Santa Barbara (CA) Peace March

[Thomas Gardner]

Now lets see here... first of all i just want to remind you about
the fact that if USA would have with the help of UN marched into
Korea it probably would be alot more united nowadays, it would
probably be one big "commie-country", but thats just speculations.

I haven't a clue what you're trying to alude to here as we went all the way to the Yallow River in the North of Korea and lost some fifty-seven thousand lives in Korea.

Other then that i cant see how the starvation in Northern Korea is
related to anything of this? I mean i was pointing out what usa
have done so "rightelously" as allways.

The point, people like to pile on the USofA but leave out the really, really important stuff that matters. As in North Korea, the deaths of over two million citizens as Kim pursues nuclear proliferation over the health and wealfare of the good citizens of North Korea. The relationship is the lack of condemnation of dictators around the world and the willingness to condemn the most generous nation the world has EVER seen.

Same goes for the hate of
the jewish, there is not one big country that has a antisemitistic
government nowadays as far as i know, so no you cant justify your
point with a few hundred thousand backbone idiots around the world,
who clearly seem to have some kind of mental issues.

Aaaah, you better check out the "BIG" countries of the Middle East and how over a billion folks reside in that geographical location of the globe.

Hate of women in saudi-arabia? its their culture for gods sake!

And so was slavery. Just because it's a cultural thing is not a reason to be quiet, it's an excellent reason to speak up. Why? Because women are being abused and it's wrong. See how you think. It's okay. Why? It's a cultural thing.

And
its really an question about point of view, many saudi-arabian
women consider themself free enough. And as far as i know, the
attitudes are changing, very slow though, but notthing like this
can be changed in a night, and still, its their culture, sometimes
when i see stupid photosig photographs with women in makeup and
latex pants i wonder if the women in the western civilisation are
any less exploited .

The difference, the Western gals choose to be exploited, the Middle East gals don't have a choice. Gee, freedom for the Western gals, the heck with gals of the Middle East.

Yepper, the USA is the bad guy as the rest of the world does
absolutely nothing.

Oooooh.... right, so because we do not stirr our fingers into
everything that really is none of our business we should be ashamed
of ourselves?

Yepper, not a single line of condemnation of Dictators or hateful behavior. Just more rhetoric about how the US shouldn't be there as they come over here to blow us up. Remember their mantra..... "Death to ALL Jews and Americans". Scuse me if I believe them and want to take them out first.

What say you oh quiet one? Where's your outrage towards what's
going on in the world besides your distain for the USofA?

Theres alot of problems in this would, but this thread is not about
them, nor would i be able to fit them all onto dpreviews server.

And that's a good reason to stay quiet. Believe it or not, this thread is about the world, not just the USofA.

Do you have complaints about WarLords in Samalia. The treatment of
whites in Africa. How about the slavery in the Sudan. What say
you about the black on black crime in Soweto, South Africa and
Oakland, California, USA? Why don't you decry the enslavement of
the people in China? How about comments about how Pakistan and
India are constantly at each other's throats? What about the
English and Irish. How about the corruption of Mexico. Anything
to say about the economy of Argentine?

Yes i would have plenty to say about it but i still refer to my
last point.

That's because you don't want to say anything about dictators. Please, your silence of convenience is defening.

How about commenting about
how Arafat won't settle it down after getting ninty-eight percent
of what he wanted in the UN accords. Have you commented about how
the Arab nations have attacked Isreal, not once but three times in
an attempt to "EXTERMINATE" those of Jewish faith? Where's your
outrage of the homicide bombers that blow up discos in Bali and

btw. i cant really see as if the jewish people would be totally
innoncent in the israel question, i personally have no direct
oppinion, but you usually need two parts for a fight. ps. im not an
arab nor an jew nor do i have anything against neither religions.

And sometimes a fight is one sided. The Arabs don't want Israel to exist. They've made this point clear in their failed attempts to eliminate Israel not once but three times in fifty some years.

 

[Thomas Gardner]

Silence is all I read.

It's almost impossible to list all the suffering and turmoil that's
going on about the world but at least I try.... or is the truth,
you hate the US and that's your sole focus.

