Need to ask you Pentaxians a favor

[ASA_5]

If you have a friendly bet with your friends about who has the fastest focusing camera, this might be of relevance.

If your interest is taking photographs, this has zero relevance.

Wha? So AF speed doesn't matter in cameras which are used for taking photographs? I guess that makes sense to people that only have MF lenses. I guess that also makes sense for Pentax who hasn't improved SAFOX in 3 generations of DSLR. Though you do know that the OP's question was about focus speed in low light right? That is why I responded. He specifically asked for information that didn't come out of the brochure, so I thought I would share some with him. I guess he is only interested in seeing if his camera is faster than his wife's?

Top 5 excuses fans use to deflect criticism from any Pentax technical weaknesses:

-"Stop talking about cameras and go take some pictures."

-"It's always been good enough for me. I don't need a camera that can (fill in the blank).
-"Sure Canikon is faster, but half of all your images will be blurry."
-"Canikon are not without problems too."

And recently coming in at #1:
-"Have you seen the sales numbers of the k-x in Japan?"

Oh, and ScyCs, the behavior you are talking about on the k-x vs the A550, is a well-known Pentax DSLR phenomena. Ever since the k10d, Pentax AF (based on SAFOX) slows down considerably below EV6. A good example of that can be seen in the data from Pop photo. Look at the last chart. AF speed vs EV. (Link 1 is the k-7, and link 2 is the entry-level Sony A380.) Past EV6, the Sony destroys the k-7. By EV0, the difference is a factor of 2:
http://www.popphoto.com/Reviews/Cameras/Camera-Test-Pentax-K-7?page=0,1
http://www.popphoto.com/Reviews/Cameras/Camera-Test-Sony-Alpha-380?page=0,1

 

[TMalford]

Though you do know that the OP's question was about focus speed in low light right?

Right. He asked specifically about how the focus speed of the K7 in low light compared to that of the K-x.

That is why I responded.

You responded with two links, neither of which answered his question.

He specifically asked for information that didn't come out of the brochure, so I thought I would share some with him.

You shared information he didn't ask for.

I guess he is only interested in seeing if his camera is faster than his wife's?

His post is still there. You could go practice your reading comprehension.

 

[JeffJS]

I cannot give a Kx vs K7 compare. However I can say that with all 3 of the flagship Pentax's (K10d, K20d, K7) my general experience has been that as long as there is contrast , the camera locks right on. Each camera being better than the previous with respect to AF speed. If I'm trying to focus a black on black subject in a dark room, the camera will hunt (all 3 of them do) for something to lock on to. This is true regardless of the lens also.
--
http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q109/jjkyle/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13300089@N08/

 

[ASA_5]

I cannot give a Kx vs K7 compare. However I can say that with all 3 of the flagship Pentax's (K10d, K20d, K7) my general experience has been that as long as there is contrast , the camera locks right on. Each camera being better than the previous with respect to AF speed. If I'm trying to focus a black on black subject in a dark room, the camera will hunt (all 3 of them do) for something to lock on to. This is true regardless of the lens also.
--

Sorry Jeff, but this is not entirely true. It may be the perception of people who have owned k10d, k20d, and k-7 (as have I) but it is not supported by the facts. In fact, the popphoto AF tests show that the AF speed between the k20d and k-7 are almost identical. (Using high contrast targets) I did not find the AF speed significantly faster myself either.

You may think that I haven't answered the OP's question, but I daresay I have been more honest with Pentax's limitations than anyone here so far. He wants to know if the K-7 is slower or faster than the k-x. Well no one has that data here. So, the next best thing is to show him how darn slow the k-7 is in dimmer light (as was his question.) He can see it in the video for himself (which was taken using high-contrast targets according to the poster), he can also see it in the AF data vs a Sony AF system he is familiar with. If the k-x is faster than the k-7 he sure doesn't want to upgrade that direction. If the k-7 is faster, then the k-x must be glacial.

