717 a disaster

[TenDee]

There will always be problems with electronic devices. It does not matter if the product is brand new like the F717 or an older product that is still in production. I'm a manufacturing engineer for an electronic contract manufacturer. We build many different electronic assemblies ranging from simple sensor circuits to increadibly complicated video conferencing units. We build GPS units, hospital equipment that monitor patients vitals, and everything in between. We place all sorts of electronic components such as QFPs, BGAs, SOICs, resistors, caps, diodes....

I have worked in this field for about 15 years and I get at least 10 ECO (engineering change orders) per week. I currently have at least 50 active products that we build in our surface mount department. Sometimes, when a new product comes out, we will get 5-10 ECOs in a 6 month period for the same product. Most of the time these ECOs are to correct issues that have been discovered by end users. Sometimes a component such as an IC becomes obsolete or has changed so, another ECO comes out. I still get ECOs on products that we have been building every month for 6 years.

My point is, there are many things that can go wrong when building electronic circuits. Electronics is a forever changing and evolving beast. Prototypes can work perfectly then once you get into full production problems creep in.

Surely the F707 has had ECOs during it's production run. I doubt that the last F707 that came off the production line was built with the same exact part values that the first F707 had.

Unfortunatly, if you are the first to own a F717 you may be a Guinea Pig. I'll bet there will be ECOs that will improve the reliability of the F717.

BTW, ECOs include software changes as well as hardware/component changes.

I would also bet that Sony uses electronic contract manufactures to build some, if not all, of their Sony cameras.

Pat

Sony digital camera dept people need shooting (with their own
cameras) - thats if they can be focused upon correctly.

I was always taught that if you go over someone's house for dinner,
you don't complain about the food.
--
--Kimberly--
I was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs...

Was it one of the wild corn dogs that taught you that, Kimberly?

Seriously (ish) I assume you were talking about people here
criticising Phil Askey on his own forum? I think Phil can take it -
in fact, I think he knew exactly what he was doing when he implied
that mac west had a psychologically-based camera problem. After
all, it certainly got us all typing quicker!

Cheers Kimberly.

--
David Barker

 

[Jeebes]

Akkers -

Fortunately, we can tell from a person's posts and history that
they don't have much experience when dealing with other people,
which is what it's all about here in the forums.

You've been here for all of three weeks. Now, that's not any sort
of a put-down. It's a simple acknowledgment that if there is a
problem, don't you think that those with some experience here in
the forum and with cameras are going to look into it?

When the first ones to declare an issue with the camera are those
who have next to NO history in the forum other than to come in with
negativity, then you can be assured that it's THOSE fellows who
need to lay the burden of proof down regarding their issue.

Here, here............Well put (as usual) Uly.

Doesn't that make sense to you?

Rest assured that if there is a focus issue, we're going to find
it. And if the issue belongs to a certain allotment number from
production, we're going to find it.

THe simple reason that Phil didn't originally find the DLS was
because that problem did NOT appear until well along in the
camera's production run. It wasn't an issue in the earliest of
cameras. Even some of the other problems were not consistent issues
with all F707 cameras.

Let's relax, put the clubs and spears down and try to figure this
out, while you still have one another's help and respect.

So why dont you guys accept that the 717 CAN and does have problems
that people are talking about on this forum instead of labeling
their problems as 'pyshological'.

This forum should force people to declare in the footer of posts
whether they are members of the Sony Fan Club or if they work for
Sony.

--

Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

mac -

Just to clarify:

How many F717 units have you had?
Where was each unit obtained?
Could you give the month and year of production for each?
Could you give the serial numbers? (you can leave off the last 2 digits)
What was the specific problem you had with each?

Thanks.

well guess what after two 717s that had focusing problems the third
one focuses much better still not like 707 the @#$% lcd screen and
evf have gone out tried the reset nothing you hear the song and see
nothing this one about 5 hours old. yeah great product of the year
thank god for B&h and sears return policy will not try again.
MAC west NYC
ps waiting for everyone to tell me nothing wrong with camera its me.

--

Ulysses

 

[Hal Fisher]

I think around here you do. I have yet to see one worthwhile test on these matters posted by any of them. I've seen some beany babies and a cat shot under random conditions but nothing even close to a matrix of conditions.

I just shot test under regular lighting (no focus assist) under the steps I intend to use tonight. No problems there at all (but I never said regular focusing had a problem). About another 3 hours and the results should be in from me anyway.

Hal

That is not my point, I want there to be discussion of problems
because it helps us all out in finding ways around them. The point
I am making is that there is some kind of mob mentality going on
based on a few people with possibly bad cameras. Because one
person has a bad camera does not mean all users have a bad camera.
I have not been able to duplicate the problems some are having.