Actually i dont hate the USA, i just hate some of the new attitudes
that have been growing in the USA lately.

But you won't condemn others, only the USA. Okay.

And you are very right in what you say about it being impossible to
list all problems of the world, but as i said earlyert THIS THREAD
IS ABOUT THE WAR BETWEEN THE USA AND IRAQ , and justifying it.

So, I guess, because I don't fit your mold, my conversation is OT? Sorry, but my comments are OT. How, because as an American, I'm painfully aware of how people like you like to pile on as a matter of convenience and fail to make note of the "REAL" problems that are confronting the worlds leaders today and yet people like you only want to focus on the USA.

Where's your fair and balanced thought?

I await your condemnation of all ditators around the world and the
mass starvation and enslavement of the citizens at the hands of
these dictators.

I also await your printed solutions on how to deal with these despots.

Shoot them all! It's really not that hard to figure out. And your solution is?

i once again refer to a point made earlyer, but yes my post was
really to popint out that having someone barg into conflicts to get
their own rights with false pretences of justice is really not fair
whetever its the USA, France, Russia or your neighbor.

Nobody is barging in. This has all been debated on the floor of the House, the Senate, the floor of the UN. This has taken place over a years time. It's not some ill thought out, shoot from the hip, cowboy, drugstore shootout. Dictators don't deserve justice. Why? Because their crimes against humanity and their own people are so great and the numbers they have killed through torture and otherwise precludes such acts of civility.

THIS thread is about the conflict between the USA and Iraq, and i
was solel y pointing out similar cases to this one that the USA has
been part of earlyer.

And how life is one sided against the USA. I know, please don't bring fair and balanced to the converstation. Please let me rag on the USA unabated and be sure to ignore the real problems facing the world community.

Oh and as last
Thank you for your comments, discussion is allways good.

Only if it will do good.

 

[Thomas Gardner]

The truth means nothing to these people. Just hate. Here's an
example. Saddam invades and rapes Kuwait for their oil. We go in
and kick the living sh*t out of him because we can't have dictators
around the world taking over countries for their oil. Then they say
we went to war for the oil. No saddam went to war and invaded
Kuwait for the oil not us. We had to save the world again by
kicking him out and we are the bad guys. These same mindless morons
would burst our ear drums with the screams to save them at the
first sign of trouble and we are the bad guy. Yes, we carry the
worlds largest stick, and thank God it is us, imagine if Saddam
carried the worlds largest stick. Do I hears screams.

The cry's you read are the cry's of spoiled children that have become spoiled because of the generosity of the USA. Let's face it, if we wanted to take over the world and destroy any and all that stand before us, we could.

We don't want to take over the world. We just want to be left alone but people in Europe, Middle East and Asia, keep dragging us back. Why? Because they can't hack it on their own and they're not mature enough to admit they need daddy's help. Just like a spoiled child.

 

[johnd1]

You seem to be making the quite valid point that "covering"
an event does not NECCESSARILY imply a point of view...
and that such coverage can be interesting, even if one disagrees
with what is going on.

That said, I wonder how many of the folks in that demonstration
have considered the fact that they make war and casualties--
on both sides--MORE likely. Their actions diminish the likelihood
that the other side will seriously negotiate an alternative to war,
by creating the impression that our side has major dissent, lacks
resolve, and will ultimately collapse (a la Vietnam). In addition
to that, the demonstrators are handing propaganda footage
to our prospective adversaries that they can use to our serious
disadvantage.

Said demonstrators could exercise their rights of dissent without
either of these major disadvantages, by privately communicating
their beliefs--hopefully supported by some kind of plausible logic--
to their elected representatives. But it appears they are more
interested in "showboating," never mind the harm to our nation.

Personally, I would be more interested in ONE shot of a patriotic
American doing something useful than in 10,000 shots of those
participating in these "peace" marches.

I don't like the sentiment here any more than Cheryl Crow's comment
"avoid war by making less enemies..." but I think the attack on the
shots is overstated. It's an evocative view of the tension in our
society. The phalanx of the easily offended command a lot of
attention in our society, and there they are. I like the shots.

Michael

 

[Thomas Gardner]

If there are Playboy playmates on that bandwagon, I’m on it.
I don't hate America. I can separate the people of the US and it’s
culture from the policies of the gov't.