 

[brandrx]

Though you do know that the OP's question was about focus speed in low light right?

Right. He asked specifically about how the focus speed of the K7 in low light compared to that of the K-x.

That is why I responded.

You responded with two links, neither of which answered his question.

He specifically asked for information that didn't come out of the brochure, so I thought I would share some with him.

You shared information he didn't ask for.

I guess he is only interested in seeing if his camera is faster than his wife's?

His post is still there. You could go practice your reading comprehension.

It is my opinion that he can't read Terry. So, he won't even be able to understand what you've written let alone going back to read again the OP.

I don't think he is interested in anything but his vendetta against Pentax. I wonder if we have another RH here? Or, perhaps IT is RH himself.

Cheers.

--

'Every day when I get up the first thing I do is grab one of my Pentax DSLR cameras and run to the mirror just so I can start the day off with a double dose of beauty.' ~ brandrx

Ron - 'We don't have time to go take pics this afternoon Carl.'
Carl - 'What do you mean? It will only take 1/1000s.'

'Keep your eyes looking forward. However, glance back now and then to see where you've come from. It will put a smile on your face.' ~ brandrx

Ron ~ Retired.

 

[JeffJS]

I cannot give a Kx vs K7 compare. However I can say that with all 3 of the flagship Pentax's (K10d, K20d, K7) my general experience has been that as long as there is contrast , the camera locks right on. Each camera being better than the previous with respect to AF speed. If I'm trying to focus a black on black subject in a dark room, the camera will hunt (all 3 of them do) for something to lock on to. This is true regardless of the lens also.
--

Sorry Jeff, but this is not entirely true. It may be the perception of people who have owned k10d, k20d, and k-7 (as have I) but it is not supported by the facts. In fact, the popphoto AF tests show that the AF speed between the k20d and k-7 are almost identical. (Using high contrast targets) I did not find the AF speed significantly faster myself either.

You may think that I haven't answered the OP's question, but I daresay I have been more honest with Pentax's limitations than anyone here so far. He wants to know if the K-7 is slower or faster than the k-x. Well no one has that data here. So, the next best thing is to show him how darn slow the k-7 is in dimmer light (as was his question.) He can see it in the video for himself (which was taken using high-contrast targets according to the poster), he can also see it in the AF data vs a Sony AF system he is familiar with. If the k-x is faster than the k-7 he sure doesn't want to upgrade that direction. If the k-7 is faster, then the k-x must be glacial.

Well, I'm about as concerned with what Pop Photo says today as I was 20 years ago when my last subscription ran out. Nada, zip, zero. Speed graphs, videos, resolution charts interest me about as much. What Does interest me and is important to me is can I get the shot. The answer is yes.

To catch one of these in the dark (K20, FA31mm)



or one of these period (K7, DA*16-50 and yes, the SDM is working)



the AF needs to be pretty quick. Is it measurably a lot faster? Don't know for certain. Don't really care either. I typically only carry one camera at a time. I can say with certainty though that subjects that were troublesome with the K10d were easier with the K20d and again with the K7. That may be the 'perception' of the speed and in my book, again, getting the shot is what counts. I don't care if it's with a Pentax dSLR or a corn flakes box with a sheet of film inside.

Your experience (if you really have any) is one of many owners. It does not make it as conclusive as you seem to think it is. So before you spout off with your typical Fanboy mantra, Proud member of the club here. I'm happy with my Pentax cameras and lenses and that is what seems to trouble you the most. Sucks for you that you are more worried about reading charts and watching videos of others taking photos than taking pictures yourself.
--
http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q109/jjkyle/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13300089@N08/

 

[Russell Evans]

Russell, the kit lens on both was the one i was questioning.

Pentax's AF isn't the top performer to begin with, so I don't think they are able to cripple it for marketing purposes in the K-X. I think we are getting the best the AF can do out of both cameras, with the only variables being the in body motors and the AF assist light.

