Cropping a wide angle to increase focal length?

Kenny123

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I have a question regarding cropping a wide angle. If for example a photo was taken with a 28mm lens (FF equivalent) and then the central section was cropped out, would the central section then have an increased focal length to make it the same as if it was taken with for example a 50mm lens (depending on how much was cropped)?

I know the resolution would be less but would the field of view and look of the photo be the same?
 
If you cropped so that the photo had the same FOV as a 50mm lens then yes. But you're not changing the focal length just the FOV so that it appears as if the photo was take with a lens of 50mm.
I have a question regarding cropping a wide angle. If for example a photo was taken with a 28mm lens (FF equivalent) and then the central section was cropped out, would the central section then have an increased focal length to make it the same as if it was taken with for example a 50mm lens (depending on how much was cropped)?

I know the resolution would be less but would the field of view and look of the photo be the same?
--
Bruce
 
Yes, as long as you're standing in the same place (or it'd be the same as a shot with a longer angle lens if you were standing at the same spot). I'm not sure how that changes if your crop is taken from the sides.

Here's an example with the same portion of a flower cropped from a 28mm and shot with an 80mm (both APS-C).







 
Not entirely (I hope) to be academic, but the term "cropped out" naturally suggests the part you're removing. If you "cropped out" the center of an image, you'd be left with an image that has a hole in it. Of course, nobody misinterpreted what was said, but I thought maybe I'd write this anyway so nobody else gets the itch to whack at it... :)

You can change the FOV (field of view, pretty much interchangeable with AOV or Angle of View, not sure exactly who prefers what term over the other, but I like AOV because it fits with specifying an actual number of degrees wide the view is - on the other hand as photographers we usually think in terms of 35mm film equivalency so saying "same FOV as a 800mm lens on 35mm film" is more natural) to whatever you like so long as it's smaller than the starting view. You can change that field of view to 2% diagonally (or roughly beyond a 1200mm lens equivalent) or even to any farther number, but of course you will soon be dealing with a single pixel which can't be "cropped" any further.

Okay, now for something relevant to the OP from me:

All that you can make equivalent (at least reasonably) from cropping a wide-angle lens is the FOV / AOV. There will still be many problems. You've certainly guessed that you will be dealing with fewer details because the lens isn't meant as a telephoto, but the depth of field will also not behave the same as if you'd taken the photo with a longer lens to begin with. Some idea about this can be found here:

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/#1

The next myth that page discusses, "Larger sensor systems are bulky and heavy," will also be of use to you. Basically, if you're interested in taking pictures of small or distant objects (where you need a longer than wide-angle lens) your best results come from getting a longer lens. Of course, you can't "zoom out" a telephoto image into a 180 degree panorama, so if you are constricted by carrying capacity or money to just one lens, you will be able to show context (the surroundings) much better with the wide-angle lens - a lot of bird pictures look surreal because the long telephoto perspective (and the resulting blur effects past the area in focus) strip away a lot of the context for the sake of isolating the subject.
 
All that you can make equivalent (at least reasonably) from cropping a wide-angle lens is the FOV / AOV. There will still be many problems. You've certainly guessed that you will be dealing with fewer details because the lens isn't meant as a telephoto, but the depth of field will also not behave the same as if you'd taken the photo with a longer lens to begin with.
This is incorrect. When you use a longer focal length you are essentially cropping with your camera. It is the same action that would be taking place in a traditional film enlarger. The image gets bigger and whats outside the sensor gets cropped off. No different than cropping off the edges and enlarging it on your computer, aside from the resolution loss.
The next myth that page discusses, "Larger sensor systems are bulky and heavy," will also be of use to you.
Nobody has mentioned "Larger sensor systems" untill you did.
 
I don't see where what you said differs from what Mr. Herdman said. Where was he incorrect?
All that you can make equivalent (at least reasonably) from cropping a wide-angle lens is the FOV / AOV. There will still be many problems. You've certainly guessed that you will be dealing with fewer details because the lens isn't meant as a telephoto, but the depth of field will also not behave the same as if you'd taken the photo with a longer lens to begin with.
This is incorrect. When you use a longer focal length you are essentially cropping with your camera. It is the same action that would be taking place in a traditional film enlarger. The image gets bigger and whats outside the sensor gets cropped off. No different than cropping off the edges and enlarging it on your computer, aside from the resolution loss.
The next myth that page discusses, "Larger sensor systems are bulky and heavy," will also be of use to you.
Nobody has mentioned "Larger sensor systems" untill you did.
--
Bruce
 