What you don't see, these are the policies of the citizens of the USA. We vote these people in to reflect our values. We think this way. We want Suddam destroyed. So you can't seperate the people from the politics.

It's not a broad statement, it's a very narrow, specific statement.
My how you ignore history and how the nuclear proliferation came
about.

There are so many aspects to America. You may see one America, I
don't, especially when you throw in the rest of the Americas.

So as an American, I don't see the diversity of America. Oh that's choice.

And you also have a responsibility to decry all anti-human behavior
not just one that has a popular chord to it.

I have, you just hear what you want to hear.

So far, I've not read a clear cut condemnation. I read dribble about parents and children but no clear cut condemnation without reservations.

What is going on between the US and Iraq is small potatos compared
to the mass starvation and diseased death, by the millions, each
year in Africa.

I am all for sending these troops armed with medicine and food and
shovels (for water). No politcal agenda.

Gee, but do you think there's a chance the politics will get in the way. You have to deal with politics first. Why? Dictators don't care about the people. You don't seem to have figured this out yet.

I am for cutting the military budget and spending it on AIDS,
Social Security, food education. I have mentioned some of this
before, again you see what you want to see.

The amount that's spent on the military, in proportion to the national budget is reasonable. Now, where's the commitment of Africa to their AIDs problem and we send billions over there to help them?

No, you have had you eyes and mind distracted away from the real
tragedies that exist on this Earth thanks to the quiet of the Left.

Blame the left, whoever they are.

It's very well known who the left are. In the USA, they're not a nonexisting entity. Just like the rest of the political spectrum.

No one else’s fault of course. It
can’t be these corporations that enslave people and destroy the
environment.

Aaaah, name one US corporation that's enslaving anybody.

No, it’s the “left”. Great logic. Tell the kids that

are making our shoes and clothes, “Don’t blame Nike, Blame the
left.”.

Aaaaah, blame the govenment of the countries that have such lousy economic conditions that require children to help the family fiscally. There's no enslavement and if Nike bailed, their economy would go in the toilet. How thoughtful and insightful of you.

You bring up Nike. Is Nike cutting off people's heads or starving the citizens to death as the dictators are. You're avoiding dealing directly with my question as you try to run away from the truth that you won't directly condemn dictators and the death and harm they cause on a daily basis to innocent citizens.

And tens of millions in the US are supporting of these policies.

Great marketing effort. Remember the pet rock. Britney Spears is
popular too (mmm).

You made the comment about those that support your view and I came back with a response and now you're running to Britney Spears for cover. It's called avoidency behavior or distracting reasoning. You're not an enigma.

And so you don't condemn the Dictator but you condemn the parent.
Yes you do need to spell it out more.

Firstly - I say, it just, not in your words.

Let's read your condemnation, directly of all dictators, void of BS about parents being at fault and children being at fault for not correcting themselves.

Secondly - It’s a “duh”. Just like condemning child pornography.
For some reason need it spelled out.

Yes it does. It needs to be brought to the light of day just like the child molesting priests of the Catholic faith need to be brought to justice.

How unfeeling of you.

You still don't know me or hear me.

I know you and I hear you. It's just that you like to wisper so you won't have to declare aloud.

Say it loud and be proud.

Death to all dictators!!!!!!!!

 

[Marc Brackhahn]

The truth means nothing to these people. Just hate. Here's an
example. Saddam invades and rapes Kuwait for their oil. We go in
and kick the living sh*t out of him because we can't have dictators
around the world taking over countries for their oil. Then they say
we went to war for the oil. No saddam went to war and invaded
Kuwait for the oil not us. We had to save the world again by
kicking him out and we are the bad guys. These same mindless morons
would burst our ear drums with the screams to save them at the
first sign of trouble and we are the bad guy. Yes, we carry the
worlds largest stick, and thank God it is us, imagine if Saddam
carried the worlds largest stick. Do I hears screams.

The cry's you read are the cry's of spoiled children that have
become spoiled because of the generosity of the USA. Let's face
it, if we wanted to take over the world and destroy any and all
that stand before us, we could.

