Anti-Saddam Rally?

[jk]

wisey i am afraid if you wait too long it may be too late because sadam might send some anthrax or worse with his henchmen and then you may not be around anymore

Does that mean that the 'Anti Vietnam War' demonstrations had no
bearing on bringing an end to that war?

I still believe there must be another way than to attack Iraq. Even
if it takes years. Lets all take our finger off the trigger.

Cheers,

Rob
5700 Gallery http://www.edgestudio.com.au/5700/5700.html
website: http://www.edgestudio.com.au

I agree with someone who posted on another thread, that all of
these anti-war demonstrators think they're gonna stop this war,
when truth be known it's my opinion their protests will make it
more likely there will be a war.
God Bless,
Jim
CP995, CP800
http://www.pbase.com/jrj02

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain

 

[Larry H. Smith]

My personal frustration is that we probably are agreeing on
content (dis-arm) but not form and timing.. And that any questions
to this are taken as a support to Iraq and all other nasty things…

IMHO we should all be very careful about assuming that we know any poster's philosophy because of some point he chooses to make.

Humans and their ideas/beliefs are complex-

In spite of tv "news"casts that reduce a whole culture's sentiment to a small convenient and hopefully "sensational' sound-byte.

One "quack' doesn't really make someone a duck (it takes at least two ;-)

Larry

 

[Larry H. Smith]

Jarrel, If you post a response please do not be offended if I do
not respond back.
I find these discussions get us nowhere and is only upsetting what
was, until now, a great forum for photography. It is a subject full
of passion for all of us and I do not at present have the energy
nor time to fully debate the pros and cons of the thread. I was
silly enough, in the heat of the moment, to get caught up in the
subject, even though I really should have known better.

How many of us could make use of this comment now and again in our postings?

Me, for sure!

I use the pscho-escape of sick humor as an overload relief-device.

Here's my answer to Sodamn Insane:

In ANY such sticky-situation, simply round up a group of this week's Hollywood action-heroes (Willis, Stallone, etc.) and let them do some of the sneak-in "terminate" sneak-out stuff they're so good at.

Fail-safe and (if we film it) profitable!

Problem solved!

Now, ...what next?

Larry

 

[rapick]

For us (Europeans) it's much more complicated. We have much in
common with US people (basically alll that is understuud as
Western Civilisation ). Most uf us look at your democrarcy as a
model (but also see some degenerative processes there).

I agree with the first part, but not the second -- I don't think
most UK citizens regard the US democracy as being a "model".

But please consider that a serious
opinion poll here in Italy is showing about 70% of Italians are for
Peace wthout if and without but , i.e. the US war against Iraq
would not be justified in any case. Don't get driven wrong by the
different position of our government: you can like it or not, this
is the majority opinion all over Europe (maybe except Britain).

All recent opinion polls here in Britain show that the majority of
the population are opposed to war with Iraq, especially without a
second concrete and unambiguous resolution from the United Nations
to justify war. (Only about 10% support a war without a second UN
resolution, whereas with a resolution it is about 45%.) Opinion
polls show that in recent days Tony Blair's popularity has
plummeted and he is most definitely not representative of the
British people.

Terry.

--
Terry,
Thanks a lot for your clarifications on the real feeling in Britain.

You understand here in Italy, with 3 major private TV Channels owned by Mr Berlusconi, and 2 out of 3 public TV Channels controlled by the Berlusconi government, it can be rather difficult to get independent information!
Ciao
Rapick

 

[rapick]

I would really appreciate your opinion on all that.
Yours sincerely.

THIS DEBATE HAS NO PLACE IN THIS FORUM. PHIL, WHY DON'T YOU PUT AN
END TO IT?

Andres Bernhard (Rapick)

PS - Thanks a lot to Phil for letting us debate on the war issue
inside this forum - our lives are not just photography, after all -
and the First Amendment is still there.

--
Rapick

 

[jk]

rapick you are talking about people who have never been to the USA , who have never experienced a true democracy, you are talking about people who have been brainwashed by a good P.R. machine about everything ba about the USA.. i will tell you one thing i will never trade in my usa citizenship for any money in the world,you are talking about people who are hypocrates , where were they when hitler was exterminating the jews , huh thats right they were silent why wermt they demonstrating no more war? where were they when milosevich in yugoslavia was exterminating the people there ? huh why are you silent no demonstrations there to stop the war , and the french and germans were forcing the americans to honor their nato commitments to join against milosevic. so why are you anti war mongrels not demonstrating against saddam after all he is exterminating his people by the heavy thousands , you know why because you guys are blind and dumb , all you people know is to hate the USA . when its the other guy you should be yelling at .

i will tell you another thing suppose saddam gave bio and chemical weapons to al queada and they use it against me here in new york.. i will come loooking for you and haunt you why you didnt protest against saddam and for the usa my blood will be on your conscience

