V1 question about the flash.

[olyflyer]

Has anyone tried to use a third party flash? I mean, I know it is not just an ordinary X shoe, but has anyone tried to crack the "secret" of how to trigger a flash with it?

It is pretty irritating that Nikon created this stupid port, which is one reason I am not interested in the NEX and is one of the reasons I held back on the V1 as well.

 

[richardday]

Has anyone tried to use a third party flash? I mean, I know it is not just an ordinary X shoe, but has anyone tried to crack the "secret" of how to trigger a flash with it?

It is pretty irritating that Nikon created this stupid port, which is one reason I am not interested in the NEX and is one of the reasons I held back on the V1 as well.

I wouldn't recommend trying to fool around with the expansion port as it could easily 'fry' something in the camera, which would be an expensive mistake!

There have been several threads about using the V1/J1 flash to trigger other flash systems, but not how to use a third party flash gun as far as I know.

I'm sure that Nikon will eventually come out with a suitable adaptor for mounting a more powerful flash (and at (for Nikon) a suitable price! ). Whether it will have any advanced features, is in the lap of the Gods!

In the meantime I use the little SB-N5 flash and it's surprisingly effective, much better than those dumb built-in things.
--
Richard Day - 'Carpe Diem!'
Gloucester UK

 

[Russell Proulx]

has anyone tried to crack the "secret" of how to trigger a flash with it?

Someone will do it sooner or later. But the electronics 'know how' that might be required is probably beyond the skills of most SB-N5 owners. Here's a detailed post of how someone 'cracked' the code for their SB-800.

http://dptnt.com/2010/04/nikon-flash-interface/

Making just a simple Hotshoe -> PC adapter will possibly require a means of telling the V1 that a flash is connected.

The first step will be to decode what each of the hotshoe pins are doing. Some power the flash, some are to trigger the flash, others are used to talk to the flash. Others are used to communicate with another accessories that shares the same interface such a the GPS unit.

I'll just have to wait for someone much brighter then me to figure it all out and be willing the share.

Meanwhile I'm just using an optical slave connected to a radio remote to trigger remote flashes.

Russell

 

[olyflyer]

Has anyone tried to use a third party flash? I mean, I know it is not just an ordinary X shoe, but has anyone tried to crack the "secret" of how to trigger a flash with it?

It is pretty irritating that Nikon created this stupid port, which is one reason I am not interested in the NEX and is one of the reasons I held back on the V1 as well.

I wouldn't recommend trying to fool around with the expansion port as it could easily 'fry' something in the camera, which would be an expensive mistake!

Yes, I am well aware of the risks if a flash is connected randomly, but there must be more than one engineers on this forum... surely I cannot be alone.

There have been several threads about using the V1/J1 flash to trigger other flash systems, but not how to use a third party flash gun as far as I know.

"Trigger other flash systems" means exactly what I am interested in.

I'm sure that Nikon will eventually come out with a suitable adaptor for mounting a more powerful flash (and at (for Nikon) a suitable price! ). Whether it will have any advanced features, is in the lap of the Gods!

There is a hot shoe adapter for the NEX to convert it into a standard shoe. I think it is pretty annoying that Nikon has not made one, even if only Auto and Manual modes would be available with third party flashes.

In the meantime I use the little SB-N5 flash and it's surprisingly effective, much better than those dumb built-in things.

The SB-N5 is a pretty weak flash and for what it does is extremely expensive. It is not even able to trigger external SB flashes, like the SB-900 I have, in iTTL mode. Yes, I can use the SU-4 mode but it is pretty primitive in 2012...

 

[olyflyer]

has anyone tried to crack the "secret" of how to trigger a flash with it?

Someone will do it sooner or later. But the electronics 'know how' that might be required is probably beyond the skills of most SB-N5 owners.

I have the electronic "know how" but don't have the camera yet, so I am collecting information.

Here's a detailed post of how someone 'cracked' the code for their SB-800.

http://dptnt.com/2010/04/nikon-flash-interface/

Thanks. My intention is not to make it TTL, I'd be happy with an old fashined solution as well.

Making just a simple Hotshoe -> PC adapter will possibly require a means of telling the V1 that a flash is connected.

No, that's not necessary. X-sync contacts are dumb contacts, just sensing that the shutter is open. At least that has always been the case with every camera I ever owned, including the Canon G10 P&S. The camera must know the existence of the flash in TTL mode because in that mode they must communicate. In Auto or Manual mode all it needs is giving a trigger pulse, if the flash is there, switched or charged is not something the camera should be concerned about.