When a scientists makes a discovery, they usually have their
findings tested by others to validate the claims. If those claims
cannot be duplicated, then there is something wrong with the claim,
either it is a case of something that is not wide spread, or it is
operator error. As we delve into the problem it is becoming clear
it is not a wide spread problem, but an isolated problem and
possibly operator error as well.

Lets get to the bottom of it without attacking people trying to
help shall we, or has this become the Sony rant and vent forum
instead?

--
Shay

My Sony F707 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
My F717 Observations: http://www.shaystephens.com/f717.asp

 

[Todd Moore]

Where do you look for the production date?

Thanks

Just to clarify:

How many F717 units have you had?
Where was each unit obtained?
Could you give the month and year of production for each?
Could you give the serial numbers? (you can leave off the last 2
digits)
What was the specific problem you had with each?

Thanks.

well guess what after two 717s that had focusing problems the third
one focuses much better still not like 707 the @#$% lcd screen and
evf have gone out tried the reset nothing you hear the song and see
nothing this one about 5 hours old. yeah great product of the year
thank god for B&h and sears return policy will not try again.
MAC west NYC
ps waiting for everyone to tell me nothing wrong with camera its me.

--

Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

I think around here you do. I have yet to see one worthwhile test
on these matters posted by any of them.

Come on, Hal. You cannot be serious.

--

Ulysses

 

[Don Blum41346]

well guess what after two 717s that had focusing problems the third
one focuses much better still not like 707 the @#$% lcd screen and
evf have gone out tried the reset nothing you hear the song and see
nothing this one about 5 hours old. yeah great product of the year
thank god for B&h and sears return policy will not try again.
MAC west NYC
ps waiting for everyone to tell me nothing wrong with camera its me.

Does your microwave oven leak? Does your digital watch burn through
batteries in a week or two? When was the last time you were
demagnetized?

I suppose it is possible to have compound anti-luck, but this seems
extreme. Perhaps it indicates a wild talent of some sort that is
incompatible with these cameras? If your devining rods don't seem
to find water, how about oil?

I've had days in which I thought all of technology was against me,
and nothing I did seemed to go right. Perhaps it will pass. Or
perhaps this is nature's way of telling you that you are a film
person.

-iNova
--
http://www.digitalsecrets.net

Phenomenally perceptive...each one of us creates his own perception of reality which is subtly confirmed by the projection of his wishes.. depending on the bias of expectations a minor problem can accelerate, the reverse is also true.

There are those that always have jinxed automobiles, bad health, and lousy jobs.. and when the going goes well, the anxiety of lack of conflict finds a way of of being right about something being wrong..

I am not saying this about Mac or anybody here, but merely stimulated by Peter's response.

I set myself up doing the same...for example, this post!

--
Don Blum

 

[Ulysses]

Richard_

You're the one who said that Phil missed the DLS problem, right?

Okay, that issue was dealt with earlier, so I won't repeat it.

No one has rejected the possibility that there might be some isolated focus issues for some individuals.

What Shay and others of us are saying is that we're also not here to commit the camera to the grave without testing it.

Why is that being confused with somehow waving a Sony flag?? I'll waive the Sony flag any day of the week in exchange for being able to wave a well-focused, fully saturated, and properly exposed picture here in the good old Sony Talk Forum.

I'm sure you feel the same.

Let's all get to the bottom of figuring it out. At the same time, let's acknowledge that by FAR it is a very small minority of folks who are having these issues. This does not make the F717 a poor camera by any means.

The G2 has its issues. Is it a bad camera out of the plant?
The 5700 has some issues. Is it a bad camera?
The D60, D100, and S2 all have issues. Bad cameras?

--

Ulysses

 

[Hal Fisher]

Ha ha. Which one, the beanie babies or the cat photo? heehee.

Hal

I think around here you do. I have yet to see one worthwhile test
on these matters posted by any of them.

Come on, Hal. You cannot be serious.

--

Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

They will always shoot the messenger. when it is clear sonys
quality control is lacking but time will tell .

Heheheh... I don't know if you qualify as the messenger. But you may end up the scapegoat.

Just work along with the folks who can be of help to you. Don't push them away. Just trying to be of sincere help here. It's what I do.

Have you considered that rather than Sony quality control that the issues may also be the warehouse, the shipping, or some other third-party handler issue?

Look at the UPS horror story earlier today. And the camera survived!!!