You have the First Amendment written there in the Constitution. We
have the same rights granted here in Europe, too (and we owe much
for this to your fathers and grandfathers who came here to fight
for freedom against the two worst tyrant of the last century, and
then stayed here to face the theats from the third one - Stalin).
Poor Iraqi haven't, and never had.
But let me tell this:
I worked a few months in Qatar during the last year. One day at
sunrise I was travelling as usual from Doha city to our workplace
in the desert, sitting aside our van driver (an expatriate from
India, very good boy).
At once we saw a huge USAF cargo plane landing at the nearby US
military base. The driver's comment was "Look, YOUR friends are
coming ..."
The point is:
The guy didn't feel any sympathy for Saddam, or Osama, or any kind
of terrorists and tyrants. On the contrary, as I understood from
different talks, he was proud of the parliamentary democracy of his
own country. Nevertheless, he didn't love USA at all.
Are you aware this is the feeling of a few billions of people in
Asia, Africa and Latin America?
For us (Europeans) it's much more complicated. We have much in
common with US people (basically alll that is understuud as
Western Civilisation ). Most uf us look at your democrarcy as a
model (but also see some degenerative processes there). What really
hurts us, IMO, is the US government ruling over the whole world
with no consideration for our point of view (you vote for them, we
don't), and the arrogant way they are acquainted to use. How can
you pretend our consensus ? Yes, we bear heavy responsibilities
for this (e.g. UE countries UK, France, Italy, Germany, etc. are
never able to build a common foreign policy) it's ridiculous, just
like our military power ... But please consider that a serious
opinion poll here in Italy is showing about 70% of Italians are for
Peace wthout if and without but , i.e. the US war against Iraq
would not be justified in any case. Don't get driven wrong by the
different position of our government: you can like it or not, this
is the majority opinion all over Europe (maybe except Britain).
Also, there is an old man from Poland here in Rome, who strongly
disagrees with the US position on war to Iraq. He isn't a freak!
Please remember he alone made much more for causing the final
collapse of the Soviet power than any Star Shield planned by the R.
Reagan administration!
I would really appreciate your opinion on all that.
Yours sincerely.

Andres Bernhard (Rapick)

PS - Thanks a lot to Phil for letting us debate on the war issue
inside this forum - our lives are not just photography, after all -
and the First Amendment is still there.

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain

 

[jk]

larry i love your style , keep telling it as it is

sunrise I was travelling as usual from Doha city to our workplace
in the desert, sitting aside our van driver (an expatriate from
India, very good boy).
At once we saw a huge USAF cargo plane landing at the nearby US
military base. The driver's comment was "Look, YOUR friends are
coming ..."
The point is:
The guy didn't feel any sympathy for Saddam, or Osama, or any kind
of terrorists and tyrants. On the contrary, as I understood from
different talks, he was proud of the parliamentary democracy of his
own country. Nevertheless, he didn't love USA at all.

So a "very good boy" from a "parliamentary democracy" where some
are reduced to shoveling sh*t for a living, (courtesy of the caste
system--"unclean" dontchaknow), and where both culture and
authority look the other way while "excess" or
"unprofitable"(dowery-wise) daughters are set afire in so-called
kitchen-accidents, finds fault with the imperfect USA?

How disturbing! (Is this the same government one-of-whose favorite
sports is nuclear "sabre-ratteling" vs Pakistan?)

please consider that a serious
opinion poll here in Italy is showing about 70% of Italians are for
Peace wthout if and without but , i.e. the US war against Iraq
would not be justified in any case.

So "no if, no but, no war"?

That attitude certainly would have served the world well if such
Italians had been in charge in Hitler's day. (Oh, wait. Those kind
of thinkers were already in the grip of Mussolini, no? Anyone
remember how they got out?)

Oh yes, ...let's let the Italians decide what should be done.

Also, there is an old man from Poland here in Rome, who strongly > disagrees with the US position on > war to Iraq. He isn't a freak! Please > remember he alone made much more for causing the final > > collapse of > the Soviet power than any Star Shield planned by the R. Reagan > administration

Come to think of it there was a Pope then too, if I recall, ... he
probably could have "prayed" the Axis Germans, Japs, AND "Moosy"
away then too, if he'd wanted to.

Wonder why he didn't? (Probably too-busy praying for the Americans
to come.)

Forgive me for DIS-believing that the big "P"(or Billy Graham, for
that matter) has such a red-phone connection to the Creator that he
would make the best director for this planet.(Oops, ...left out
Rev. Moon.)

Keep in mind that there are a whole bunch of Americans who may or
may-not care for any given president, Reagan, Bush, or otherwise,
...but these are the ones who will still come and die to free
your's or any other country that our human-and-sometimes-wrong but
at-least-chosen-and-influenced-by-the-people leaders decide we
should go to.