The first step will be to decode what each of the hotshoe pins are doing. Some power the flash, some are to trigger the flash, others are used to talk to the flash. Others are used to communicate with another accessories that shares the same interface such a the GPS unit.

No, one only needs to know two terminals, the ground and the one triggering the flash (center contact on an ordinary hotshoe), assuming the triggering is done the same way as every other flash.

I'll just have to wait for someone much brighter then me to figure it all out and be willing the share.

Meanwhile I'm just using an optical slave connected to a radio remote to trigger remote flashes.

So you connect the V1 flash which triggers an optical trigger which is connected to a radio trigger which then triggers the flash? That's pretty complicated... Why not using the optical trigger to trigger directly the larger flash?

I have the SB-900 which has the SU-4 mode, so I would not need the complicated setup but I want to avoid buying the V1 flash since it is just a trigger device, something Nikon could have built into the camera just like in the J1.

 

[MattZisk]

Making just a simple Hotshoe -> PC adapter will possibly require a means of telling the V1 that a flash is connected.

No, that's not necessary. X-sync contacts are dumb contacts, just sensing that the shutter is open. At least that has always been the case with every camera I ever owned, including the Canon G10 P&S. The camera must know the existence of the flash in TTL mode because in that mode they must communicate. In Auto or Manual mode all it needs is giving a trigger pulse, if the flash is there, switched or charged is not something the camera should be concerned about.

Forgive what may be a naive quesiton, but without any indication to the camera that a flash is present, will you only be able to use the flash for fill? How (other than using the camera in manual exposure mode) will you account for the exposure adjustment required with the flash?

 

[Russell Proulx]

X-sync contacts are dumb contacts, just sensing that the shutter is open. At least that has always been the case with every camera I ever owned, including the Canon G10 P&S.

I hope you're right. Nikon has already taken the battery out of the flash and gets power from the camera's. There are 12 pins on the flash shoe. The camera's own internal menu changes when a flash is attached and only then do the menu items 'Flash mode', 'Flash Control' and 'Flash Compensation' even appear. So it is possible that the flash trigger is enabled only when a flash is present and turned on.

one only needs to know two terminals, the ground and the one triggering the flash (center contact on an ordinary hotshoe), assuming the triggering is done the same way as every other flash.

I hope you're right

So you connect the V1 flash which triggers an optical trigger which is connected to a radio trigger which then triggers the flash? That's pretty complicated... Why not using the optical trigger to trigger directly the larger flash?

In the situation where I need to use it (a job I repeat every 8-10 weeks) I need to use 2x remote flashes that cannot be reliably triggered with SU-4 mode because of where they need to be placed. I'm currently using a Pocketwizard MiniTT1 connected to the slave and it is firing 2x PW FlexTT5+sb-800's each @ 1/16 power. I can keep the SB-N5 set to 1/32 power, and the slave is tucked inside a small black bag covering flash so there's no light seen coming from the camera. Except for the SB-800's firing (Tungsten balancing filters cut their output even more) the setup is very discrete. The V1's being used @ 1600 iso, 1/60 @ about f/5.0 with the 30-110mm.

Less complicated would be a basic PC connection straight to the Pocketwizard MiniTT1 which would make the camera much smaller by eliminating both the SB-N5 and optical slave.

R

 

[Russell Proulx]

Forgive what may be a naive question, but without any indication to the camera that a flash is present, will you only be able to use the flash for fill? How (other than using the camera in manual exposure mode) will you account for the exposure adjustment required with the flash?

I would just do it manually (the old fashioned way). It's not that hard to learn to do, and with digital at least you don't have to wait for the film to come back from the lab to find out you screwed up.

R

 

[olyflyer]

Making just a simple Hotshoe -> PC adapter will possibly require a means of telling the V1 that a flash is connected.

No, that's not necessary. X-sync contacts are dumb contacts, just sensing that the shutter is open. At least that has always been the case with every camera I ever owned, including the Canon G10 P&S. The camera must know the existence of the flash in TTL mode because in that mode they must communicate. In Auto or Manual mode all it needs is giving a trigger pulse, if the flash is there, switched or charged is not something the camera should be concerned about.

Forgive what may be a naive quesiton, but without any indication to the camera that a flash is present, will you only be able to use the flash for fill? How (other than using the camera in manual exposure mode) will you account for the exposure adjustment required with the flash?