 

[John Burns]

I guess you are talking about my beanie baby picture earlier in this thread. If you bothered to read the thread up to that point you would see it was posted in response to a comment of a 717 delivering washed out colors. It had nothing to do with a focus problem. Now I suppose I could have taken a series of that shot each one 1 foot further back than the preceeding one but I have to tell ya the colors would have been the same in each.

I just shot test under regular lighting (no focus assist) under the
steps I intend to use tonight. No problems there at all (but I
never said regular focusing had a problem). About another 3 hours
and the results should be in from me anyway.

Hal

That is not my point, I want there to be discussion of problems
because it helps us all out in finding ways around them. The point
I am making is that there is some kind of mob mentality going on
based on a few people with possibly bad cameras. Because one
person has a bad camera does not mean all users have a bad camera.
I have not been able to duplicate the problems some are having.

When a scientists makes a discovery, they usually have their
findings tested by others to validate the claims. If those claims
cannot be duplicated, then there is something wrong with the claim,
either it is a case of something that is not wide spread, or it is
operator error. As we delve into the problem it is becoming clear
it is not a wide spread problem, but an isolated problem and
possibly operator error as well.

Lets get to the bottom of it without attacking people trying to
help shall we, or has this become the Sony rant and vent forum
instead?

--
Shay

My Sony F707 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
My F717 Observations: http://www.shaystephens.com/f717.asp

--
John

 

[Todd Moore]

Shay,

What is the serial number on your 717?

I don't understand, look, DLS crept up as a problem well after
the camera was introduced. It couldn't possibly have been included
in the review, because at the time it was not a problem.

Try using the analytical skills we all have been trained to use and
not just jump to conclusions that cannot be backed up by facts.

--
Shay

My Sony F707 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
My F717 Observations: http://www.shaystephens.com/f717.asp

 

[Mike Fitzgerald]

Pat, you're absolutely correct about the capriciousness of manufacture, even with the best toleranced designs. I was in a closely related sutation to yours, with electromechanical products, through the seventies.

In the main, I think the majority of consumers are reasonable enough people who will accept this without too much grizzling, provided that retail supplier, distributor and manufacturer, as applicable, treat all problems, including previously undocumented or reported ones, promptly, courteously and above all proactively.

Unfortunately, although many problem 707 owners have had good experiences it's largely because their local contact people have had the right attitude, and there are a great many who have not been so lucky. Promulgating and monitoring the right service stance, worldwide, must ultimately come down to Sony Japan's mission statement as it affects individual end users. From what has been showing up over recent years, Sony's corporate attitude in this regard has to be seen as worse than lamentable, and its leadership efforts ZERO.

Small wonder, then, that a few people get brittle when the writing on the wall looks worrisome to them with another new product.

As an aside, I do put a rider on my opening comments about manufacture these days. And that's to say that I'm not happy about the extent to which consumers are being used as quality inspectors. It's not too bad when suspect items are replaced with grace and without automatic challenge of the user's competence. But even the most prompt replacement of a faulty item doesn't account for the customer's time, inconvenience or shoe leather.

Once again -- and I'm by no means suggesting that this possible issue could necessarily be addressed by it -- there's going to be a lot of people grinding their teeth over Sony's continued refusal to permit firmware upgrades by the user.

Mike

Melbourne, Australia (with Sony's attitude here being arguably one of the world's worst)

There will always be problems with electronic devices. It does not
matter if the product is brand new like the F717 or an older
product that is still in production.
...
I have worked in this field for about 15 years and I get at least
10 ECO (engineering change orders) per week. ...

[snip]

 

[Michael B68227]

LOL jeezzz... Thank God sony puts the camera in the bottom half of the box.. I had a dcr-trv730 camcorder that came to me sitting in a flood in the back of the ups truck, thank god the box was upside down.. Camera was fine and never had a problem. As for the 717.. i still have been fooling around with my 707, but I will have to test my focus. Getting depressed hearing all these problems. I will have to set my 707 and my 717 up side by side and do focus tests ..

It spent 5 days in transit soaking and still took WONDERFUL test
shots. If mine went through this and took sharp, well-focused
shots, then there's a good chance yours will too.

It's way too easy to blame a product when it has to be used
differently than you want it too. Time will tell whether these
"problems" really are such. Until then, try yours out and use it.
If it works for you, who cares what others say? BTW, my
replacement should be in tomorrow as well.

-Seb

Quickly losing my enthusiasm with all these negative comments...and
my camera is not even here yet. I sure hope a bunch of people post
some good-old 707 style saturated pictures!!!!!! Neon colors or
not!
Isabel

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Digipets/?yguid=11497599

 

[Solomon]

Hi Uly:

You know, I lurk more than I post. But, I read most of this thread and as an outside observation, it seems that the new 717 owners are pi* ed off, Phil's pi ed off, and the ole Sony regulars are pi ed off.