Thanks Bruce...also, gosh, I need to cut down my replies, by a bunch...leaving this up just for chuckles I guess. Apologize for the rough tone, Morris Sullivan, but it seems that everybody is quick to tie shoelaces together over some perceived differences on the 'net.
All that you can make equivalent (at least reasonably) from cropping a wide-angle lens is the FOV / AOV. There will still be many problems. You've certainly guessed that you will be dealing with fewer details because the lens isn't meant as a telephoto, but the depth of field will also not behave the same as if you'd taken the photo with a longer lens to begin with.
This is incorrect. When you use a longer focal length you are essentially cropping with your camera. It is the same action that would be taking place in a traditional film enlarger. The image gets bigger and whats outside the sensor gets cropped off. No different than cropping off the edges and enlarging it on your computer, aside from the resolution loss.
I don't see where you have acknowledged, let alone rebutted, any of my specific claims, which you will find to be true: 1.) Cropping an image from a wide-angle lens is not ideal, but possible, but will only change the angle of view; 2.) the actual merits of using this approach generally are less than that of shooting a longer lens; and 3.) modifying depth of field (for example) after the fact by cropping is impossible (unless you consider extensive photo retouching acceptable).

What you say about "essentially cropping with your camera" seems needlessly confusing, because 1.) the sensor is not being cropped, taking in less of the light focused at the sensor (as with a 1.6 crop sensor, which is very different from using an enlarger or a reversed lens), 2.) the image is not being cropped either, since the image is only comprised of that light focused by the lens, and 3.) in fact, NOTHING is being cropped "when you use a longer focal length," since the job of a telephoto lens (and any other) is to focus rays of light into a specific flat area! Unless, I suppose, you're talking about cropping in the sense of going out into the real world and boxing out the incoming light, which makes no sense in terms of simplifying how lenses (or croppoing) works to be easily understood (while still accurate).

The main point which should not be lost is that, whenever possible, one should use a lens suited to the task, because simply cropping away an image will not be the same. The ideas of "pixels on taret" (known to wildlife photographers) and of controlling depth of field are practical reasons why one should avoid this.

The way you appear to be using (I cannot be sure what you mean, actually) the term "cropping" here is of no use to the OP. Cropping usually refers to a couple specific, and related, ideas, and saying something like "well it's almost the same as using a telephoto lens!" is completely missing the point, like saying that "using chocolate on your hamburgers is a bit like using ketchup, because it's also food!" It completely misses the point of why you might want to do one and not the other, and is confusing besides.
The next myth that page discusses, "Larger sensor systems are bulky and heavy," will also be of use to you.
Nobody has mentioned "Larger sensor systems" untill you did.
That's mighty presumptuous of you, thinking you know the content of a page from my having copied down the section heading for the OP's reference.

On the blocked Joseph James Photography website, that section links to the concepts being discussed (I hope) here. For whatever reason the powers that be have blocked the URL. Great Bustard linked this same website to make a point that is still somewhat relevant for this thread, here:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=37923258
So while no two photos from two different systems will ever be equal, Equivalent photos from different systems will be as similar as photos from different systems will get. Clearly, however, the point of choosing one system over another is not simple to get photos as close as possible to other systems (equivalent photos), but to get photos that look "better" (in our eyes) to what other systems can deliver (non-equivalent photos), or for the differences in operation (AF speed/accuracy, size, weight, frame rate, build, price, etc.).
In other words, completely apart from the issue of whether one thing is equivalent to something else is the question of - does it make sense to do it this way (unless you absolutely have to)?

Total takeaway from this exchange: Words still have meanings, and talking about "equivalency" is too confusing, most of the time. (Including when one says "essentially" in place of "is equivalent to," as in "essentially cropping with your camera.")
 