The in camera motors have been different on the lower level Pentax bodies in the past. They have been slower. I don't know if this is still true with the K-X, but hopefully someone with both the K-X and K-7, can confirm or deny that this is still the case.

With screw driven lenses like the DA 18-55mm, I would expect that the K-7 will be able to move the focus elements quicker than the K-X if the above is still true. If you move to a SDM lens, then, as the lens contains the motor, performance will be similar, except as noted in the other posts, where the K-7 can use its AF assist light and you wouldn't use the on board flash of the K-X.

The second AF sensor in the K-7, from what I've read, isn't about AF speed, but AF accuracy in artificial light. Unless you are reading a post from someone with the K-7 saying otherwise, I wouldn't put much faith in people saying the second sensor improves the AF speed.

You might want to wait until after next month before making a decision about where to go next anyway. Pentax's next body has to have better AF as it is about the only thing they haven't pushed up into a more competitive stance. I don't know if Pentax will announce a new camera, but the time is short enough and pricing seems stable, so there doesn't seem much to lose.

I should also note, most people here will give the advice to upgrade lenses before bodies. You will probably find that if you spent that $1000 on faster optically better lenses for the K-X, that you would realize a much larger improvement in just about all aspects, including AF performance, than the sum of all the improvements in the K-7.

Thank you
Russell

--
http://waorak.tripod.com/

 

[labnut]

Marvellous reply, you certainly know how to de-construct his nonsense.

Though you do know that the OP's question was about focus speed in low light right?

Right. He asked specifically about how the focus speed of the K7 in low light compared to that of the K-x.

That is why I responded.

You responded with two links, neither of which answered his question.

He specifically asked for information that didn't come out of the brochure, so I thought I would share some with him.

You shared information he didn't ask for.

I guess he is only interested in seeing if his camera is faster than his wife's?

His post is still there. You could go practice your reading comprehension.

 

[ASA_5]

Marvellous reply, you certainly know how to de-construct his nonsense.

Why don't you give the OP some information he can actually use? You can say what you want about me. I really don't care, and actually get a chuckle about it. Because I am touching a nerve that you know is the truth. I have not attacked anyone here personally, nor will I. I am giving the OP actual facts that are obtained through independent testing. Several others here are giving him what he specifically asked us not to include (typical marketing babble etc.) I see a whole lot of speculation and excuses about what people expect like "oh the k-7 should be faster because it has an AF assist lamp." But that is more hope than fact. As Britney pointed out, the k-7 AF begins to slow down well before the AF light even kicks on. Russell is much more diplomatic than I but I agree that "Pentax's AF isn't the top performer to begin with."

Why is it so hard to accept that fact? I would rather people complain about it so it is increased to the level of the competition in the k-8, than continue to sing the Pentax fight song to anyone that asks us for an opinion.

 

[wy2lam]

First, have you tried them with the same third party lens? AF speed is 1/3 camera, 2/3 lens.

My wife has a K-x and i own a Sony A550. We're both fairly happy with our choices and both love our cams, even exchange them in certain situations, so this isn't about Sony vs. Pentax or anything similar.

However, we're about to step up soon. The question i have is the following:

My A550's autofocus is (in conditions that are less than super bright) faster than the Pentax AF. The dimmer it gets, the more the A550 autofocus is superior to the one on the K-x. Now i would rather not go with a camera with even worse autofocus performance than the K-x.....

So basically, is the autofocus speed IN DIM LIGHT (indoors, not many light sources) on the K-7 slower,faster or the same as the K-x???

Thanks for your honest answers. And R.M., don't give me your typical Pentax marketing babble please.

 

[wy2lam]

Yada Yada Yada.

We KNOW it's slower than N C and S, and SO WHAT? It's still hell of a lot faster than the fastest focusing P&S cams, and for most of us, it is good enough .