When is the last time that Italy OR India sent any sort of aid to
the US(unless you count thousands of immigrants who come here for a
better life -- high tech computer workers, anyone?)

Speaking of India in particular, the best school in the country
loses their best and brightest grads to the US. (They choose the
brightest by asking "Everybody raise their hand, who wants to go to
the US!")

And some probably-not-a-rocket-scientist "good boy" truck-driver
doesn't like us?

Now you're making me cry. :-(

I would really appreciate your opinion on all that.
Yours sincerely.

Gladly given, ...also sincerely,

Larry

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain

 

[Sundance138872]

rapick you are talking about people who have never been to the USA
, who have never experienced a true democracy, you are talking
about people who have been brainwashed by a good P.R. machine about
everything ba about the USA.. i will tell you one thing i will
never trade in my usa citizenship for any money in the world,you
are talking about people who are hypocrates , where were they when
hitler was exterminating the jews , huh thats right they were
silent why wermt they demonstrating no more war? where were they
when milosevich in yugoslavia was exterminating the people there ?
huh why are you silent no demonstrations there to stop the war ,
and the french and germans were forcing the americans to honor
their nato commitments to join against milosevic. so why are you
anti war mongrels not demonstrating against saddam after all he is
exterminating his people by the heavy thousands , you know why
because you guys are blind and dumb , all you people know is to
hate the USA . when its the other guy you should be yelling at .

i will tell you another thing suppose saddam gave bio and chemical
weapons to al queada and they use it against me here in new york..
i will come loooking for you and haunt you why you didnt protest
against saddam and for the usa my blood will be on your conscience

--

You are missing the point about protests I think. It dosn´t do any good to protest against somebody so completely out of reach. I hate to think that You consider Your own government in the same league as Hitler or Hussein, as democratic citizens We have a right (and Duty?) to make ourselves heard, so the politicians can get a feel for what is going on in their respective countries. All this "You people hate USA" every time Somebody has the nerve to critisize anything about Your country doesn´t really lead anywhere. I suppose You don´t think that everybody that dissagrees with You is an enemy?

I happen to agree that a war against Iraq is probably necessary, but I also question the Bush governments motivations. As it is, I would think the end result is more important than motives, and it would be a grace in the long run for the Iraqi´s to get rid of Saddam Hussein. Ask the Iraqi refugees around the world. Then of course, there´s a number of other regimes around the world You/We could do the same to. If We can find the motivation....
Best regards, Sundance

 

[Sundance138872]

sunrise I was travelling as usual from Doha city to our workplace
in the desert, sitting aside our van driver (an expatriate from
India, very good boy).
At once we saw a huge USAF cargo plane landing at the nearby US
military base. The driver's comment was "Look, YOUR friends are
coming ..."
The point is:
The guy didn't feel any sympathy for Saddam, or Osama, or any kind
of terrorists and tyrants. On the contrary, as I understood from
different talks, he was proud of the parliamentary democracy of his
own country. Nevertheless, he didn't love USA at all.

So a "very good boy" from a "parliamentary democracy" where some
are reduced to shoveling sh*t for a living, (courtesy of the caste
system--"unclean" dontchaknow), and where both culture and
authority look the other way while "excess" or
"unprofitable"(dowery-wise) daughters are set afire in so-called
kitchen-accidents, finds fault with the imperfect USA?

How disturbing! (Is this the same government one-of-whose favorite
sports is nuclear "sabre-ratteling" vs Pakistan?)

please consider that a serious
opinion poll here in Italy is showing about 70% of Italians are for
Peace wthout if and without but , i.e. the US war against Iraq
would not be justified in any case.

So "no if, no but, no war"?

That attitude certainly would have served the world well if such
Italians had been in charge in Hitler's day. (Oh, wait. Those kind
of thinkers were already in the grip of Mussolini, no? Anyone
remember how they got out?)

Oh yes, ...let's let the Italians decide what should be done.

Also, there is an old man from Poland here in Rome, who strongly > disagrees with the US position on > war to Iraq. He isn't a freak! Please > remember he alone made much more for causing the final > > collapse of > the Soviet power than any Star Shield planned by the R. Reagan > administration

Come to think of it there was a Pope then too, if I recall, ... he
probably could have "prayed" the Axis Germans, Japs, AND "Moosy"
away then too, if he'd wanted to.

Wonder why he didn't? (Probably too-busy praying for the Americans
to come.)

Forgive me for DIS-believing that the big "P"(or Billy Graham, for
that matter) has such a red-phone connection to the Creator that he
would make the best director for this planet.(Oops, ...left out
Rev. Moon.)

