can't justify dropping $2000+ on a camera body, not including lenses, but want something that handles more or less like an SLR, but preferably smaller and lighter. I love my D7i for these reasons.

But... the clouds are gathering, and soon the storm will break. It's already pretty clear that the EOS 10D will pull the price cap of the mid-range D-SLR market down to ca $1500. The camera is so good that you have to have something really exceptional to be able to sell it for more than that price (such as a full-frame, ultra-hi-res sensor or an environmentally sealed, pro body and handling).

If Pentax intends to be anything other than an "also-ran," it'll have to price the *ist D well below that. After all, while the camera seems very good by the specs and beats the 10D in portability at least, it can't match the build quality of the 10D's all-metal body -- nor the attractiveness of Canon's superb lens collection, or even the prestige of its name. So let's say the *ist sells at $1200 or so. (This isn't even taking into account the rumors of a "Rebel-D," which would pull down prices even more.)

I paid more than that for my D7i. (I absolutely had to get one just when it was out, I know, dumb.) If a compact "real" D-SLR had been available for that price at the time, I would've gone for it, with no hesitation -- even if the D7i had been available for, say, $500. And I think I'm not that atypical of the D7 series's "core market segment".

This is extremely bad news for Minolta. A moderately priced, compact D-SLR or two could eliminate their main market at a stroke. The D7 series will be too complicated for the point-and-shooters, and too limiting for the advanced amateurs (DoF issue, speed, sensitivity). They'd be left with their subcompacts and compacts, which aren't bad cameras, but have a really hard time competing against the likes of the Digital Ixus and S50.

Where does that leave Minolta?

Where it was before: needing to deliver a high-quality, low-cost, no-frills D-SLR now . They have the know-how: the D7 series has proved that with the digital side, and their record on the analog side with the Maxxums is beyond reproach. Do they have the capital and the will? I hope so. Because six months from now may be too late.

With last week's announcements, I think that it's extremely unlikely that this time next year my digital flagship will be the D7i. It will almost certainly be a compact D-SLR: maybe the *ist D, or maybe something like it from another manufacturer.

Minolta, if you want (more of) my money, time is running out for you. Once I do make the plunge and get a D-SLR, the lens mount will have me married to a manufacturer. I'm hoping for the best.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

 

[syberascal]

Petteri,

I whole heartily appreciate and agree on your assessment. If Minolta does make a move soon, I think they will 'miss the boat' on the DSLR market!

Got your attention, no?

Seriously, I think Minolta's going to be in real trouble, unless it
comes up with something (read: an affordable, high-quality D-SLR)
really fast.

Minolta's been very strong in the "prosumer" segment, with the D7,
D7i, and D7Hi. The D7 series has been extremely attractive to
advanced amateurs who can't justify dropping $2000+ on a camera
body, not including lenses, but want something that handles more or
less like an SLR, but preferably smaller and lighter. I love my D7i
for these reasons.

But... the clouds are gathering, and soon the storm will break.
It's already pretty clear that the EOS 10D will pull the price cap
of the mid-range D-SLR market down to ca $1500. The camera is so
good that you have to have something really exceptional to be able
to sell it for more than that price (such as a full-frame,
ultra-hi-res sensor or an environmentally sealed, pro body and
handling).

If Pentax intends to be anything other than an "also-ran," it'll
have to price the *ist D well below that. After all, while the
camera seems very good by the specs and beats the 10D in
portability at least, it can't match the build quality of the 10D's
all-metal body -- nor the attractiveness of Canon's superb lens
collection, or even the prestige of its name. So let's say the *ist
sells at $1200 or so. (This isn't even taking into account the
rumors of a "Rebel-D," which would pull down prices even more.)

I paid more than that for my D7i. (I absolutely had to get one just
when it was out, I know, dumb.) If a compact "real" D-SLR had been
available for that price at the time, I would've gone for it, with
no hesitation -- even if the D7i had been available for, say, $500.
And I think I'm not that atypical of the D7 series's "core market
segment".

This is extremely bad news for Minolta. A moderately priced,
compact D-SLR or two could eliminate their main market at a stroke.
The D7 series will be too complicated for the point-and-shooters,
and too limiting for the advanced amateurs (DoF issue, speed,
sensitivity). They'd be left with their subcompacts and compacts,
which aren't bad cameras, but have a really hard time competing
against the likes of the Digital Ixus and S50.

Where does that leave Minolta?