We don't want to take over the world. We just want to be left
alone but people in Europe, Middle East and Asia, keep dragging us
back. Why? Because they can't hack it on their own and they're
not mature enough to admit they need daddy's help. Just like a
spoiled child.

Yes, we have to police the world because the world cannot police itself. Again I can hear the piercing screams for Daddy at the first sign of trouble!

And yes this great nation, the most generous nation in the history of world could indeed kick the sh*t out of anyone in our way, but we don't. And we don't because we are peace loving and tolerant untill some savage wants to kill our families and makes it US OR THEM!!!! I would hate to be THEM!!

--

D60, G2, Elan 7E QD, Rebel 2000, 24-70L, 70-200L IS, 100-400L IS, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f/1.8, 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro, 135mm f/2, 200mm f/2.8 USM, 1-550EX, 2-420EXs, MT-24EX, Bogen Tri-pod w/head, Bogen monopod and the usual filters, cable releases and accessories.

 

[David Lawson]

I shot the peace march in Santa Barbara if anyone is interested.
http://www.pbase.com/billtoo/sbpeacerally



--
billtoo
D30
http://www.pbase.com/billtoo

 

[Gillis Danielsen]

I haven't a clue what you're trying to alude to here as we went all
the way to the Yallow River in the North of Korea and lost some
fifty-seven thousand lives in Korea.

as in vietnam where there was 6 million casualitys of wich 90% were civilians and "only" approx. 50 000 american, seems like a fair deal? why did you attack vietnam and korea? to stop communism! and during the attack of vietnam you also attacked kambodja for supporting vietnam, and after braking their infrastructure pol pot got into power and killed over a million people during hes regime. y personal oppinion is that henry kissinger should be sent to the haag, although usa has not yet agreed with the haag...

The point, people like to pile on the USofA but leave out the
really, really important stuff that matters. As in North Korea,
the deaths of over two million citizens as Kim pursues nuclear
proliferation over the health and wealfare of the good citizens of
North Korea. The relationship is the lack of condemnation of
dictators around the world and the willingness to condemn the most
generous nation the world has EVER seen.

Well yes north-korea is a country that still is left in the cold-war, but i really cant see how that fact justifyes any of the actions taken by the USA, i really do not support NK in any way, actuallyi would see stabilizing north-korea more important then iraq, but hey nort korea doesent have that much oil so lets forget that.

Aaaah, you better check out the "BIG" countries of the Middle East
and how over a billion folks reside in that geographical location
of the globe.

Well its pretty much the same thing as teh hate against arabs in israel, and after the WTC in the USA.

And so was slavery. Just because it's a cultural thing is not a
reason to be quiet, it's an excellent reason to speak up. Why?
Because women are being abused and it's wrong. See how you think.
It's okay. Why? It's a cultural thing.

i did not say that, lets go back in time, how long did it take for slavery to stop? yes it went pretty fast, a few hundreds of years... (and still the black people are not equal with the white in most western countrys)

And
its really an question about point of view, many saudi-arabian
women consider themself free enough. And as far as i know, the
attitudes are changing, very slow though, but notthing like this
can be changed in a night, and still, its their culture, sometimes
when i see stupid photosig photographs with women in makeup and
latex pants i wonder if the women in the western civilisation are
any less exploited .

The difference, the Western gals choose to be exploited, the Middle
East gals don't have a choice. Gee, freedom for the Western gals,
the heck with gals of the Middle East.

I think its (roughly) the same thing, i mean western girls are not directly put under a knife to do anything, but i sure as hell doubt that we would have so much anorexia etc.etc. in the western world without the dominant male, i mean ask a middle-east women what tehy think about the system and most will say they think is fair, i know i cant compare these directly, but they think we are wrong, who is to say whats right? i personally would love to see equality between the two genders, but we cant force it, it has to change, but it might take some time. but yes you are right, the women are stil lexploited in the middle-east, but it is slowly changed (as far as i know), give it a hundred years and i think we have a bit better situation.