Keep in mind that there are a whole bunch of Americans who may or
may-not care for any given president, Reagan, Bush, or otherwise,
...but these are the ones who will still come and die to free
your's or any other country that our human-and-sometimes-wrong but
at-least-chosen-and-influenced-by-the-people leaders decide we
should go to.

When is the last time that Italy OR India sent any sort of aid to
the US(unless you count thousands of immigrants who come here for a
better life -- high tech computer workers, anyone?)

Speaking of India in particular, the best school in the country
loses their best and brightest grads to the US. (They choose the
brightest by asking "Everybody raise their hand, who wants to go to
the US!")

And some probably-not-a-rocket-scientist "good boy" truck-driver
doesn't like us?

Now you're making me cry. :-(

I would really appreciate your opinion on all that.
Yours sincerely.

Gladly given, ...also sincerely,

Larry

--

That was nice! You are obviously very proud of Your country (as am I of Mine) which is as it should be! Them maybe You could understand that this Indian truckdriver is also proud of his, to the extent that He might overlook some shortcomings of same! ( as You and I probably do too). It´s always easier to ridicule, and disqualify critisism that to embrace it for an honest review, but it´s the only way to get a better relation internationally as well as domestic.

Could You possibly cut those of Us who doesn´t have english as our native laguage some slack?

Sundance

 

[Brian]

There were massive pro-US rallies in S. Korea a while back. They were mostly hosted by the older generation that understands freedom and the price that is paid for freedom.

Most young people take everything for granted. It isn't until their baby, mother, sister, etc have been killed that they then understand. I hate the prospects of many thousands of innocent people being killed because of war, but I also hate to think how many would die without it.

I really hope a peaceful solution can be worked out. The thing that really dissapoints me about all this is that even if there were a war, it still doesn't address the threat of terrorism. But that is something that anti-war fanatics haven't figured out what to do either.

The only way to deal with terrorists is to befriend the countries where the hate originates to the point that their own people will turn on the terrorists themselves and stop supporting them and sympathising with them. And this is a very hard thing to do. And the sad part is that often the first step is war.

i will tell you another thing suppose saddam gave bio and chemical
weapons to al queada and they use it against me here in new york..
i will come loooking for you and haunt you why you didnt protest
against saddam and for the usa my blood will be on your conscience

You have the First Amendment written there in the Constitution. We
have the same rights granted here in Europe, too (and we owe much
for this to your fathers and grandfathers who came here to fight
for freedom against the two worst tyrant of the last century, and
then stayed here to face the theats from the third one - Stalin).
Poor Iraqi haven't, and never had.
But let me tell this:
I worked a few months in Qatar during the last year. One day at
sunrise I was travelling as usual from Doha city to our workplace
in the desert, sitting aside our van driver (an expatriate from
India, very good boy).
At once we saw a huge USAF cargo plane landing at the nearby US
military base. The driver's comment was "Look, YOUR friends are
coming ..."
The point is:
The guy didn't feel any sympathy for Saddam, or Osama, or any kind
of terrorists and tyrants. On the contrary, as I understood from
different talks, he was proud of the parliamentary democracy of his
own country. Nevertheless, he didn't love USA at all.
Are you aware this is the feeling of a few billions of people in
Asia, Africa and Latin America?
For us (Europeans) it's much more complicated. We have much in
common with US people (basically alll that is understuud as
Western Civilisation ). Most uf us look at your democrarcy as a
model (but also see some degenerative processes there). What really
hurts us, IMO, is the US government ruling over the whole world
with no consideration for our point of view (you vote for them, we
don't), and the arrogant way they are acquainted to use. How can
you pretend our consensus ? Yes, we bear heavy responsibilities
for this (e.g. UE countries UK, France, Italy, Germany, etc. are
never able to build a common foreign policy) it's ridiculous, just
like our military power ... But please consider that a serious
opinion poll here in Italy is showing about 70% of Italians are for
Peace wthout if and without but , i.e. the US war against Iraq
would not be justified in any case. Don't get driven wrong by the
different position of our government: you can like it or not, this
is the majority opinion all over Europe (maybe except Britain).
Also, there is an old man from Poland here in Rome, who strongly
disagrees with the US position on war to Iraq. He isn't a freak!
Please remember he alone made much more for causing the final
collapse of the Soviet power than any Star Shield planned by the R.
Reagan administration!
I would really appreciate your opinion on all that.
Yours sincerely.

Andres Bernhard (Rapick)

PS - Thanks a lot to Phil for letting us debate on the war issue
inside this forum - our lives are not just photography, after all -
and the First Amendment is still there.