Where it was before: needing to deliver a high-quality, low-cost,
no-frills D-SLR now . They have the know-how: the D7 series has
proved that with the digital side, and their record on the analog
side with the Maxxums is beyond reproach. Do they have the capital
and the will? I hope so. Because six months from now may be too
late.

With last week's announcements, I think that it's extremely
unlikely that this time next year my digital flagship will be the
D7i. It will almost certainly be a compact D-SLR: maybe the *ist D,
or maybe something like it from another manufacturer.

Minolta, if you want (more of) my money, time is running out for
you. Once I do make the plunge and get a D-SLR, the lens mount will
have me married to a manufacturer. I'm hoping for the best.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

 

[Dr. Don Sandell]

Petteri,

I believe your analysis is 100% on the mark. Time for Minolta to put out a new DSLR or make point and shoots only. With the new developments in the DSLR market this week the whole prosumer market will dissapear soon.

 

[Icypeak]

I agree Petteri. If no other smaller system cams are announced in the next few days at PMA, I'm going to pre-order a 10D, even though I have no Canon glass at this time. While I like the small size of the Pentax, I don't think I want to commit to their 1st generation DSLR, as there are usually some problems to be worked out. If I get the 10D, I'll hang onto my D7 for when I really need it's light weight, like climbing or skiing trips, but if I get a smaller DSLR, I'll sell it.
--
David

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/home?userid= {F351C88E-FEF7-4892-9F30-9FD2DDD1593C}&tio=0tio=0&st=he&GUID={0AB0EAE9-1AF7-41AE-966B-588570432D96}&sent=stored

 

[Petteri Sulonen]

Petteri,

I believe your analysis is 100% on the mark. Time for Minolta to
put out a new DSLR or make point and shoots only. With the new
developments in the DSLR market this week the whole prosumer market
will dissapear soon.

Another serious issue for Minolta is that their PnS's are somewhat lackluster, compared to the competition. Their image processing isn't optimized to maximize the appeal of the image out of the camera: in this realm, especially Fuji and Canon are significantly better than Minolta. Even with innovative designs like the DiMAGE Xi they're going to have a very hard time competing with the big names... more so, as the PnS market is less likely to do thorough research, and therefore more likely to be attracted by a big name. The whole future of Minolta cameras may hang in the balance.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

 

[Henry Richardson]

You're thinking process follows mine exactly. I have been a long time user of Minolta SLRs (MF and AF) and finally bought a D7i about 8 months ago as a temporary compromise. I figure within a year I will no longer see the need to compromise and will decide the price/performance of DSLRs have reached the point where I will buy one. With all my Minolta lenses I would lean toward Minolta but if they don't have one then I will bite the bullet and switch.

Henry Richardson
http://www.hrich.com
http://www.pbase.com/hrich

 

[Andrew Cruickshank]

Got your attention, no?

Seriously, I think Minolta's going to be in real trouble, unless it
comes up with something (read: an affordable, high-quality D-SLR)
really fast.

As things stand they have to be losing high end Dynax/Maxxum sales
simply because it looks increasingly stupid to invest in Minolta glass
without a DSLR option.

--
---------------
Andrew.

 

[Mike Gallagher]

I too would like to see Minolta come out with a small, lightweight D-SLR. However, I must confess, that one thing I like about prosumer Digitals, is the "Fixed" lens. I own three Konica 35mm Film Format SLR Cameras, one of which I took to Desert Storm in 90-91. I have 6 lenses for my Konicas, and took 3 of them with me. Even though I always changed the lenses inside of a plastic bag, the camera guts still became contaminated with Desert Sand, which (in Saudi and Kuwait) was like baby powder. Even though I had the camera cleaned afterward, my camera was ruined. I would imagine Digital cameras (the insides) are even more sensitive to dirt, dust and other forms of airborn debris. If Minolta does venture out and does make a D-SLR, I hope they still make a highend camera that comes with an "All-purpose" (28-200mm ?) fixed lens that is threaded to accept filters. I like the idea of not having to lug around multiple lenses. But hey, thats just me.

 

[Petteri Sulonen]

Mike Gallagher wrote:
[snip discussion about the dust issue]

There's a simple solution to that: don't change lenses. Just because you can doesn't mean you have to.

Under most circumstances, changing lenses adds a lot of flexibility and is a very useful option to have -- but in the desert, you might want to give up that flexibility simply to protect the insides of the camera from dust.

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

 

[Mike Gallagher]

There's a simple solution to that: don't change lenses. Just
because you can doesn't mean you have to.