Yepper, not a single line of condemnation of Dictators or hateful
behavior. Just more rhetoric about how the US shouldn't be there
as they come over here to blow us up. Remember their mantra.....
"Death to ALL Jews and Americans". Scuse me if I believe them and
want to take them out first.

im sure youre all for capitol punishment too? and, they must have a reason for that dont they? they cant jsut "come up with it", for instance usa bombing poor countrys to make tehm even poorer probably doesent help? there probably still has been one dead american per 100 dead arabs, but yes its a conflict as allways, but why not try to be even a tiny bit diplomatic? what should we do? nuke' emup? im sure that is going to make those who survive the nukes really friendly against the usa, you cant force a mind to change, you can only bend it diplomatically.

And that's a good reason to stay quiet. Believe it or not, this
thread is about the world, not just the USofA.

no it is not...

 

[Gillis Danielsen]

That's because you don't want to say anything about dictators.
Please, your silence of convenience is defening.

I would love to buy you a coffee and have a long discussion o nthe matther, but i guess some geographical circumstances prohibit that...

and have i said im not condemning dictators? no i havent, but PLEASE tell me how should we deal with a country where tehre is 50 million brainwashed people who will do anything for their dictator, isnt killing them all a bit harsh? well what if we kill the dictator? well tehn theres 100 more in que. well what if we overtake teh country and set in our own guy in charge? well do you think those 50 million minds will change in a day?

How about commenting about
how Arafat won't settle it down after getting ninty-eight percent
of what he wanted in the UN accords. Have you commented about how
the Arab nations have attacked Isreal, not once but three times in
an attempt to "EXTERMINATE" those of Jewish faith? Where's your
outrage of the homicide bombers that blow up discos in Bali and

btw. i cant really see as if the jewish people would be totally
innoncent in the israel question, i personally have no direct
oppinion, but you usually need two parts for a fight. ps. im not an
arab nor an jew nor do i have anything against neither religions.

And sometimes a fight is one sided. The Arabs don't want Israel to
exist. They've made this point clear in their failed attempts to
eliminate Israel not once but three times in fifty some years.

and im sure israel has been sitting there doing notthing? i still keep saying tehre is allways two parts needed for a fight, one could dig roots for the conflict back thousands of years! it cant be resolved in a day, but one thing is for certain, violence only generates more violence... And i really think arafat really cant agree on "just" 98% of what he asked, because i dont think he has hes people in 100% control.

even though its an infinite race only the diplomatic way will work.

btw. israel really is pretty much a "made" nation for teh jews after WWII, you allways get probalems when you try to build up a country, as in australia where most countrys have been built up by drawing borders with a pen on a map, i doubt there would be such problems in africa without the western imperialism.

As i said earlyer, my point is here to state the obvious, you cant resolve problems with violence, it will not work and never has.

 

[Thomas Gardner]

All they are saying is give peace a chance.

And if you haven't figured it out yet, we gave peace a chance and it didn't work.

Now it's time to see what happens when we give war, "American Style" a chance.

Let me give you a clue. About a month of command and control intervention of laser guided bombs.

After which about four days to four weeks of on the ground fighting.

Results: Suddam is either in another country with his stolen billions or hopefully dead. The people of Iraq, they'll be in the streets cheering that they've been freed from the embrace of a madman just like it was in France after France was liberated from Germany.

We'll set up a constitutional government and real elections will be allowed to take place where there's really a choice.

Notice the election that just went off in Cuba. The rules? Not electioneering and no opposing candidates.

After many years, Iraq will have learned how to rule itself without need a corrupt dictatorship and peace will breakout throughout the region.

That's my take.

 

[Gillis Danielsen]

okay i also wrote a long story for this but i got a page not found, so i really dont want to write it all over.

But i cant see how you see killing millions of people fair because a few thousand americans have died, arent humans all worth the same? if tehy have been manipulated to think america is bad, shouldnt we diplomatically change that? and if america has been terrorising tehm for a long time by bombing them and setting trade sanctions, dont you think they have something to rave about?

This is what i mean with bad attitudes in the modern USA, it starts to look more and more like the old natzi-germany, even though its a new set of "teams".

And yes, there are alot of problems in the world, but arent these problems also worth looking into?

call me naive but i still think violence does never solve violence, kill a million and youll still have a billion who are even more angry then before!

 

[PCos]

Last time I checked this Forum was supposed to be about wonderful things like cameras, photographic equipment, technique, and - oh yeah - images.