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain

--
Brian

• C-7OO, and some other stuff

 

[jk]

i dont care about motivations saddams should have been removed back in teh '80's of course we gave him weapons and money to fight the evil empire of the moment which was the iranians , and we gave the mullahs of the taliban weapons and money to fight the russians who were the bad guys of that moment i know and it all is coming to bite us in the rear ..but now when a president finally wants to do the right thing (as opposed to the previous president who ignored it and dreamed it would go away on its own)do i like war no do i want war no , but hell yes i want saddam to disappear i know he is a freaking madman who will hand over to al-quada some very bad bio/chem stuff , and he probably has he is also a jerk who will jerk the world around to stallus from removing him all that gibberish that the protesters are jawing about isnt helping all its doing is enabling and giving strengh to saddam to defy the UN and THE USA and as for the french well their stupidity will come back to haunt them , i can go on and on and on but talking about this topic is stressfull and i dont need more stress

rapick you are talking about people who have never been to the USA
, who have never experienced a true democracy, you are talking
about people who have been brainwashed by a good P.R. machine about
everything ba about the USA.. i will tell you one thing i will
never trade in my usa citizenship for any money in the world,you
are talking about people who are hypocrates , where were they when
hitler was exterminating the jews , huh thats right they were
silent why wermt they demonstrating no more war? where were they
when milosevich in yugoslavia was exterminating the people there ?
huh why are you silent no demonstrations there to stop the war ,
and the french and germans were forcing the americans to honor
their nato commitments to join against milosevic. so why are you
anti war mongrels not demonstrating against saddam after all he is
exterminating his people by the heavy thousands , you know why
because you guys are blind and dumb , all you people know is to
hate the USA . when its the other guy you should be yelling at .

i will tell you another thing suppose saddam gave bio and chemical
weapons to al queada and they use it against me here in new york..
i will come loooking for you and haunt you why you didnt protest
against saddam and for the usa my blood will be on your conscience

--
You are missing the point about protests I think. It dosn´t do any
good to protest against somebody so completely out of reach. I hate
to think that You consider Your own government in the same league
as Hitler or Hussein, as democratic citizens We have a right (and
Duty?) to make ourselves heard, so the politicians can get a feel
for what is going on in their respective countries. All this "You
people hate USA" every time Somebody has the nerve to critisize
anything about Your country doesn´t really lead anywhere. I suppose
You don´t think that everybody that dissagrees with You is an enemy?
I happen to agree that a war against Iraq is probably necessary,
but I also question the Bush governments motivations. As it is, I
would think the end result is more important than motives, and it
would be a grace in the long run for the Iraqi´s to get rid of
Saddam Hussein. Ask the Iraqi refugees around the world. Then of
course, there´s a number of other regimes around the world You/We
could do the same to. If We can find the motivation....
Best regards, Sundance

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain

 

[rapick]

sunrise I was travelling as usual from Doha city to our workplace
in the desert, sitting aside our van driver (an expatriate from
India, very good boy).
At once we saw a huge USAF cargo plane landing at the nearby US
military base. The driver's comment was "Look, YOUR friends are
coming ..."
The point is:
The guy didn't feel any sympathy for Saddam, or Osama, or any kind
of terrorists and tyrants. On the contrary, as I understood from
different talks, he was proud of the parliamentary democracy of his
own country. Nevertheless, he didn't love USA at all.

So a "very good boy" from a "parliamentary democracy" where some
are reduced to shoveling sh*t for a living, (courtesy of the caste
system--"unclean" dontchaknow), and where both culture and
authority look the other way while "excess" or
"unprofitable"(dowery-wise) daughters are set afire in so-called
kitchen-accidents, finds fault with the imperfect USA?

How disturbing! (Is this the same government one-of-whose favorite
sports is nuclear "sabre-ratteling" vs Pakistan?)

He is a humble van driver, NOT the Indian PM! Comparison was between indian "democracy" (not the most perfect one) and the absolute monarchies ruling the whole Gulf area. Yes, all the kings and emirs in power there (except one, they say) support the US position vs Saddam. All other people there are not entitled to express an opinion.

In fact of civil rights, please consider that capital sentences are now widely considered "unhuman punishment", and banned, all over Europe.

please consider that a serious
opinion poll here in Italy is showing about 70% of Italians are for
Peace wthout if and without but , i.e. the US war against Iraq
would not be justified in any case.

So "no if, no but, no war"?

That attitude certainly would have served the world well if such
Italians had been in charge in Hitler's day. (Oh, wait. Those kind
of thinkers were already in the grip of Mussolini, no? Anyone
remember how they got out?)

Oh yes, ...let's let the Italians decide what should be done.

Thanks to the sacrifice of thousands of Americans (and also British, French, Canadians, Polish, Australians, New-Zealanders, etc., etc. including Russians and Italian partisans, we got rid of the bloody tyrants and recovered democracy. That means we have the right to express our opinions, even when these can disturb our govenrment, and the US government too.

