new sony cameras

jk

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i saw them yesterday at sony's open house for dealers

the cybershot dscv1 is awesome its a g3 c5050 type camera but better

includes hot show that will use sonys new dedicated flash or u can use any non dedicated flash but u have to enable the center pin in the menu

also they removed digital zoom from their new cameras instead they have smart zoom which does not interpolate the pixels like digital zoom

they also added saturation and tone control which sony previously didnt have , well done sony also all new models including the previously released dscf 717 are memory stick pro compatible which will eventualy reach 1 gb

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
 
Someone PLEASE explain.. Is the extra 1x the only thing that makes the BLOATED F717 camera to be better than this new mini DSC-V1 ? I recently bought the f717 and it's huge. Are there other advantages to this huge camera in comparison the the new DSC-V1 ? If so, what sre they? ...Please help!

Uri Kirstein
 
the 717 has a 2.0 maximum aperture the v1 will have a 2.8
Someone PLEASE explain.. Is the extra 1x the only thing that makes
the BLOATED F717 camera to be better than this new mini DSC-V1 ? I
recently bought the f717 and it's huge. Are there other advantages
to this huge camera in comparison the the new DSC-V1 ? If so, what
sre they? ...Please help!

Uri Kirstein
--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
 
also according to one of the sony engineers one of the other new developements in the digital camera industry is there will be a uniform battery testing thing , where all the manufacturers will now report battery life to a more uniform test so when they report on the spec sheets how long the estimated battery life for a digi cam will be it will be more accurate
the test will be something similar to what phil does now

basicly you shoot one picture with the zoom at wide without flash wait 30 seconds and then zoom out and use flash and use the lcd for all pictures

and repeat , according to this testing format the batteries in the cybershot p10 and 8 which are their smallest batteries (npfc11 and npfc10) they should last for about an hour of course batteries in the 717 and the mavicas last longer because they are bigger and have larger capacities
i saw them yesterday at sony's open house for dealers

the cybershot dscv1 is awesome its a g3 c5050 type camera but better
includes hot show that will use sonys new dedicated flash or u can
use any non dedicated flash but u have to enable the center pin in
the menu
also they removed digital zoom from their new cameras instead they
have smart zoom which does not interpolate the pixels like digital
zoom

they also added saturation and tone control which sony previously
didnt have , well done sony also all new models including the
previously released dscf 717 are memory stick pro compatible which
will eventualy reach 1 gb

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
 
Is that better or worse ? Is it so significant as to make up the size difference between the 2 cameras ?
  • Uri
Someone PLEASE explain.. Is the extra 1x the only thing that makes
the BLOATED F717 camera to be better than this new mini DSC-V1 ? I
recently bought the f717 and it's huge. Are there other advantages
to this huge camera in comparison the the new DSC-V1 ? If so, what
sre they? ...Please help!

Uri Kirstein
--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
 
  • Uri
the 717 has a 2.0 maximum aperture the v1 will have a 2.8
It is better, you have a faster/brighter lens (1 full stop) which gives you more exposure options when shooting. With this you will be able to shooting at double the shutter speed of the the V1. Think of it like an extra 30 hp in your car engine - you might not use it all the time, but it can come in handy.

In addition the zoom factor is deceiving. The V1 is 34-136mm, while the 717 is 38-190mm. This means at full telephoto 717 will be able to enlarge a section of the scene nearly double area of the V1.

Finally, I suspect that the smaller V1 lens will in general be less sharp than the F717 lens...

For me, these are all very good reasons to have a larger lens.
--Arvin

Perhaps you should read a little bit about cameras and lens before continuing in this discussion. Here are some links you might find useful.

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/Glossary/Exposure/
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/glossary/Optical/
 
  • Uri
Someone PLEASE explain.. Is the extra 1x the only thing that makes
the BLOATED F717 camera to be better than this new mini DSC-V1 ? I
recently bought the f717 and it's huge. Are there other advantages
to this huge camera in comparison the the new DSC-V1 ? If so, what
sre they? ...Please help!

Uri Kirstein
--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
I'm sorry to be rude; but, if you paid that much for a camera not having even the most vague idea of it's virtues then I think that either you have such a large disposable income that you don't really need my help at all or that you spend money you shouldn't frivolously and I couldn't possibly offer as much help as you'd need. Anything in between these two possibilites I can't fathom.

