Sky color comes out cyan instead of blue on S602

[Buellwinkle]

I just got my S602 and some of the time the sky comes out cyan or has some green in it and looks bad. This happens on a clear sunny day. I took the same picture at the same time with an Olympus E-10 and the sky comes out perfect.

Has anyone played with the WB settings and what's best to use, AUTO, the preset setttings or the custom settings.

 

[Timothy Dunnigan]

Hello,

I prefer to use a custom white balance with an 18% grey card, but I have used the preset balance for sunny skies and have been satisfied with the results.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

I just got my S602 and some of the time the sky comes out cyan or
has some green in it and looks bad. This happens on a clear sunny
day. I took the same picture at the same time with an Olympus E-10
and the sky comes out perfect.

Has anyone played with the WB settings and what's best to use,
AUTO, the preset setttings or the custom settings.

 

[Dominique Guerra]

Hello,

What do you mean by an 18% grey card. I am using a white paper, am I wrong ?

DoG

http://www.pbase.com/dog

I prefer to use a custom white balance with an 18% grey card, but I
have used the preset balance for sunny skies and have been
satisfied with the results.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

I just got my S602 and some of the time the sky comes out cyan or
has some green in it and looks bad. This happens on a clear sunny
day. I took the same picture at the same time with an Olympus E-10
and the sky comes out perfect.

Has anyone played with the WB settings and what's best to use,
AUTO, the preset setttings or the custom settings.

--
DoG

 

[Timothy Dunnigan]

Hello Dominique,

It is ok to use white paper, although you may obtain overexposure readings more often. Also, as another forum member pointed out to me, white paper contains minerals which may flouresce, giving tints.

I've had better results with the grey card. I obtained mine at a local camera store. They are also available online.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

What do you mean by an 18% grey card. I am using a white paper, am
I wrong ?

DoG

http://www.pbase.com/dog

I prefer to use a custom white balance with an 18% grey card, but I
have used the preset balance for sunny skies and have been
satisfied with the results.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

I just got my S602 and some of the time the sky comes out cyan or
has some green in it and looks bad. This happens on a clear sunny
day. I took the same picture at the same time with an Olympus E-10
and the sky comes out perfect.

Has anyone played with the WB settings and what's best to use,
AUTO, the preset setttings or the custom settings.

--
DoG

 

[Azrifel]

What do you mean. Do you set the white balance on a grey card or do you measure exposure on a grey card?

To my knowledge grey cards are to measure exposure (F and shutter) with any camera (analog & digital) and white cards are to set the white balance (digital only).
Check also:

http://www.dpchallenge.com/forum.asp?action=read&FORUM_POST_ID=33828&txtSearch=grey%20card

And especially this one:
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/The_Grey_Card.html

I believe that there are special cards available, one site white, other side grey.

It is ok to use white paper, although you may obtain overexposure
readings more often. Also, as another forum member pointed out to
me, white paper contains minerals which may flouresce, giving tints.

I've had better results with the grey card. I obtained mine at a
local camera store. They are also available online.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

What do you mean by an 18% grey card. I am using a white paper, am
I wrong ?

DoG

http://www.pbase.com/dog

I prefer to use a custom white balance with an 18% grey card, but I
have used the preset balance for sunny skies and have been
satisfied with the results.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

I just got my S602 and some of the time the sky comes out cyan or
has some green in it and looks bad. This happens on a clear sunny
day. I took the same picture at the same time with an Olympus E-10
and the sky comes out perfect.

Has anyone played with the WB settings and what's best to use,
AUTO, the preset setttings or the custom settings.

--
DoG

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.com
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/

 

[Richard Bolt]

I always use P(rogram) mode, so that I can use the manual "sunny" whitebalance setting with fantastic results.

For plenty of blue sky pics using this setting, see my photos at
http://www.pbase.com/ozdick/usa_trip_2002

My S602 gives me better results on Auto whitebalance though than my Sony DSC-S85 ever did - so it's a problem that most digital cameras share I guess.

Regards,
Richard

 

[Timothy Dunnigan]

Here's my earlier explanation regarding WB setting using a grey card:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=3656514

Also, read the following message from Karl, who understands and explained the potential tints of (some) white paper.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

http://www.dpchallenge.com/forum.asp?action=read&FORUM_POST_ID=33828&txtSearch=grey%20card

And especially this one:
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/The_Grey_Card.html

I believe that there are special cards available, one site white,
other side grey.

It is ok to use white paper, although you may obtain overexposure
readings more often. Also, as another forum member pointed out to
me, white paper contains minerals which may flouresce, giving tints.

I've had better results with the grey card. I obtained mine at a
local camera store. They are also available online.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

What do you mean by an 18% grey card. I am using a white paper, am
I wrong ?