Also, there is an old man from Poland here in Rome, who strongly > disagrees with the US position on > war to Iraq. He isn't a freak! Please > remember he alone made much more for causing the final > > collapse of > the Soviet power than any Star Shield planned by the R. Reagan > administration

Come to think of it there was a Pope then too, if I recall, ... he
probably could have "prayed" the Axis Germans, Japs, AND "Moosy"
away then too, if he'd wanted to.

Wonder why he didn't? (Probably too-busy praying for the Americans
to come.)

Forgive me for DIS-believing that the big "P"(or Billy Graham, for
that matter) has such a red-phone connection to the Creator that he
would make the best director for this planet.(Oops, ...left out
Rev. Moon.)

Once again, I refer to an individual, Karol Woitila, who fighted against the Nazis in Poland, and then had a decisive role in getting Poland, and then the whole east-Europe, including Russia, free from the ugly Soviet rule. The shameful behaviour of the Pope, many Roman Catholic bishops, and also of a number of representatives of the Protestant Churches in Germany before, during, and also after WWII is indeed another matter.

Keep in mind that there are a whole bunch of Americans who may or
may-not care for any given president, Reagan, Bush, or otherwise,
...but these are the ones who will still come and die to free
your's or any other country that our human-and-sometimes-wrong but
at-least-chosen-and-influenced-by-the-people leaders decide we
should go to.

I believed that in a democracy people are the Sovereign, and have the ultimate decision (or this happens only in Switzerland?)

When is the last time that Italy OR India sent any sort of aid to
the US(unless you count thousands of immigrants who come here for a
better life -- high tech computer workers, anyone?)

Speaking of India in particular, the best school in the country
loses their best and brightest grads to the US. (They choose the
brightest by asking "Everybody raise their hand, who wants to go to
the US!")

I know very well - I had a very brilliant Indian engineer working with me in an Italian company during 4 years - then he got a better salary from a US based company, and flied to the USA.

And some probably-not-a-rocket-scientist "good boy" truck-driver
doesn't like us?

That does not mean the brilliant Indians scientists and engineers working and living in the USA shall approve the decisions of the US government or share the opinions of the majority there. Isn't this the true meaning of freedom

Now you're making me cry. :-(

I would really appreciate your opinion on all that.
Yours sincerely.

Gladly given, ...also sincerely,

Larry

I repeat, the problem is consensus. US can defeat Saddam by themselves, but only world wide consensus could put an end to international terrorism, as it happened for struggle to piracy in the XIX century. And now, neither the majority of people within the NATO countries is supporting you.
--
Sincere thanks for your honest opinion. I disagree, but respect.
Rapick

 

[Larry H. Smith]

Not sure of your attitude, Sundance, ...mind holding both hands out
where I can see them?

The "proud" driver was neither being spoken-to, nor ridiculed.

The person who was being spoken-to was someone who had offered the truck-driver as (what?) an example of someone to whose taste American policy should be tailored? He was described as someone who "has no love for the US". (Does that TD care whether I "love" India? Am I offended that he doesn't? Not!)

It is interesting that those who loudly profess having "No use" for
the US often are first-in-line with their hand out as soon as they
THINK of one.

And what was being ridiculed (and yes, "disqualified" as essentially
meaningless) was the offerering of such a 'man-in-the-street' opinion
as if it should carry weight in the very complex and serious
decisions called for today.

I won't pay much attention to the TD's opinion as to whether I should
have heart-surgery either.

Then the poster proceeded to point to the equally-impressive
many-people-in-the-streets opinions from Italy, ...followed-up by a
thinly veiled reference to supposed abilities of a religious-leader
to better-handle things.

If you don't acknowledge that my response was specifically addressed
to those remarks, ...if you think the historical record re. India's
culture, Italy's role in WWII, and the harm-benefit balance of
religious prozelytization makes my remarks inappropriate or unfair,...

then feel free to make reasoned counter-points, ...rather than
suggesting (inaccurately )that I am ill-disposed toward any who have
some native-tongue other than English.

Simply-put, I think your last remark was uncalled-for.

My difference was not with the language but with what was said! I saw
nothing calling for an "embrace". ..rather someone shaking a finger
in America's face, suggesting that the offered examples should be
kept-in-mind, so-to-speak.

IMHO, they are weightless. Put simply: Some guy in some country
doesn't like the US. So? Italians (who have seldom fought ,at least
not for freedom) don't want a fight. So? Some Catholic imagines that
the Pope has special abilities. Is that news?

Hopefully you will note that I did not claim perfection for the US,
affection for Bush, nor certainty as to what course should be
followed re. Iraq. I did not wave a flag, nor hold up a cross, a
Torah, or a Schimitar.

I am simply discriminating as to whom I am willing to accept as an
"authority", ...and as to what anti-American remarks (however vague
or mild) I am willing to let go unanswered.