That's easy... just like I did for some 30 odd years. Yes, in manual exposure mode setting the shutter speed and the aperture manually. The flash can be in Auto mode (not TTL) or in manual mode, depending on the situation. The aperture value is calculated from the GN of the flash and the distance to the subject. Flash photography is not rocket science, pretty simple in fact but somehow people today think that images cannot be taken without TTL.

 

[olyflyer]

Forgive what may be a naive question, but without any indication to the camera that a flash is present, will you only be able to use the flash for fill? How (other than using the camera in manual exposure mode) will you account for the exposure adjustment required with the flash?

I would just do it manually (the old fashioned way). It's not that hard to learn to do, and with digital at least you don't have to wait for the film to come back from the lab to find out you screwed up.

Right. It's pretty simple and you immediately see if the image is screwed up or not, which in my case would probably not be.

 

[Billx08]

In the meantime I use the little SB-N5 flash and it's surprisingly effective, much better than those dumb built-in things.

The SB-N5 is a pretty weak flash and for what it does is extremely expensive.

It's not all that expensive, especially considering the convenience of its very small size and that users won't have to worry about carrying multiple sets of different batteries. FWIW, Canon's 270EX sells for $129, Nikon's SB-400 for $120 and the SB-N5 for $146. Not a huge difference. Yes, the flash is weaker, with a guide number slightly less than 1/2 that of the SB-400, but it has advantages too. The 270EX and the SB-400 can tilt their heads, but the SB-N5 can also rotate its head.

Since the SB-N5 shares the V1's large battery, recycle times are fairly quick, about 3 seconds when the flash is used at full power and much less most of the time for the way I shoot. At ISO 400 it can produce good exposures up to 18 feet, which I find acceptable most of the time. It might not be enough if small apertures are used or the light is bounced, but the V1 can produce good images up to ISO 1600, so again, the V1 hasn't struck out. Its relatively low output power is beneficial for its intended owners. If it was as powerful as the SB-400, recycle times could reach 7 seconds, which is slow enough for irritate its users. Since the 270EX and SB-400 use AA batteries, their recycle times are competitive only when new (alkalines as fast as 3.9 sec.), fully charged (NiMH as fast as 2.5 sec.), new (lithiums as fast as 4.2 sec) and these batteries take progressively longer to recycle as they're used until they're ready to be replaced, at which point Nikon says that they're all taking up to 30 seconds to recycle. I haven't used the SB-N5 much so I don't know its recycle time when the V1's battery is low, but I'd be surprised if it is longer than 4 or 5 seconds by the time the battery is nearly depleted.

Also, the SB-N5 also has a Capture Illuminator that can light very close subjects for up to 6 seconds in Smart Photo Selector and Motion Snapshot modes.

It is not even able to trigger external SB flashes, like the SB-900 I have, in iTTL mode. Yes, I can use the SU-4 mode but it is pretty primitive in 2012...

Does the SB-400 if used with any Nikon CLS camera, and particularly if it's used with the P7100? I assume that it can, but I've never tried that. Nice feature if it does.

 

[olyflyer]

In the meantime I use the little SB-N5 flash and it's surprisingly effective, much better than those dumb built-in things.

The SB-N5 is a pretty weak flash and for what it does is extremely expensive.

It's not all that expensive, especially considering the convenience of its very small size and that users won't have to worry about carrying multiple sets of different batteries. FWIW, Canon's 270EX sells for $129, Nikon's SB-400 for $120 and the SB-N5 for $146. Not a huge difference. Yes, the flash is weaker, with a guide number slightly less than 1/2 that of the SB-400, but it has advantages too. The 270EX and the SB-400 can tilt their heads, but the SB-N5 can also rotate its head.

Since the SB-N5 shares the V1's large battery, recycle times are fairly quick, about 3 seconds when the flash is used at full power and much less most of the time for the way I shoot. At ISO 400 it can produce good exposures up to 18 feet, which I find acceptable most of the time. It might not be enough if small apertures are used or the light is bounced, but the V1 can produce good images up to ISO 1600, so again, the V1 hasn't struck out. Its relatively low output power is beneficial for its intended owners. If it was as powerful as the SB-400, recycle times could reach 7 seconds, which is slow enough for irritate its users. Since the 270EX and SB-400 use AA batteries, their recycle times are competitive only when new (alkalines as fast as 3.9 sec.), fully charged (NiMH as fast as 2.5 sec.), new (lithiums as fast as 4.2 sec) and these batteries take progressively longer to recycle as they're used until they're ready to be replaced, at which point Nikon says that they're all taking up to 30 seconds to recycle. I haven't used the SB-N5 much so I don't know its recycle time when the V1's battery is low, but I'd be surprised if it is longer than 4 or 5 seconds by the time the battery is nearly depleted.