I don't see where you have acknowledged, let alone rebutted, any of my specific claims, which you will find to be true: 1.) Cropping an image from a wide-angle lens is not ideal, but possible, but will only change the angle of view; 2.) the actual merits of using this approach generally are less than that of shooting a longer lens; and 3.) modifying depth of field (for example) after the fact by cropping is impossible (unless you consider extensive photo retouching acceptable).
1.) Angle of view AND Perspective will be the same, DOF can be the same if you compensate with a different aperture (2 stops for each doubling or halving of focal length.)
2.) Nobody asked about the merits
3.) Nobody asked about modifying depth of field after the fact.
The main point which should not be lost is that, whenever possible, one should use a lens suited to the task, because simply cropping away an image will not be the same. The ideas of "pixels on taret" (known to wildlife photographers) and of controlling depth of field are practical reasons why one should avoid this.
I don’t think the OP wasn't aware of this. He even stated that he was fully aware that the quality of the photo would be affected.
The next myth that page discusses, "Larger sensor systems are bulky and heavy," will also be of use to you.
Nobody has mentioned "Larger sensor systems" untill you did.
That's mighty presumptuous of you, thinking you know the content of a page from my having copied down the section heading for the OP's reference.
Actually when I hit the "Quote" button I was able to see the link, which I followed to an very long page discussing the merits of large sensor cameras.
So while no two photos from two different systems will ever be equal, Equivalent photos from different systems will be as similar as photos from different systems will get. Clearly, however, the point of choosing one system over another is not simple to get photos as close as possible to other systems (equivalent photos), but to get photos that look "better" (in our eyes) to what other systems can deliver (non-equivalent photos), or for the differences in operation (AF speed/accuracy, size, weight, frame rate, build, price, etc.).
In other words, completely apart from the issue of whether one thing is equivalent to something else is the question of - does it make sense to do it this way (unless you absolutely have to)?
He didn't seem to be asking if this was ideal, or even if this "made sense to do". What I gathered from his question was: will the framing and perspective be the same if I crop rather than use a longer focal length. We dont know his reason for asking unless he replies, but I think long pages of writing about equivalence and how it pertains to sensor size will possibly confuse the issue.
 
All that you can make equivalent (at least reasonably) from cropping a wide-angle lens is the FOV / AOV. There will still be many problems. You've certainly guessed that you will be dealing with fewer details because the lens isn't meant as a telephoto, but the depth of field will also not behave the same as if you'd taken the photo with a longer lens to begin with.
This is incorrect. When you use a longer focal length you are essentially cropping with your camera. It is the same action that would be taking place in a traditional film enlarger.
This is gibberish. When you use a longer focal lenght you are collect more light, you are not "enlarging" the image with your sensor. You're enlarging the image because you were able to collect eight, ten or whatever times the amount of light depending on your focal lenght.

Dave

--
"Everyone who has ever lived, has lived in Modern Times"
 
All that you can make equivalent (at least reasonably) from cropping a wide-angle lens is the FOV / AOV. There will still be many problems. You've certainly guessed that you will be dealing with fewer details because the lens isn't meant as a telephoto, but the depth of field will also not behave the same as if you'd taken the photo with a longer lens to begin with.
This is incorrect. When you use a longer focal length you are essentially cropping with your camera. It is the same action that would be taking place in a traditional film enlarger.
This is gibberish. When you use a longer focal lenght you are collect more light, you are not "enlarging" the image with your sensor. You're enlarging the image because you were able to collect eight, ten or whatever times the amount of light depending on your focal lenght. You are in fact getting "closer" to your target, not appearing closer which is what happens when you crop
These two pictures were taken at the same time and place. The first three are:

1. The scene as it appeasrs on a 28mm lens with a 1.7 cropped sensor...



2. This second is a 100 percent crop



3. The same crop interpolated up to 200 percent and then cropped again at 100 percent



Finally, the same scene at the same place and time with an 800mm lens, with only about ten percent of the image cropped away.



Dave
--
"Everyone who has ever lived, has lived in Modern Times"
 
All that you can make equivalent (at least reasonably) from cropping a wide-angle lens is the FOV / AOV. There will still be many problems. You've certainly guessed that you will be dealing with fewer details because the lens isn't meant as a telephoto, but the depth of field will also not behave the same as if you'd taken the photo with a longer lens to begin with.
True, the DOF is deeper with a shorter focal-length lens. And if you just cut off the sides of a print of the image taken with a shorter focal-length lens so all you can see is the center of the image that does nothing to the DOF. But you have a smaller print. In order to get a print the same size and the same angle of view with the shorter focal length lens you have to enlarge the cropped short focal length print, and that will make the DOF in that print exactly the same as in the longer focal length print. (Alternatively, the smaller print means you have to look at it closer up, which has the same effect).
 
enlarge the cropped short focal length print, and that will make the DOF in that print exactly the same as in the longer focal length print.
I don't understand how cropping can change a depth of field that's been captured by the camera.
It can't directly, it's the change in degree of enlargement.