(For my part, what I will "note" is that Rapick has not addressed the
content of my remarks.)

Respectfully,

Larry

... maybe You could
understand that this Indian truckdriver is also proud of his(country), to
the extent that He might overlook some shortcomings of same! ( as
You and I probably do too). It´s always easier to ridicule, and
disqualify critisism that to embrace it for an honest review, but
it´s the only way to get a better relation internationally as well
as domestic.
Could You possibly cut those of Us who doesn´t have english as our
native laguage some slack?

 

[Larry H. Smith]

Thanks, Rapick.

His response appeared while iIas posting my last.

(For my part, what I will "note" is that Rapick has not addressed the
content of my remarks.)

Respectfully,

Larry

 

[Larry H. Smith]

In fact of civil rights, please consider that capital sentences are
now widely considered "unhuman punishment", and banned, all over
Europe.

Yes. My own opinion? As currently practised, I would replace it with life-without-parole for some offenders(unless subsequent evidence [DNA, etc.] warranted a reversal). Too many (maybe)innocents being executed.

Thanks to the sacrifice of thousands of Americans (and also
British, French, Canadians, Polish, Australians, New-Zealanders,
etc., etc. including Russians and Italian partisans, we got rid of
the bloody tyrants and recovered democracy.

Yes, there were some freedom-loving and courageous Italians. No intent to slight them.

Wonder how many of them are in the anti-war rallies today?

That means we have the
right to express our opinions, even when these can disturb our
govenrment, and the US government too.

Certainly everyone is entitled to express their opinion, ...you were reading mine. (I think you DID get to go-first, no?)

Also, there is an old man from Poland here in Rome, who strongly > disagrees with the US position on > war to Iraq. He isn't a freak! Please > remember he alone made much more for causing the final > > collapse of > the Soviet power than any Star Shield planned by the R. Reagan > administration

Pardon my mis-understanding your reference.
Perhaps you might have been specific the first time ;-)

Once again, I refer to an individual, Karol Woitila, who fighted
against the Nazis in Poland, and then had a decisive role in
getting Poland, and then the whole east-Europe, including Russia,
free from the ugly Soviet rule. The shameful behaviour of the Pope,
many Roman Catholic bishops, and also of a number of
representatives of the Protestant Churches in Germany before,
during, and also after WWII is indeed another matter.

Keep in mind that there are a whole bunch of Americans who may or
may-not care for any given president, Reagan, Bush, or otherwise,
...but these are the ones who will still come and die to free
your's or any other country that our human-and-sometimes-wrong but
at-least-chosen-and-influenced-by-the-people leaders decide we
should go to.

I believed that in a democracy people are the Sovereign, and have
the ultimate decision (or this happens only in Switzerland?)

Unfortunately our nation (USA)is in a state of change, ...many of us believe for-the-worse, ..with power grabbing under-the-guise-of-neccessity the new name of the game. Many of us will be fighting this.

When is the last time that Italy OR India sent any sort of aid to
the US(unless you count thousands of immigrants who come here for a
better life -- high tech computer workers, anyone?)

Speaking of India in particular, the best school in the country
loses their best and brightest grads to the US. (They choose the
brightest by asking "Everybody raise their hand, who wants to go to
the US!")

I know very well - I had a very brilliant Indian engineer working
with me in an Italian company during 4 years - then he got a better
salary from a US based company, and flied to the USA.

And some probably-not-a-rocket-scientist "good boy" truck-driver
doesn't like us?

That does not mean the brilliant Indians scientists and engineers
working and living in the USA shall approve the decisions of the US
government or share the opinions of the majority there. Isn't this
the true meaning of freedom

Oh yes. But if the opinion they don't-share is the one that says the US should stay more like the US than like say India, Italy, mexico, Laos, or Cuba, ... we have a problem. A bunch of separate states is nothing new (rest of the world, anyone.?) US stands for UNITED states, ...an important distinction.

Now if only all who come to America were coming to become American(In the broad sense that the founders intended) ...not simply as opportunists bringing their countries with them. Better they should stay home, than that.

A soup can only be watered-down so much and still be soup. After that it's just water.

There's water all over the planet. I still think there's something special about this soup.

If anyone disagrees, ...why all the interest in getting here in the first place?

Anyone who agrees, and comes here LEGALLY, is welcome by me.

I repeat, the problem is consensus. US can defeat Saddam by
themselves, but only world wide consensus could put an end to
international terrorism, as it happened for struggle to piracy in
the XIX century. And now, neither the majority of people within the
NATO countries is supporting you.

Are you suggesting that there is Not a consensus against International terrorism, among civilized nations?

There will always be differences in approach, in courage, and in ability.
Un-ending debate re.when, how, etc. equates to paralysis.

Why is obvious.

Whether should get a "yes".

Where will be the most immediate perceived threat.