DoG

http://www.pbase.com/dog

I prefer to use a custom white balance with an 18% grey card, but I
have used the preset balance for sunny skies and have been
satisfied with the results.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

I just got my S602 and some of the time the sky comes out cyan or
has some green in it and looks bad. This happens on a clear sunny
day. I took the same picture at the same time with an Olympus E-10
and the sky comes out perfect.

Has anyone played with the WB settings and what's best to use,
AUTO, the preset setttings or the custom settings.

--
DoG

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.com
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/

 

[Azrifel]

I did a test this evening, with manual whitebalance measured on an Epson matte paper heavyweight paper (pretty white) and a 18% grey card.

My conclusion still is that the whitcard will do a better job. The colors came out the way I know them, the ones from the grey card whitebalance are less acurate and I would not like to use it myself. In the last shot the auto whitebalance made a mess of it.

The sample doesn't show it all, download the pics at the link and switch between them rapidly. You will see a major difference, especially in the painting and it surroundings.

I'd like to hear what you & other people think, perhaps try it yourself. Its something I would like to get a clear 'picture' of.

http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/gallery/dp_review_white_balance_test

http://www.pbase.com/image/7921993

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.com
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

What do you mean. Do you set the white balance on a grey card or do
you measure exposure on a grey card?
To my knowledge grey cards are to measure exposure (F and shutter)
with any camera (analog & digital) and white cards are to set the
white balance (digital only).

 

[Azrifel]

 

[Jake7]

What do you mean. Do you set the white balance on a grey card or do
you measure exposure on a grey card?
To my knowledge grey cards are to measure exposure (F and shutter)
with any camera (analog & digital) and white cards are to set the
white balance (digital only).

A 'grey' card has two sides -- one sid is White, and one side is Gray.

You use the Gray side for measuring exposure; you use the White side to set the white balance.

Check also:

http://www.dpchallenge.com/forum.asp?action=read&FORUM_POST_ID=33828&txtSearch=grey%20card

And especially this one:
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/The_Grey_Card.html

I believe that there are special cards available, one site white,
other side grey.

It is ok to use white paper, although you may obtain overexposure
readings more often. Also, as another forum member pointed out to
me, white paper contains minerals which may flouresce, giving tints.

I've had better results with the grey card. I obtained mine at a
local camera store. They are also available online.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

What do you mean by an 18% grey card. I am using a white paper, am
I wrong ?

DoG

http://www.pbase.com/dog

I prefer to use a custom white balance with an 18% grey card, but I
have used the preset balance for sunny skies and have been
satisfied with the results.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

I just got my S602 and some of the time the sky comes out cyan or
has some green in it and looks bad. This happens on a clear sunny
day. I took the same picture at the same time with an Olympus E-10
and the sky comes out perfect.

Has anyone played with the WB settings and what's best to use,
AUTO, the preset setttings or the custom settings.

--
DoG

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.com
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/

 

[Jake7]

What do you mean. Do you set the white balance on a grey card or do
you measure exposure on a grey card?
To my knowledge grey cards are to measure exposure (F and shutter)
with any camera (analog & digital) and white cards are to set the
white balance (digital only).

A 'grey' card has two sides -- one sid is White, and one side is Gray.

You use the Gray side for measuring exposure; you use the White
side to set the white balance.

Slightly OT. The other use for the 'gray' side is for setting a reference in film photography if you do your own printing. The use of a standard Kodak gray card provides you with a known reference on which to set your (spot) colour analyser before dialing in the colours on the enlarger head.

You know what the gray card should look like, so you can adjust the colours until you get the combination of paper/exposure/colour settings correct. This will (should) remain constant for the rest of the film/paper batch, etc. combination, providing the colour of the light source has remained constant.

Check also:

http://www.dpchallenge.com/forum.asp?action=read&FORUM_POST_ID=33828&txtSearch=grey%20card

And especially this one:
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/The_Grey_Card.html

I believe that there are special cards available, one site white,
other side grey.

It is ok to use white paper, although you may obtain overexposure
readings more often. Also, as another forum member pointed out to
me, white paper contains minerals which may flouresce, giving tints.

I've had better results with the grey card. I obtained mine at a
local camera store. They are also available online.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

What do you mean by an 18% grey card. I am using a white paper, am
I wrong ?

DoG

http://www.pbase.com/dog

I prefer to use a custom white balance with an 18% grey card, but I
have used the preset balance for sunny skies and have been
satisfied with the results.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

I just got my S602 and some of the time the sky comes out cyan or
has some green in it and looks bad. This happens on a clear sunny
day. I took the same picture at the same time with an Olympus E-10
and the sky comes out perfect.

Has anyone played with the WB settings and what's best to use,
AUTO, the preset setttings or the custom settings.

--
DoG

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.com
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/

 

[Edward Casati]

A 'grey' card has two sides -- one sid is White, and one side is Gray.