If you want to spout right-wing conservative politics, there are many forums for you to do that on the Web. Go there.

If you want to spout left-wing liberal politics, there are many forums for you to do that on the Web. Go There.

I'm not really interested in your telling the rest of the world how things should be (from the left or the right) - that's not why I come to this forum - and I imagine there are many who would agree with me.

If you want to discuss photography and images - this is the place!

I shot the peace march in Santa Barbara if anyone is interested.
http://www.pbase.com/billtoo/sbpeacerally



--
billtoo
D30
http://www.pbase.com/billtoo

--
PCos
'He who has the best Toys, wins.'

 

[Marc Brackhahn]

Give peace a chance huh!! We did untill 9/11! Now it is us or them!
--

D60, G2, Elan 7E QD, Rebel 2000, 24-70L, 70-200L IS, 100-400L IS, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f/1.8, 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro, 135mm f/2, 200mm f/2.8 USM, 1-550EX, 2-420EXs, MT-24EX, Bogen Tri-pod w/head, Bogen monopod and the usual filters, cable releases and accessories.

 

[Marc Brackhahn]

And I guess someone put a gun to your head and made you click on this thread.
--

D60, G2, Elan 7E QD, Rebel 2000, 24-70L, 70-200L IS, 100-400L IS, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f/1.8, 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro, 135mm f/2, 200mm f/2.8 USM, 1-550EX, 2-420EXs, MT-24EX, Bogen Tri-pod w/head, Bogen monopod and the usual filters, cable releases and accessories.

 

[Thomas Gardner]

okay i also wrote a long story for this but i got a page not found,
so i really dont want to write it all over.

Ticks me off when that happens. The best you can do is copy to memory, before you hit the post button so if it chokes on you, you just copy it back onto the page

But i cant see how you see killing millions of people fair because
a few thousand americans have died, arent humans all worth the
same?

Not when it's my family. No! But as to your millions, where do you get that baloney. You really think that millions are going to die?

if tehy have been manipulated to think america is bad,
shouldnt we diplomatically change that? and if america has been
terrorising tehm for a long time by bombing them and setting trade
sanctions, dont you think they have something to rave about?

Suddam has brought the bombing on himself by requiring the missile sites to fire. Nobody else is responsible. We're not terrorists. We're not strapping on bombs or hyjacking planes to blow up innocents. Trade sactions were set by UN resolutions, not by the USA.

They have a lot to rave about and it's the treatment that Suddam has metted out. The citizens are victims of a dictator. They're pawns the dictator is using because he kills all those that oppose him. They don't have a choice in the matter. I have no ill will against those in Iraq, Iran a tad bit because it was the students that took over the embassy in Tehran. The protestors of Europe, I have no use for. But the people of Iraq, I have no ill will and my sypathies lie with those that will be harmed because of Saddams lack of caring. Funny, I bet that's not what you'd expect.

This is what i mean with bad attitudes in the modern USA, it starts
to look more and more like the old natzi-germany, even though its a
new set of "teams".

It's not even close to what was happening in Germany in the thirties. And to draw even the slightest comparison is to show blindness. Where's the burning of book stores. Where's the gettos of Arabs/Muslims (don't count camp Kilo as those were active participants). Arabs can still come and go. They can still drive around without need to check in. They can go to stores, buy property, worship, go to school and walk down the streets. No there's no compairison and you do the US a great injustice by trying to carry this image forward when there's no real world examples to back the inuendo up, other then anti-USA rehtoric and hate.

And yes, there are alot of problems in the world, but arent these
problems also worth looking into?

call me naive but i still think violence does never solve violence,
kill a million and youll still have a billion who are even more
angry then before!

Nobody is killing a million. I bet that Suddam hops on his horse just about the time the first bomb falls this time.

Violence has solved problems around the world on a regular basis. It's the only thing that dictators understand and yes the defeseless citizens get caught in the crossfire. That's why we got involved in Bosnia. Why? Because of scenes on the evening news of women and children being killed by uncaring snipers.

Well Europe stood by, the cry went out and the US got involved. Well a couple of months later, the job was done.