"Depth of field captured by the camera" isn't a very useful concept, no matter how commonly it's used.

CoC at the final display size is what genuinely matters.
 
So you're saying that cropping a medium distance photo of a three dimensional subject into a frame-filling image of that subject reduces the in-focus area of the subject?
enlarge the cropped short focal length print, and that will make the DOF in that print exactly the same as in the longer focal length print.
I don't understand how cropping can change a depth of field that's been captured by the camera.
It can't directly, it's the change in degree of enlargement.

"Depth of field captured by the camera" isn't a very useful concept, no matter how commonly it's used.

CoC at the final display size is what genuinely matters.
 
enlarge the cropped short focal length print, and that will make the DOF in that print exactly the same as in the longer focal length print.
I don't understand how cropping can change a depth of field that's been captured by the camera.
It can't directly, it's the change in degree of enlargement.

"Depth of field captured by the camera" isn't a very useful concept, no matter how commonly it's used.

CoC at the final display size is what genuinely matters.
I'm not sure this is correct.. look at the example above in this thread with the 2 shots of the flowers posted by "nelsonal" -- both taken at the same apeture. DOF is different.. and just imagine each file is used to produce a 4x6 print?

FYI, a photo does not always need to be enlarged.. Take a photo with 22mps, crop center portion to eg. 6 mps -- still plenty of MPs to yield a 5x7 without uprezzing.. Sending a 800 ppi image to a printer at 5x7 or a 360ppi image to a printer at 5x7 won't yield terribly different results.

--
'Everything in photography boils down to what's sharp and what's fuzzy.'
-Gaylord Herron
 
FYI, a photo does not always need to be enlarged..
That depends on how you define "enlarged". In the context of DOF discussions, it is the optical enlargement which matters.
Take a photo with 22mps, crop center portion to eg. 6 mps -- still plenty of MPs to yield a 5x7 without uprezzing..
Ok, 22 MP means (I assume) a full-frame DSLR with a 24 x 36 mm sensor. Making a print at 6 x 4 inches means the image is enlarged (from sensor to print) by a factor of 150mm / 36mm = approximately 4.2x.

If the image is cropped to 6 MP, that means the sensor area used for the shot is now 12.5 x 18.8 mm. Making a 6 x 4 inch print means enlarging this by a factor of 150mm / 18.8mm which gives approximately 8x.

This greater degree of enlargement (8x instead of 4.2x) means a corresponding reduction in the size of the circle of confusion used in the DOF calculation. The end result is the depth of field is reduced when the image is cropped - providing both the original and cropped image are each used to make a print of the same size (6 x 4 inches in my example).

Regards,
Peter
 
This greater degree of enlargement (8x instead of 4.2x) means a corresponding reduction in the size of the circle of confusion used in the DOF calculation. The end result is the depth of field is reduced when the image is cropped
Does this mean that there's no fixed definition for "in focus", it's just a matter of degree of focus? If so, what would be a working definition for "in focus".

--
Ken
http://mazurk.net/nature
 
FYI, a photo does not always need to be enlarged..
That depends on how you define "enlarged". In the context of DOF discussions, it is the optical enlargement which matters.
Take a photo with 22mps, crop center portion to eg. 6 mps -- still plenty of MPs to yield a 5x7 without uprezzing..
This greater degree of enlargement (8x instead of 4.2x) means a corresponding reduction in the size of the circle of confusion used in the DOF calculation. The end result is the depth of field is reduced when the image is cropped - providing both the original and cropped image are each used to make a print of the same size (6 x 4 inches in my example).

Regards,
Peter
Which seems the opposite of what was demonstrated by Nelsonal's post above of the flowers.. the cropped image to yield save FOV as the non-cropped image, has more DOF.?

--
'Everything in photography boils down to what's sharp and what's fuzzy.'
-Gaylord Herron
 
Technically, the only thing in focus is a plane or spherical surface. Depth of field is a handy way to think of the out of focus area which has "error" that's too small to matter at the resolving power of the film/sensor or at the print size you'll make.
 
These two pictures were taken at the same time and place. The first three are:

1. The scene as it appears on a 28mm lens with a 1.7 cropped sensor...

2. This second is a 100 percent crop

3. The same crop interpolated up to 200 percent and then cropped again at 100 percent

Finally, the same scene at the same place and time with an 800mm lens, with only about ten percent of the image cropped away.
I'd say that the final picture was focused on the bird and the first three weren't.

--
Ken
http://mazurk.net/nature
 

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