My gray card also has two sides, a gray side if you want to set the exposure, and a printed side if you want to read the instructions on how to use the gray side. ;-)

The color accuracy will probably be much more affected by your printing loop than by the small difference between gray and white. In any case, if the color balance is that critical, you will probably have to make a small adjustment prior to printing, but that's just for extremely accurate work. You printer calibration (profiling) influences the colors much more than the small difference between a white card and a gray card.

BTW, the fuction of white balance is pretty straight forward, and that's why you can use either white or gray. A good gray card has no color... it is just a subdued tone of white, and good gray cards are expensive. The standard is Kodak. Anyway, the white balance simply looks at the card, and measures the 'chrominance' (color) channels of the image. It then subtracts whatever value it measured from your photos as you take them. The 'luminance' (brightness) channel is ignored. That's why there is little difference between white and gray, they both look similar in the 'chrominance' channel when they are both pure color.

 

[Pan Shizhu]

I suggest you NEVER use auto WB unless you can't find a good one to choose and have no "white card" to adjust manual WB preset.

For shooting the sky, the 'Sunny' WB option works, just try it and in most cases you'll get satisfied result. Or you might want to try the white card...

Sounds like I'm a paranoia who don't trust any automatic features, in most cases I'm using manual focus, manual white balance, manual exposure, so S602's poor low-light autofocus performance affects nothing to me. But the fact is in most cases the manual features give stunning better result than automatic ones.

I just got my S602 and some of the time the sky comes out cyan or
has some green in it and looks bad. This happens on a clear sunny
day. I took the same picture at the same time with an Olympus E-10
and the sky comes out perfect.

Has anyone played with the WB settings and what's best to use,
AUTO, the preset setttings or the custom settings.

 

[Timothy Dunnigan]

Hello,

Interesting test, but it makes the point that white paper is not standard and sets different tints from true white. I don't question your preference for the photo obtained by using the Epson paper or your judgment on color accuracy, but if true, then everyone using white paper should use that particular brand and model of white paper. And then it's probably only the best WB card for S602 cameras.

Here's my reasoning:
White and all shades of grey have equal color balance of RGB.

18% grey cards are standardized to have equal RGB values and all 18% grey cards have the same RGB value.

White paper is not standardized for color purity. That's not the purpose for which they are made (copier paper for instance) As Karl points out in the discussion referenced below, white papers may contain different minerals which may flouresce in sunlight.

Because you obtained photos which are clearly different, based on Epson vs Grey card WB setting, those two cards are not equal in RGB value balance. What is therefore more likely to have the equal value of RGB, Epson paper or the card which purports to be a true 18% grey card? I'd be hard pressed to say the Epson is truly equal RGB (probably not designed to be) and then the National Geographic card is not truly equal RGB (although it was supposed to be).

My informal tests have been very different from yours (although I was not using the Epson paper). The grey card outperformed white paper in color accuracy every time. Also, I have never obtained an overexposure reading when setting WB using the grey card. I frequently obtained this (in sunlight and bright shadow) using white paper.

Perhaps Karl could weigh in on what wavelength light is most likely to create the flourescence in white papers? Is it more likely to happen in sunlight than flash or incandescent?

Thanks again for your interesting tests.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

I'd like to hear what you & other people think, perhaps try it
yourself. Its something I would like to get a clear 'picture' of.


http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/gallery/dp_review_white_balance_test

http://www.pbase.com/image/7921993

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.com
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

What do you mean. Do you set the white balance on a grey card or do
you measure exposure on a grey card?
To my knowledge grey cards are to measure exposure (F and shutter)
with any camera (analog & digital) and white cards are to set the
white balance (digital only).

 

[Jake7]

A 'grey' card has two sides -- one sid is White, and one side is Gray.

My gray card also has two sides, a gray side if you want to set the
exposure, and a printed side if you want to read the instructions
on how to use the gray side. ;-)

Mine doesn't

The color accuracy will probably be much more affected by your
printing loop than by the small difference between gray and white.
In any case, if the color balance is that critical, you will
probably have to make a small adjustment prior to printing, but
that's just for extremely accurate work. You printer calibration
(profiling) influences the colors much more than the small
difference between a white card and a gray card.

BTW, the fuction of white balance is pretty straight forward, and
that's why you can use either white or gray. A good gray card has
no color... it is just a subdued tone of white, and good gray cards
are expensive. The standard is Kodak. Anyway, the white balance
simply looks at the card, and measures the 'chrominance' (color)
channels of the image. It then subtracts whatever value it measured
from your photos as you take them. The 'luminance' (brightness)
channel is ignored. That's why there is little difference between
white and gray, they both look similar in the 'chrominance' channel
when they are both pure color.

Interesting .... but are you able to quote one DC manufacturer who recommends using anything other than 'white' for setting white balance?