I'm sure others here will be kinder with their time, and bless them for their good natures.

slackjawed,
savagemike
 
i saw them yesterday at sony's open house for dealers

the cybershot dscv1 is awesome its a g3 c5050 type camera but better
includes hot show that will use sonys new dedicated flash or u can
use any non dedicated flash but u have to enable the center pin in
the menu
also they removed digital zoom from their new cameras instead they
have smart zoom which does not interpolate the pixels like digital
zoom

they also added saturation and tone control which sony previously
didnt have , well done sony also all new models including the
previously released dscf 717 are memory stick pro compatible which
will eventualy reach 1 gb

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
Sony should get a clue and design it a swivel LCD.
 
i saw them yesterday at sony's open house for dealers

the cybershot dscv1 is awesome its a g3 c5050 type camera but better
includes hot show that will use sonys new dedicated flash or u can
use any non dedicated flash but u have to enable the center pin in
the menu
also they removed digital zoom from their new cameras instead they
have smart zoom which does not interpolate the pixels like digital
zoom

they also added saturation and tone control which sony previously
didnt have , well done sony also all new models including the
previously released dscf 717 are memory stick pro compatible which
will eventualy reach 1 gb

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
Sony should get a clue and design it a swivel LCD.
oh yeah, and a RAW file format as well.
 
I love Michael Savage ! But please re-read the forum rules:

Be civil - anyone being abusive, calling names or generally trying to stir up trouble will not be tolerated. If you think someone is wrong it may be because they are new, don't jump on them, think first.
AND: Flame / Attacks - We do not tolerate abusive, malicious, personal attacks.

BUT- THANK YOU for your precious time. As you suspected I do -not- know about cameras -BUT- I did know j u s t e n o u g h to understand that f7X7 was the_one_to_buy, after seeing sample pics etc..

THEN - I saw SonyCams.com calling the dsc-V1 THE NEW "MINI F717" !! CLAIMING it has the same feature set as f717 ! Wow that sounded like a real bummer at first because it is so much smaller and more convenient to carry around than the f717.

And SO... I begged of your precious time to explain why I would want to carry a HEFTY MONSTER around instead of the tiny DSC-V1.

I THANK Arvin for explaining to me in a detailed and nice way and for his recommendations in my reading up on the topic of lenses etc..

THANKS GUYS !
  • Uri
I'm sorry to be rude; but, if you paid that much for a camera not
having even the most vague idea of it's virtues then I think that
either you have such a large disposable income that you don't
really need my help at all or that you spend money you shouldn't
frivolously and I couldn't possibly offer as much help as you'd
need. Anything in between these two possibilites I can't fathom.
I'm sure others here will be kinder with their time, and bless them
for their good natures.

slackjawed,
savagemike
 
But didn't that RAW format develop as a workaround because the engineers for the other manufacturers couldn't get their cameras to produce a correct shot right out of the camera? So, users were forced to do all the work that should have been done 'in-camera' on their own computers. Sounds like a waste of time to me!
 
I can't tell if you are, I'm going to assume you are not.

Think of the RAW format as like developing your own film instead of taking it to the one-hour photo. Or even more general, like making a meal from scratch compared to buying pre-cut/seasoned just-heat meals. It definitely requires more time and effort from the user, but if the user is skilled - he/she can obtain superior results compared to the generic pre-made variety.

Obviously this is not for everyone as you often can get nearly as good results with the premade variety. Especially since most people don't know much about image processing. However, some people (small group) would find this feature interesting and useful to have.

In reply to some else post, I would also like a G3'esque LCD. The F707/F717 swivel body is nice... but limited like when you want to shoot with a portrait framing (on its side) because you can no longer shoot "from the hip" or high above your head to get different perspective angles.

--arvin
 
RAW was never meant for the average user to access which is why there developed a whole "cottage industry" of utilities to enable RAW format to be read. Only recently have the some Photoediting packages and manufacturer's camera software begun to offer any support for it at all!

The problem that I see is that if the camera doesn't produce the best results straight out of the camera then perhaps it is not very welll engineered.

If one of the advantages of digital cameras in general is 'speed' then isn't it a huge waste of time to have to make those sort of adjustments that should have been made in the camera in the first place?

I sdon't think we are talking about any great 'creativity' involved in playing with RAW format images...it is just a way of by-passing lousy in-camera processing...which is...a workaround for a camera problem and not a feature to be wished for if your camera doesn't need it.
I can't tell if you are, I'm going to assume you are not.

Think of the RAW format as like developing your own film instead of
taking it to the one-hour photo. Or even more general, like making
a meal from scratch compared to buying pre-cut/seasoned just-heat
meals. It definitely requires more time and effort from the user,
but if the user is skilled - he/she can obtain superior results
compared to the generic pre-made variety.

Obviously this is not for everyone as you often can get nearly as
good results with the premade variety. Especially since most people
don't know much about image processing. However, some people (small
group) would find this feature interesting and useful to have.