Under most circumstances, changing lenses adds a lot of flexibility
and is a very useful option to have -- but in the desert, you might
want to give up that flexibility simply to protect the insides of
the camera from dust.

Petteri

NO KIDDING. Ha Ha Ha. Yes Petteri, it proved to be an expensive lesson. Where were you in 90-91?
I've still got two Konica's left. Want one?

I actually prefer my D7i to both of them (One totally manual, the other totally automatic with manual override).

I still think there is something to be said for having a camera with a "Fixed" lens, if it is of good quality (Zeis ?). I also think I would still be interested in another prosumer D7 series camera from Minolta, if say they improved the quality of the housing the camera is comprised of, and say they did something to improve on the handling of depth of field limitations - perhaps a larger CCD?

But I'm in total agreement this all may be mute, if Minolta doesn't step up to the plate and produce a serious D-SLR real soon in response to recent developments by other competitors.

 

[Dr. Don Sandell]

Intruging idea!

 

[Dr. Don Sandell]

Pentax *ist....replace the * with a P and that's what I'm feeling about Minolta!

 

[Petteri Sulonen]

There's a simple solution to that: don't change lenses. Just
because you can doesn't mean you have to.

Under most circumstances, changing lenses adds a lot of flexibility
and is a very useful option to have -- but in the desert, you might
want to give up that flexibility simply to protect the insides of
the camera from dust.

Petteri

NO KIDDING. Ha Ha Ha. Yes Petteri, it proved to be an expensive
lesson. Where were you in 90-91?

In the Finnish army, actually. I was freezing my butt off in a half-platoon tent during boot camp when the war started; I had little radio so I could listen to the news as they broke. -- Sorry, when re-reading my comment it comes across as smart-ass; I didn't intend it that way.

I've still got two Konica's left. Want one?

I'm tempted.

I actually prefer my D7i to both of them (One totally manual, the
other totally automatic with manual override).

I still think there is something to be said for having a camera
with a "Fixed" lens, if it is of good quality (Zeis ?). I also
think I would still be interested in another prosumer D7 series
camera from Minolta, if say they improved the quality of the
housing the camera is comprised of, and say they did something to
improve on the handling of depth of field limitations - perhaps a
larger CCD?

I agree. Unfortunately, there's no way of increasing the size of the sensor without redesigning the lens (the image circle isn't big enough). That would mean a whole new camera.

[snip total agreement]

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

 

[Mike Gallagher]

Hi Petteri,

Listen, I didn't take your response as "Smart-ass". Actually, you were "Spot-on". However, I'm not the photographer you and many other of the posters are, and consequently, I did find it necessary to change lenses (yes, even in the sand).

When I asked where you were in 90-91? I was referring to the fact your insight and observation could have saved me the loss of a camera.

You mentioned you were in the Finnish Military serving in the Cold. Personally, I'll take the desert heat over Ice and Snow any day. Don't particularly like either one though. Take care Petteri. Look forward to more of your intellectual posts (and I don't mean that sarcastically).

Best Regards.

Michael

There's a simple solution to that: don't change lenses. Just
because you can doesn't mean you have to.

Under most circumstances, changing lenses adds a lot of flexibility
and is a very useful option to have -- but in the desert, you might
want to give up that flexibility simply to protect the insides of
the camera from dust.

Petteri

NO KIDDING. Ha Ha Ha. Yes Petteri, it proved to be an expensive
lesson. Where were you in 90-91?

In the Finnish army, actually. I was freezing my butt off in a
half-platoon tent during boot camp when the war started; I had
little radio so I could listen to the news as they broke. -- Sorry,
when re-reading my comment it comes across as smart-ass; I didn't
intend it that way.

I've still got two Konica's left. Want one?

I'm tempted.

I actually prefer my D7i to both of them (One totally manual, the
other totally automatic with manual override).

I still think there is something to be said for having a camera
with a "Fixed" lens, if it is of good quality (Zeis ?). I also
think I would still be interested in another prosumer D7 series
camera from Minolta, if say they improved the quality of the
housing the camera is comprised of, and say they did something to
improve on the handling of depth of field limitations - perhaps a
larger CCD?

I agree. Unfortunately, there's no way of increasing the size of
the sensor without redesigning the lens (the image circle isn't big
enough). That would mean a whole new camera.

[snip total agreement]

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

 

[Mike Gallagher]

Dr. SANDELL,

Hilarious. You are really wired in today. Well stated. !!!

Pentax *ist....replace the * with a P and that's what I'm feeling
about Minolta!