Being "good enough" is a subjective opinion, which you're trying to spin as being an excuse. So we're not allowed to be happy with something because it's good enough? Nice try.

For me, low light AF of my K-7 is noticeably better than the K10D on the same lens. I don't care what PopPhoto says (it made mistakes before copying AF times or ISO S/N ratios from the review of one body to another). In my experience, it's head-and-shoulder faster, period.

Lastly, no matter how many complaints are here, Pentax will fix things at their own pace. Why bother with all the repetitive comments? The last maybe 100 posts in your history are all about slow Pentax AF speed. I don't like fanboy posts too, but you're starting to sound like a certain individual whose almost every post is a disparaging comment on the APS-C sensor. Needless to say that person is on my ignore list.

Even if you have a point, spamming the forum with variations of it in a confrontational tone certainly makes you annoying and your point will NOT get across.

Everybody knows that fanboys are annoying, but you don't seem to realise that the polar opposite of fanboys are equally as annoying.

If you have a friendly bet with your friends about who has the fastest focusing camera, this might be of relevance.

If your interest is taking photographs, this has zero relevance.

Wha? So AF speed doesn't matter in cameras which are used for taking photographs? I guess that makes sense to people that only have MF lenses. I guess that also makes sense for Pentax who hasn't improved SAFOX in 3 generations of DSLR. Though you do know that the OP's question was about focus speed in low light right? That is why I responded. He specifically asked for information that didn't come out of the brochure, so I thought I would share some with him. I guess he is only interested in seeing if his camera is faster than his wife's?

Top 5 excuses fans use to deflect criticism from any Pentax technical weaknesses:

-"Stop talking about cameras and go take some pictures."

-"It's always been good enough for me. I don't need a camera that can (fill in the blank).
-"Sure Canikon is faster, but half of all your images will be blurry."
-"Canikon are not without problems too."

And recently coming in at #1:
-"Have you seen the sales numbers of the k-x in Japan?"

Oh, and ScyCs, the behavior you are talking about on the k-x vs the A550, is a well-known Pentax DSLR phenomena. Ever since the k10d, Pentax AF (based on SAFOX) slows down considerably below EV6. A good example of that can be seen in the data from Pop photo. Look at the last chart. AF speed vs EV. (Link 1 is the k-7, and link 2 is the entry-level Sony A380.) Past EV6, the Sony destroys the k-7. By EV0, the difference is a factor of 2:
http://www.popphoto.com/Reviews/Cameras/Camera-Test-Pentax-K-7?page=0,1
http://www.popphoto.com/Reviews/Cameras/Camera-Test-Sony-Alpha-380?page=0,1

 

[Emmanuel Diver]

I've not used a K-x but in terms of what I upgraded from which was a K100D, the autofocus on the K7 is vastly superior and the AF lamp is a gread addition, there were times on my K100D that I had a Sigma flash equipped just for it's AF strobe.
--
http://www.flickr.com/mannydee

 

[labnut]

Marvellous reply, you certainly know how to de-construct his nonsense.

Why don't you give the OP some information he can actually use?

You obviously didn't read my earlier post. I carefully reported my experience as a K7 user. After all he was asking for user experience and adding the account of my experience was a helpful reply.

But that is more hope than fact.

My experience is a plain fact. Experiences vary of course. This is one of the facts that the OP can consider in his final conclusion.

the k-7 AF begins to slow down well before the AF light even kicks on.

Yes, it slows down but that is not the issue. The question should be - does it remain effective and useable in dim light conditions? In my experience I can say yes it does.

Why is it so hard to accept that fact?

I would rather ask - why is it so hard to accept that so many of us who have carefully used our K7 cameras are entirely happy with the K7 AF performance?

 

[Russell Evans]

I did this a while back and thought I would update it with the K-7 data. The numbers above EV 4 look pretty good.

Just to remind everyone, this is the description of EV 4 & 5 on Fred Parker's Ultimate Exposure Computer web page.