In reply to some else post, I would also like a G3'esque LCD. The
F707/F717 swivel body is nice... but limited like when you want to
shoot with a portrait framing (on its side) because you can no
longer shoot "from the hip" or high above your head to get
different perspective angles.

--arvin
 
Have you even actually used RAW before? Have you ever developed your own film? Have you ever made a meal from scratch? My guess is not, because if you had, you would at least understand why some people might want RAW formats.
RAW was never meant for the average user to access which is why
there developed a whole "cottage industry" of utilities to enable
RAW format to be read. Only recently have the some Photoediting
packages and manufacturer's camera software begun to offer any
support for it at all!
Huh? RAW support has been around for years... Bibble and Qimage Pro (two very powerful photo editing packages) had it back in 2000. Minolta, Canon, and Olympus Nikon have had RAW converters since way back when. Here's a like showing Canon's RAW converter for the D30 (back in 2000).
The problem that I see is that if the camera doesn't produce the
best results straight out of the camera then perhaps it is not very
welll engineered.
Again, I don't think you really understand that NO camera can produce the best results. If you've ever read any articles of darkroom technique, you would result that a LOT of work is done after the photo like adjusting contrast or burn/dodge elements in the photo. In the instance of burns/dodging, it is impossible for any camera to selectively adjust the amount of exposure for different parts of the images to yield a more 'artistically' interesting photo... the camera has no sense of this.
If one of the advantages of digital cameras in general is 'speed'
then isn't it a huge waste of time to have to make those sort of
adjustments that should have been made in the camera in the first
place?
Like I mentioned before... speed is good, but you can't always take it to the extreme because you will be sacrificing other things in the process. It is a tradeoff between speed and quality. You wouldn't want every chef in the world to throw out their cooking wares and heat everything with a microwave just because it's fast would you?

Providing the option allows "some people" to give up some speed so that they might get a slight gain in quality. This is obviously not for everyone as "most" people prefer speed/convenience. However, for those select few who are willing to spend the extra time, and have the proper ability... RAW format gives them that flexibility.
I sdon't think we are talking about any great 'creativity' involved
in playing with RAW format images...it is just a way of by-passing
lousy in-camera processing...which is...a workaround for a camera
problem and not a feature to be wished for if your camera doesn't
need it.
Not really, with the RAW format you get superior control over the as you get the "raw" data. This allow you manipulate a LOT, for instance suppose you are doing B and W photography and want to intensify the sky like if you were to use a yellow or even red 72A filter. With the raw data you can do this more easily and with better results than JPEG. Without going to deeply into the details, the discrete cosine transformation (DCT) compression scheme used by JPEG kind of mixes up all the data into a hodge podge. Processing this data is rather hard to do after the fact - in particular retrieving highlight/shadow detail, it would be like deciding half way through that you want less sugar in your cake mix (how would you go about removing sugar from the mix?).

It's too bad I can't post some excerpts from the photo technique magazines that I have or even my book about Ansel Adams's most famous photo where he goes step by step on how took a great photo and made an amazing image from it in the darkroom... but here is an example look at this photo of the "Grand Tetons and the Snake River"

http://www.anseladams.com/

Nice image right? Well this is basically impossible to do coming straight out of the camera. You see how the mountain kind of pop out at you beyond the glowing sky with the dark ominous clouds? That effect was done with a lot of darkroom work, in particular I suspect Adams burned in the clouds a bit and maybe dodged the center a bit. Are you telling me this is is not 'great creativity'? Most people don't have the vision and skill to do something like this, let alone a machine... now this "can" be done with JPEG, but it is even better with RAW. The analogy would be to like the difference between working with a pre-print (making a copy from a copy) or working with the original negative.

--Arvin
 
arvin isright , raw is simply the entire data that the ccd collects unproccesed hence the need for raw converters to convert(process) the image while converting you can give a new set of instructions(, tone, white balance, sharpness, contrast, hue )to the image , and when you convert it you get a new image with the new instruct at the same time you keep the original raw sort of like a digital negative and since you are using the complete data that was captureds by the ccd you get 36 bits color instead of 24
RAW was never meant for the average user to access which is why
there developed a whole "cottage industry" of utilities to enable
RAW format to be read. Only recently have the some Photoediting
packages and manufacturer's camera software begun to offer any
support for it at all!
Huh? RAW support has been around for years... Bibble and Qimage Pro
(two very powerful photo editing packages) had it back in 2000.
Minolta, Canon, and Olympus Nikon have had RAW converters since way
back when. Here's a like showing Canon's RAW converter for the D30
(back in 2000).
The problem that I see is that if the camera doesn't produce the
best results straight out of the camera then perhaps it is not very
welll engineered.
Again, I don't think you really understand that NO camera can
produce the best results. If you've ever read any articles of
darkroom technique, you would result that a LOT of work is done
after the photo like adjusting contrast or burn/dodge elements in
the photo. In the instance of burns/dodging, it is impossible for
any camera to selectively adjust the amount of exposure for
different parts of the images to yield a more 'artistically'
interesting photo... the camera has no sense of this.
If one of the advantages of digital cameras in general is 'speed'
then isn't it a huge waste of time to have to make those sort of
adjustments that should have been made in the camera in the first
place?
Like I mentioned before... speed is good, but you can't always take
it to the extreme because you will be sacrificing other things in
the process. It is a tradeoff between speed and quality. You
wouldn't want every chef in the world to throw out their cooking
wares and heat everything with a microwave just because it's fast
would you?