Just a tad too much testosterone surging through the collective veins of the STF.

We need more women on here. You know people to put flowers on the tables and airwicks in the dark corners of the forum. Helen and DeeDee need to go forth and multiply.
We need a kinder and gentiler forum.

re-entering lurk mode.
-EL

mac -

Just to clarify:

How many F717 units have you had?
Where was each unit obtained?
Could you give the month and year of production for each?
Could you give the serial numbers? (you can leave off the last 2
digits)
What was the specific problem you had with each?

 

[Michael B68227]

Phil I havent tested my 717 with the hologram focus yet. Did you do a lot of testing on the hologram part on the final production 717?
Everyone is making my nervous here. lol

Thanks,
Michael

well guess what after two 717s that had focusing problems the third
one focuses much better still not like 707 the @#$% lcd screen and
evf have gone out tried the reset nothing you hear the song and see
nothing this one about 5 hours old. yeah great product of the year
thank god for B&h and sears return policy will not try again.
MAC west NYC
ps waiting for everyone to tell me nothing wrong with camera its me.

--
Phil Askey
Editor / Owner, dpreview.com

 

[Jian]

It's like every hour there's a thread about the focus problem. Is it really necessary? And why haven't anyone posted samples of their focus problem? At least back up your claim by posting samples and how you took each one.

--
Canon S100
Olympus C-720
Sony DSC-F717 (bye bye 707)
http://www.pbase.com/zuffy

 

[Jian]

If I just bought a brand new $1000 camera and it couldn't focus in
low light, I'd be just as upset as you. If I returned that camera
and got another one which didn't work any better, I start blaming
the camera and company too. If I returned the 2nd camera only to
find other faults in the 3rd, I'd have to seriously start looking
to another make/model.

The fact is that many people have received the same camera as you
and it is working just fine. Theirs is not the fluke, the batch
you apparently are pulling from is the rotten apple of the bunch.
If I really wanted this camera I would get it from a source about
as far removed as the ones you have been visiting. If you have
already done that then there is nothing else I can suggest.

well guess what after two 717s that had focusing problems the third
one focuses much better still not like 707 the @#$% lcd screen and
evf have gone out tried the reset nothing you hear the song and see
nothing this one about 5 hours old. yeah great product of the year
thank god for B&h and sears return policy will not try again.
MAC west NYC
ps waiting for everyone to tell me nothing wrong with camera its me.

--
TurboTed

(It's easier just being insane than acting insane)

--
Canon S100
Olympus C-720
Sony DSC-F717 (bye bye 707)
http://www.pbase.com/zuffy

 

[Michael B68227]

Well said.. I love phil's reviews more then anyones.. Anyway. Was it not only a certain set of serial numbers that was affected by the BFS problem in the 707? Do yyou know that Phil had one of those? I didnt see any of the first reviews by any of the top sites , with anything said about BFS.

First of all, I think some of you bashing Phil and his review is
way out of line! Personally I think his reviews are some of the
best on the net. Phil has nothing to gain by misleading you with
false reviews of any camera.

I think that there may or will be issues with any cameras but I
think you need to wait until there is sufficient numbers of bad
cameras that share the same problems before saying that all
717’s are defective.

Until that happens either return the camera or take the problem up
with Sony.

You know Sony sells many more cameras to people other than the
people on this forum. If they didn’t they would be soon out
of the camera business. Sometimes I think that the people on this
forum think the only ones buying Sony cameras are the members here.
LOL. J

Read all the post on the 717. Just remember that people tend to be
quicker to say BAD things (because they are unhappy with their
purchase) than the ones that are SATISFIED!

Regards,

wildbill

 

[Michael B68227]

The second part of that was to richard , not to you wildbill. Richard Questioned Phil's missing of the BFS problem in the 707.

First of all, I think some of you bashing Phil and his review is
way out of line! Personally I think his reviews are some of the
best on the net. Phil has nothing to gain by misleading you with
false reviews of any camera.

I think that there may or will be issues with any cameras but I
think you need to wait until there is sufficient numbers of bad
cameras that share the same problems before saying that all
717’s are defective.

Until that happens either return the camera or take the problem up
with Sony.

You know Sony sells many more cameras to people other than the
people on this forum. If they didn’t they would be soon out
of the camera business. Sometimes I think that the people on this
forum think the only ones buying Sony cameras are the members here.
LOL. J

Read all the post on the 717. Just remember that people tend to be
quicker to say BAD things (because they are unhappy with their
purchase) than the ones that are SATISFIED!

Regards,

wildbill