BTW you can't really beat using a well-washed, clean white handkerchief for setting white balance.

 

[Jake7]

I just got my S602 and some of the time the sky comes out cyan or
has some green in it and looks bad. This happens on a clear sunny
day. I took the same picture at the same time with an Olympus E-10
and the sky comes out perfect.

Has anyone played with the WB settings and what's best to use,
AUTO, the preset setttings or the custom settings.

I've always found that the AUTO W/B is fairly accurate for most day-to-day use.

I can't say that I've ever had the same problem that you're reporting.

Indoors, I would always use a custom setting - especially in situations where you get a mixture of light sources or you don't know the colour of the light source -- which is most times

 

[ianR]

Hi

Interesting .... but are you able to quote one DC manufacturer who
recommends using anything other than 'white' for setting white
balance?

I'll have a look. I doubt any of them quote much, but I'll bet I can find several dozen pros in the pro forums that'll recommend it, an expodisk or a styrofoam cup placed over the lens (yes really)

BTW you can't really beat using a well-washed, clean white
handkerchief for setting white balance.

Unless it's been washed with a washing powder which has lain a paste of optical brighteners on it of course.
PS I've just bought an expodisc so I'll report back if it's any good

http://www.digitalfocus.net/sections/reviews/ColorManagement/Expodisc/Expodisc_1.htm
Ian

--
6900

 

[marius100281]

Ian,

I, for one, would be very interested in hearing your results on the Expo/Disc. Where'd you buy it at, if I might ask?

PS I've just bought an expodisc so I'll report back if it's any good

http://www.digitalfocus.net/sections/reviews/ColorManagement/Expodisc/Expodisc_1.htm
Ian

--
-marius
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php

 

[ianR]

Hi Marius

You have to order it directly from Wallace products (there's a link in the article). They were very polite and efficient.

So far, the results are very good but I've only tested it indoors under artificial light. I can get a very accurate white balance by pointing the camera at the source and thus only extracting the colour from the light, rather than extracting the light and any reflections off the walls with a card. If you'v' gor peach walls then the card will pick up a boit of the peach in the light and will make the walls a little grey.

I only got it yesterday but it can manage a more accurate balance under these settings than anything else I've tried. Very easy to use too. Maybe under this dull light the results are never going to look pleasing, but the point is it looks 'exactly' like it does with the naked eye.

Plus, I've got to try the trick for testing the camera's exposure accuracy. Can't wait.
regards
Ian

PS I've just bought an expodisc so I'll report back if it's any good

http://www.digitalfocus.net/sections/reviews/ColorManagement/Expodisc/Expodisc_1.htm
Ian

--
-marius
Visit the S602Z FAQ: http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php

--
6900

 

[Azrifel]

Here's my reasoning:
White and all shades of grey have equal color balance of RGB.

18% grey cards are standardized to have equal RGB values and all
18% grey cards have the same RGB value.

I have been doing some searching and reading and I now think that this statement is true and that a good grey card can be used for exposure metering as well as setting the whitebalance. That the card is 18% grey is convenient for exposure measuring, but not a must for whitebalance. The advantage is that, like you say, a real grey card has equal levels of RGB values like true white also should have.

Because you obtained photos which are clearly different, based on
Epson vs Grey card WB setting, those two cards are not equal in RGB
value balance. What is therefore more likely to have the equal
value of RGB, Epson paper or the card which purports to be a true
18% grey card? I'd be hard pressed to say the Epson is truly equal
RGB (probably not designed to be) and then the National Geographic
card is not truly equal RGB (although it was supposed to be).

It is because I use them side by side that I really notice the difference between the two types of card. Both do far better than the auto setting in this light. I might also be hard to make a correct measurement on a book cover. Only last week I found out how useful a grey card can be for measuring exposure and I intend to get myself a better one soon.

One thing I do wonder about: When you set the whitebalance on the white you are also going to print the picture on, does that theoratically make an optimum print (color profiles etc calibrated)? No need to answer this one, because I like the prints as they are already.

My informal tests have been very different from yours (although I
was not using the Epson paper). The grey card outperformed white
paper in color accuracy every time. Also, I have never obtained an
overexposure reading when setting WB using the grey card. I
frequently obtained this (in sunlight and bright shadow) using
white paper.

I have yet to set an outdoor manual whitebalance, I have alway's used auto, sunny and cloudy with decent results (I don't alway's have time to adjust to the ever changing light outside).

Indoors and for flash I do set in manually, usually on an A3 white background or an A5 whitecard. But in those situations it didn't overexpose on the white.

Thanks again for your interesting tests.

I have learned something new and useful, so thanks for the replies.

--
Sander [Fuji602 SonyP1]
http://www.azrifel.com
http://www.pbase.com/azrifel/