 

[José B]

I like the Canon 10D a lot but here is my reality check.

If I'm going to trade-in my Maxxum 7 kit, here is what will likely cost me to at least match its performance:

Canon 10 D body: $ 1,500
Canon 24-85/f3.5-4.5 310
Sigma 70-200/f2.8 APO EX 700
Sigma TC 1.4x 150
Tamron 19-35 170
Canon 50/f1.8 70
Canon Flash 550EX 330
Hoya Filters:
67 mm ultra thin 35
67 cp multi-coated 75
77 uv 35
77 cp 70
52 uv 10

Total $ 3,455

No problem if we are headed back to the days of Dow 11,500 and/or Nasdaq 5000. Otherwise, I'll stand pat and wait for that Minolta DSLR. In the meantime, back to shooting with the 7Hi and Maxxum 7 + Provia 100/400 + Scan Dual III.

Happy clicking with your Minolta camera,

José

Pentax *ist....replace the * with a P and that's what I'm feeling
about Minolta!

 

[Petteri Sulonen]

Mike Gallagher wrote:
[snip]

When I asked where you were in 90-91? I was referring to the fact
your insight and observation could have saved me the loss of a
camera.

Well, in '91 I would probably have been happily changing lenses right next to you...

You mentioned you were in the Finnish Military serving in the Cold.

Yep. We have a conscript army; most Finnish men serve between six months and a year. I'm actually a reserve second lieutenant, in combat engineers.

Personally, I'll take the desert heat over Ice and Snow any day.
Don't particularly like either one though. Take care Petteri.
Look forward to more of your intellectual posts (and I don't mean
that sarcastically).

Thanks. I'll be sticking around...

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/

 

[Dr. Don Sandell]

I like the Canon 10D a lot but here is my reality check.

If I'm going to trade-in my Maxxum 7 kit, here is what will likely
cost me to at least match its performance:

Canon 10 D body: $ 1,500
Canon 24-85/f3.5-4.5 310
Sigma 70-200/f2.8 APO EX 700
Sigma TC 1.4x 150
Tamron 19-35 170
Canon 50/f1.8 70
Canon Flash 550EX 330
Hoya Filters:
67 mm ultra thin 35
67 cp multi-coated 75
77 uv 35
77 cp 70
52 uv 10

Total $ 3,455

No problem if we are headed back to the days of Dow 11,500 and/or
Nasdaq 5000. Otherwise, I'll stand pat and wait for that Minolta
DSLR. In the meantime, back to shooting with the 7Hi and Maxxum 7 +
Provia 100/400 + Scan Dual III.

Happy clicking with your Minolta camera,

José

Jose'.............I think I smell your credit card burning a hole in your wallet!

LOL.........good luck!

 

[frank bayley]

Well for me, I'm just waiting to find out how the 10D price will stand up against the 7Hi ($1,999.00CDN) at the local shop (Henry's). And then how much for a "reasonable" quality zoom to start with. If the total's within spitting distance of the 7Hi, I'll give serious consideration to switching my order to a 10D.

As for Pentax's *ist entry, I'm sure it's just what others are looking for, but it's not for me; regardless of the price. I want something with a tad of bulk like my old Pentax; something that doesn't get lost in my hands, and has a little tonnage to it.

The down side of course with the 10D would be having to change to the Canon Forum just after I've managed to almost figure out who's who here: alot of very talented people with great advice in this group. Anyway, we'll see.

Cheers
Frank B.
(Still patiently waiting for my on-order 7Hi)

 

[Petteri Sulonen]

Well for me, I'm just waiting to find out how the 10D price will
stand up against the 7Hi ($1,999.00CDN) at the local shop
(Henry's). And then how much for a "reasonable" quality zoom to
start with. If the total's within spitting distance of the 7Hi,
I'll give serious consideration to switching my order to a 10D.

You'll prob. end up paying about twice the price of a 7Hi.

As for Pentax's *ist entry, I'm sure it's just what others are
looking for, but it's not for me; regardless of the price. I want
something with a tad of bulk like my old Pentax; something that
doesn't get lost in my hands, and has a little tonnage to it.

I know what you mean. I like shooting with a hefty camera too. The problem is I don't like carrying it. Back when I had a T70 and a couple of lenses, I ended up leaving it home way too often. However, the AE-1 with 50 mm comes with me. I wish they came up with a camera that had adjustable mass...

[snip]

Petteri
--
http://www.seittipaja.fi/index/