When will always be when an able courageous party says NOW!

When that happens, the debate is over, ... get aboard, or get left-out.

Sounds right to me!

Larry

 

[Bill Brosen]

Here are some Digital Photos some may appreciate!!!!

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_021803/content/from.guest.html

Fuji S602z
Kenko 3x Teleconverter
FL-Mx29 External Auto Flash
http://www.pbase.com/wbrosen/photoart

 

[Peter Marina]

Jarrell,

out of curiosety, can you tell me how the focus got shifted from Afghanistan to Irak and Sadam? Why is everyone so obsessed with him? I am not saying we should ignore the problem, but why the sudden rush to do something immediately? The crazy SOB (sadam) had nothing to do with 911.

I think something needs to be done about this lunatic but not at the price of Iraky lifes or alied forces. Perhaps if there is no real rush, a more diplomatic and patient solution would be feasable. War will only lead to destabilising the region, killing iraky citizens, killing allied forces and perhaps undermining the UN. I truly think the UN promotes everyone's interests not just one nation's. Shouldnt we take everyone's interests in considerations?

Peter Marina

My original post was really to Jim about his view on Anti War rallies.

As to your comment...I am more concerned about 'trigger happy'
Bush, Blair and Howard at this very moment. I strongly believe that
bombing Iraq will not have any effect on stopping terrorism or the
production of weapons of mass destruction. In fact I believe it
will have totally the opposite effect by destabilising the Middle
East far more than it is at present.

p.s. Hopefully, no matter what happens that we can all continue to
enjoy our other passion, photography!

Cheers,

Rob
5700 Gallery http://www.edgestudio.com.au/5700/5700.html
website: http://www.edgestudio.com.au

Does that mean that the 'Anti Vietnam War' demonstrations had no
bearing on bringing an end to that war?

I still believe there must be another way than to attack Iraq. Even
if it takes years. Lets all take our finger off the trigger.

Cheers,

Rob
5700 Gallery http://www.edgestudio.com.au/5700/5700.html
website: http://www.edgestudio.com.au

I agree with someone who posted on another thread, that all of
these anti-war demonstrators think they're gonna stop this war,
when truth be known it's my opinion their protests will make it
more likely there will be a war.
God Bless,
Jim
CP995, CP800
http://www.pbase.com/jrj02

--
All pictures made with my right pointy finger.
How to Prepare and embed pictures here!
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1007&message=4033727
Owner and user of 990 and 5700 and Photoshop. When looking at my
pictures, never take it for granted I didn't enhance them....

--
All pictures made with my right pointy finger.
How to Prepare and embed pictures here!
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1007&message=4033727
Owner and user of 990 and 5700 and Photoshop. When looking at my
pictures, never take it for granted I didn't enhance them....

--
Peter Marina

'...I sometimes try to help the humans...' Cosmo Kramer.

 

[Peter Marina]

Wisey, let me ask you something about that Anthrax. Who supplied it to the IRAK? What will be done so that they never supplie it to them or any other dictator?

Peter Marina

Does that mean that the 'Anti Vietnam War' demonstrations had no
bearing on bringing an end to that war?

I still believe there must be another way than to attack Iraq. Even
if it takes years. Lets all take our finger off the trigger.

Cheers,

Rob
5700 Gallery http://www.edgestudio.com.au/5700/5700.html
website: http://www.edgestudio.com.au

I agree with someone who posted on another thread, that all of
these anti-war demonstrators think they're gonna stop this war,
when truth be known it's my opinion their protests will make it
more likely there will be a war.
God Bless,
Jim
CP995, CP800
http://www.pbase.com/jrj02

--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain

--
Peter Marina

'...I sometimes try to help the humans...' Cosmo Kramer.

 

[Peter Marina]

David, it's not American Bashing. Dont be paranoid, it's just anti-war protests. Also please tell me what abuses Sadam pepetrated on humanity lately? I realy think the US goverment fooled some of the US public in linking 911 and Irak when they have nothing to do with each other. What Irak does have is a big share of the petrolium reserves, that cant be unapealing to the US governement...

Peter Marina

I find it highly ironic that the war protesters have apparently not
taken the time to look away from American bashing and take a look
of all the abuses pepetrated on humanity by a despot that had his
own sons-in-law executed for their dissension as one example.
Perhaps the retoric is unidirectional.

David

--
Peter Marina

'...I sometimes try to help the humans...' Cosmo Kramer.

 

[JimTanCanada]

I've seen a lot of pictures, posted for purely non-political
reasons...only for photographic content.

Well, that is great.....Would someone please post some of the
photos from the recent anti-Saddam rallies held in Baghdad.
--
bud guinn
sony.nikon
http://www.pbase.com/budguinn/root
DPReview, PBase supporter

--
Jim Tan