Also, the SB-N5 also has a Capture Illuminator that can light very close subjects for up to 6 seconds in Smart Photo Selector and Motion Snapshot modes.

I can see all the advantages you list, but I can see a whole lot of disadvantage as well. For example, in my case I'd carry a DSLR in my bag anyway, together with the SB-900. While that flash would be huge on the V1, it would save me save in the bag if Nikon would have made it compatible. I would also be happier if the SB-N5 would be able to trigger the SB-900 in iTTL mode as well, not just in manual mode, using the SU-4 mode on the larger flash. But a pop-up flash would be the best, even if it was weaker. Nikon could still have the special port and the SB-N5 for those who want it. Anyway, it would help a lot of people if there would be an adapter available, similar to what Sony is offering, or if there would be a PC contact. Not much to ask for the price... The V1 isn't exactly a cheap camera...

Anyway, if I buy the camera I’ll have to buy the flash as well, so yes, I think for what the flash does, it is pretty expensive, but there isn’t much else we can do right now.

It is not even able to trigger external SB flashes, like the SB-900 I have, in iTTL mode. Yes, I can use the SU-4 mode but it is pretty primitive in 2012...

Does the SB-400 if used with any Nikon CLS camera, and particularly if it's used with the P7100? I assume that it can, but I've never tried that. Nice feature if it does.

I don't know the SB-400, but with some limitations it has at least the iTTL part, which can be used also on the P7100. It doesn't have remote trigger or slave functions, it is pretty primitive, but it works well.

 

[Russell Proulx]

Anyway, if I buy the camera I’ll have to buy the flash as well, so yes, I think for what the flash does, it is pretty expensive, but there isn’t much else we can do right now.

I wonder if you really need the flash unless it's to trigger other lights via a slave? You already have a D3s and SB900 so the V1 would be your 'fun' camera. In 'fun mode' I rarely (never?) use a flash. Don't think I ever used the flash on the s90. I'm sure something better isn't far off if you can wait (an SU-800 type module for the V1 would be nice).

I considered other cameras before getting the V1 and am very happy with my choice. It's silent, integrates well with what I already use, and will only get better as more features are added. IMO it's certainly more '2012' than the D4 or D800. Photojournalists lament that they're being replaced by amateurs carrying cell phones. Perhaps it's because small solutions are quickly replacing dSLRs for the same reason 35mm cameras replaced the 4x5 Speed Graphic.

R

 

[olyflyer]

Anyway, if I buy the camera I’ll have to buy the flash as well, so yes, I think for what the flash does, it is pretty expensive, but there isn’t much else we can do right now.

I wonder if you really need the flash unless it's to trigger other lights via a slave? You already have a D3s and SB900 so the V1 would be your 'fun' camera. In 'fun mode' I rarely (never?) use a flash. Don't think I ever used the flash on the s90. I'm sure something better isn't far off if you can wait (an SU-800 type module for the V1 would be nice).

No, I don't have the D3s, I have the D300s and yes, I am sure I will need a flash. I'd welcome the possibility to use any of my 5 or six flashes, even if I could not use the the SB-900 in full CLS mode. But sure, if there would be an SU-4 type of adapter (3rd party or Nikon) I’d be happy.

I considered other cameras before getting the V1 and am very happy with my choice. It's silent, integrates well with what I already use, and will only get better as more features are added. IMO it's certainly more '2012' than the D4 or D800. Photojournalists lament that they're being replaced by amateurs carrying cell phones. Perhaps it's because small solutions are quickly replacing dSLRs for the same reason 35mm cameras replaced the 4x5 Speed Graphic.

The S90 is definitely not a camera for me. I already have the G10 but I am tired of the slow focus. If it was as fast as the V1 I'd not consider any other small camera right now since I am very happy with it otherwise. In any case, I will never buy a camera without VF and possibility of adding external flash, so the S90 is out of the question, just like most other compact cameras. The V1 would also have the advantage of the ability to share lenses and software (I use and am happy with CNX2 as raw developer). It is for me unbelievably stupid of Nikon not to add support of any SB flash when they are supporting the entire F-mount lens range. I just can't understand the reason for that decision. If they wanted to add this proprietary port it could have been done the Olympus way as without inventing the wheel and scrapping the standard X-shoe.