That's the US, get out of our way, we'll get the job done. Keep your politics, let us do our job.

We can do!

 

[El_Hombre]

Death to all dictators!!!!!!!!

And those that support them.

They don't grow in a vacuum, but let's not look at the bigger picture of who has funded them and why? You might end up crying not only for the victums but also for the dictators accomplices.

 

[Dave Deacon]

What about the other 'terrorist' states like N Korea, China etc? The Arab states ruled by Kings and so on? Are we going after them too? I get the strong feeling that this is about oil under the guise of terrorism. Bush baby did afterall not so much get elected as take power - right wing coup. Such people as history shows tend to be warlike. Bush will want to 'win' an election next time to legitimise himself... Bush has had no real success in Afghanistan - Bin Lad still at large. He needs a body and terrorists are hard to pinpoint. He knows too that Saddam is not going to go or give up and that he IS into nuclear/chemical weapons - they ALL are. So he's an easy target. Then there's all that oil. Many reasons.

Make no mistake, I want this muslim extremist threat gone and if we do not DO something to stop it, then 9/11 wil be chicken feed. These are 100% certifiable nutters who are on a crusade. Reason plays no part. But that does not seem to be the issue with Iraq. People are confusing the two.

Why did America not take Saddam when they had the chance? What politics were played then? Keep the region unstable for oil's sake? America made a profit from the Gulf War... Why now they feel okay about having an unstable region? Has Bush learned from Afghanistan that he can get away with it and that Muslim brotherhood is rather thin on the ground with all these dictators many of whom are allies of the West? If so, then he's going to play even more politics for oil. This is not good. Expect more 9/11s.

I think Blair is there to try to restrain Bush. Europe is doing a two-pronged thing. Sceptical of war from the outside and Blair inside. War is NOT a simple thing. People die - horribly so... It should onle be done when all else has failed and there is no other option.

Dave

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http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=3626

 

[Thomas Gardner]

Death to all dictators!!!!!!!!

And those that support them.

One problem with that last line, you've just wiped out every govenment on the face of the earth

They don't grow in a vacuum, but let's not look at the bigger
picture of who has funded them and why? You might end up crying not
only for the victums but also for the dictators accomplices.

Being very aware of history and how alliances develop and how politics make for strange bedfellow, I might even find myself crying for you

 

[Marc Brackhahn]

okay i also wrote a long story for this but i got a page not found,
so i really dont want to write it all over.

But i cant see how you see killing millions of people fair because
a few thousand americans have died, arent humans all worth the
same? if tehy have been manipulated to think america is bad,
shouldnt we diplomatically change that? and if america has been
terrorising tehm for a long time by bombing them and setting trade
sanctions, dont you think they have something to rave about?

Are you out of your mind. Who are we bombing? Who have we been terrorizing "for a long time"? Name them! We were diplomatic untill 9/11 when they made it us or them. If it were you or them are you saying you would just say ok come and get me I'm at your mercy. The only thing you have said that is accurate TRADE SANCTIONS. Which is certainly a form of diplomacy. Or is your idea of diplomacy saying ok come and get me I am at your mercy.

This is what i mean with bad attitudes in the modern USA, it starts
to look more and more like the old natzi-germany, even though its a
new set of "teams".

Thank you for writing something so totally absurd no one will believe another thing you say!

And yes, there are alot of problems in the world, but arent these
problems also worth looking into?

Name a more important problem than muslim extremist trying to take us back into the stone age and ending civilization as we know it. Name a more important problem than terrorist trying to kill innocent men, women, and children. Name a more important problem than savages trying to blow your family to pieces because you don't have the same views as them. Have you ever thought for even a second how a dictator stays in power. Think about it for one minute. Minutes up! Pretty hideous isn't it!! You obviously don't understand that how the USA goes so goes the world. Imagine for a minute that when the WTC was destroyed our economy collapsed as well.

The worlds economy would have collapsed as well. Never thought of that did you! Imagine for a minute that the US armed forces weren't capable of beating the snot out of anyone anywhere. Nobody on earth would be safe. You didn't think of that either did you!

call me naive but i still think violence does never solve violence,
kill a million and youll still have a billion who are even more
angry then before!