Providing the option allows "some people" to give up some speed so
that they might get a slight gain in quality. This is obviously not
for everyone as "most" people prefer speed/convenience. However,
for those select few who are willing to spend the extra time, and
have the proper ability... RAW format gives them that flexibility.
I sdon't think we are talking about any great 'creativity' involved
in playing with RAW format images...it is just a way of by-passing
lousy in-camera processing...which is...a workaround for a camera
problem and not a feature to be wished for if your camera doesn't
need it.
Not really, with the RAW format you get superior control over the
as you get the "raw" data. This allow you manipulate a LOT, for
instance suppose you are doing B and W photography and want to
intensify the sky like if you were to use a yellow or even red 72A
filter. With the raw data you can do this more easily and with
better results than JPEG. Without going to deeply into the details,
the discrete cosine transformation (DCT) compression scheme used by
JPEG kind of mixes up all the data into a hodge podge. Processing
this data is rather hard to do after the fact - in particular
retrieving highlight/shadow detail, it would be like deciding half
way through that you want less sugar in your cake mix (how would
you go about removing sugar from the mix?).

It's too bad I can't post some excerpts from the photo technique
magazines that I have or even my book about Ansel Adams's most
famous photo where he goes step by step on how took a great photo
and made an amazing image from it in the darkroom... but here is an
example look at this photo of the "Grand Tetons and the Snake River"

http://www.anseladams.com/

Nice image right? Well this is basically impossible to do coming
straight out of the camera. You see how the mountain kind of pop
out at you beyond the glowing sky with the dark ominous clouds?
That effect was done with a lot of darkroom work, in particular I
suspect Adams burned in the clouds a bit and maybe dodged the
center a bit. Are you telling me this is is not 'great creativity'?
Most people don't have the vision and skill to do something like
this, let alone a machine... now this "can" be done with JPEG, but
it is even better with RAW. The analogy would be to like the
difference between working with a pre-print (making a copy from a
copy) or working with the original negative.

--Arvin
--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
 
Another big advantage of RAW files is they are lot smmaller in file size compared to the TIFF equivelant.

So you have a smaller file size, which allows faster writing to the flash memory, thus faster shooting. As an added benefit, much greater flexibilty in post-processing.

Some of the RAW processing applications work so well, I can create images far superior to non-raw images shot from cameras with higher resolution.

It's no mistake that the higher-end DSLRs support RAW format.

I would much rather have control over my images. There no one magic setting for RAW> TIFF conversion. Each image presents different variables that have to be addressed for good quality. Otherwise it becomes a poor comprimise.

That's the difference from "taking" a photo and "creating" a photo.
 
how was its macro shot? does it really go 1.2 inch close to objects? i'm looking for a camera with great macro shot range, so just curious... -cake
i saw them yesterday at sony's open house for dealers

the cybershot dscv1 is awesome its a g3 c5050 type camera but better
includes hot show that will use sonys new dedicated flash or u can
use any non dedicated flash but u have to enable the center pin in
the menu
also they removed digital zoom from their new cameras instead they
have smart zoom which does not interpolate the pixels like digital
zoom

they also added saturation and tone control which sony previously
didnt have , well done sony also all new models including the
previously released dscf 717 are memory stick pro compatible which
will eventualy reach 1 gb

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
 
I suppose some people need the exercise and so they play around with RAW files thinking they are doing something just to end up with the same thing that other people get right out of their cameras!

I wouldn't spend much on a camera that required me to manually fix every shot. As soon as I see the reviewers talking about RAW mode I think "Oh, oh, what's the problem with the camera that the user has to adjust each shot?"
Have you even actually used RAW before? Have you ever developed
your own film? Have you ever made a meal from scratch? My guess is
not, because if you had, you would at least understand why some
people might want RAW formats.
 

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