You act as is the Iraqi are going to hate us for liberating them! You act as if Saddam were their chosen leader! Let me let you in on something. The Iraqi people and the world will rejoice when he and his thugs are gone. Do you think the Afghan people miss the Taliban! Are you nuts!
--

D60, G2, Elan 7E QD, Rebel 2000, 24-70L, 70-200L IS, 100-400L IS, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f/1.8, 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro, 135mm f/2, 200mm f/2.8 USM, 1-550EX, 2-420EXs, MT-24EX, Bogen Tri-pod w/head, Bogen monopod and the usual filters, cable releases and accessories.

 

[Marc Brackhahn]

What about the other 'terrorist' states like N Korea, China etc?
The Arab states ruled by Kings and so on? Are we going after them
too?

One at a time!

I get the strong feeling that this is about oil under the

guise of terrorism.

A feeling huh! A little short on facts are we!!

Bush baby did afterall not so much get elected

as take power - right wing coup.

Oh yea the Horrible Hillary Clinton right wing conspiracy! This is a republic. Maybe you are confusing it with a true democracy which is nothing more than mob rule. Which is why we have an electoral college so the candidates don't campaign in the three or so states that would rule the nation. And as far as right wing coup I'm sure you would argue that the world is flat as well!

Such people as history shows tend

to be warlike.

No it is the dictators you embrace that are war like. Except of course when they make it us or them then all we have to say is bring it on!!

Bush will want to 'win' an election next time to

legitimise himself...

It will be a land slide!

Bush has had no real success in Afghanistan -

Bush had no real success in Afghanistan! Are you nuts! No one for centuries has been able to win a war there and we beat the holy snot out of them in Forty-five days.

Bin Lad still at large.

Bin Laden for all we know is in pieces just like the poor INNOCENT victims at the WTC!

He needs a body and terrorists are hard to

pinpoint.

Yes they are, quite like roaches!!

He knows too that Saddam is not going to go or give up

and that he IS into nuclear/chemical weapons - they ALL are. So
he's an easy target.

You have made no sense here!

Then there's all that oil.

We are perfectly content buying our oil and supporting world markets. I guess you would also argue the moon is made of cheese wouldn't you!!

Many reasons.

Name them!!

Make no mistake, I want this muslim extremist threat gone and if we

do not DO something to stop it, then 9/11 wil be chicken feed.
These are 100% certifiable nutters who are on a crusade. Reason
plays no part.

Brilliantly said!!

But that does not seem to be the issue with Iraq.

It is clear that Saddam supports and encourages terrorism and is an enabling force to them.

People are confusing the two.

The people who you say are confusing the two are the people who have it right. They are not the ones confused here!!

Why did America not take Saddam when they had the chance?

Ever heard of the UN!

What politics were played then? Keep the region unstable for oil's sake?

As previously stated we are perfectly happy buying our oil and supporting the world economy. That is an absurd argument without merit. If you have proof show us!!

America made a profit from the Gulf War... Why now they feel okay
about having an unstable region?

Where and how did we make a profit! And be specific!!

Has Bush learned from Afghanistan

that he can get away with it and that Muslim brotherhood is rather
thin on the ground with all these dictators many of whom are allies
of the West? If so, then he's going to play even more politics for
oil. This is not good. Expect more 9/11s.

We believed the muslim extremist when they said they wanted to kill us. Which made it us or them. I wouldn't want to be them!!

I think Blair is there to try to restrain Bush. Europe is doing a
two-pronged thing. Sceptical of war from the outside and Blair
inside. War is NOT a simple thing. People die - horribly so... It
should onle be done when all else has failed and there is no other
option.

We gave peace a chance untill 9/11. Now it is us or them!! We are a peace loving and tolerant nation. The most generous nation in the history of the world and as generous as all the other nations on earth combined. But you failed to mention that didn't you.

--
http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=3626

--

D60, G2, Elan 7E QD, Rebel 2000, 24-70L, 70-200L IS, 100-400L IS, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f/1.8, 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro, 135mm f/2, 200mm f/2.8 USM, 1-550EX, 2-420EXs, MT-24EX, Bogen Tri-pod w/head, Bogen monopod and the usual filters, cable releases and accessories.