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm#Light%20Intensity%20Chart

EV 5 - Night home interiors, average light. School or church auditoriums. Subjects lit by campfires or bonfires.

EV 4 - Candle lit close-ups. Christmas lights, floodlit buildings, fountains, and monuments. Subjects under bright street lamps.



I had trouble making out the numbers on PopPhoto's K-7 stats jpeg. Check out the data on the spreadsheet and let me know if the numbers are right.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AoOE9_TdlzaNcGRuV1lMdVFFcDZWS0c1X2MtdWtCVEE&hl=en

http://www.popphoto.com/Reviews/Cameras/Camera-Test-Pentax-K-7?page=0,1

Thank you
Russell

--
http://waorak.tripod.com/

 

[ScYcS]

No i have not and i don't see that as relevant either. If i decide between the A700 and the K-7 and want to know if the K-7 is slower, faster or same with the same kit lens (than the K-x), then it won't make a difference as if i bought the A700 i could use the A550 lenses i have on it and with the K-7 i could use the lens it comes with initially.

Apart from that, both were used with their kit lenses (Sony 18-55mm and Pentax 18-55mm). Neither one is a speed demon in first place. Both share the same aperture values though.

 

[Russell Evans]

Apart from that, both were used with their kit lenses (Sony 18-55mm and Pentax 18-55mm). Neither one is a speed demon in first place. Both share the same aperture values though.

Not all things are the same. The Sony 18-55mm has a 60 degree throw while the Pentax 18-55mm has a 80 degree throw. Pentax still seems to cater to people that like to manual focus or tweak focus. This is the reason the lenses have quick shift. Really, if you can get the focus pretty close manually via quick shift, then hit the AF button to finish, it might be quicker than any AF could do on its own.

The Sony 18-55mm might also have better contrast, be sharper, or both, than the Pentax 18-55mm too. The fastest lens I have for AF is the FA 35mm f2 which has incredible sharpness and contrast wide open. The fastest AF zoom I have would probably be a Sigma AF 75-200mm f3.8. I think it is faster focusing than the DA * 50-135mm f2.8 I have, but I have to admit to never testing it out. It is what it is as far as I'm concerned. I'm one of those "good enough" people.

So are you upgrading your Sony to the K-7, or are you upgrading the K-X? I just assumed it was the K-X, but it sounds like the Sony in this last post?

Thank you
Russell

--
http://waorak.tripod.com/

 

[ScYcS]

No, my wife and i both want ONE model that has certain features (e.g. dual dials) that both, the A700 and the K-7 provide. Since we have pentax AND sony already, it only makes sense to look into either the A700 or the K-7 for this more advanced body. We will keep both, the A550 and the K-x, no matter which model we end up buying.

It's just a matter of deciding between going with the advanced Pentax or the advanced Sony body....

And again, i don't think it's relevant wether i used a fast or slow lens on my A550 compared to my K-x if my real question is if the K-7 AF is comparable in K-x AF speed.....i probably should never have mentioned my A550 at all, it only confuses people and distracts from my real question.

 

[Russell Evans]

No, my wife and i both want ONE model that has certain features (e.g. dual dials) that both, the A700 and the K-7 provide. Since we have pentax AND sony already, it only makes sense to look into either the A700 or the K-7 for this more advanced body. We will keep both, the A550 and the K-x, no matter which model we end up buying.

Are you planning any lens purchases in the future? If you are thinking about lenses then you should use that to determine the body. Pick out the lenses you are interested in and see what you can afford and let that be your guide.

If I was to do this, my choice probably would end up Sony. I see the Beercan on ebay for under $200. I see the Tokina 80-400mm II for sale and at reasonable prices for Sony on ebay. I would love to have the Sony 50mm f1.4, the Sony 28mm f2.8 , the Sony 100mm macro isn't more expensive than the Pentax 100mm macro, the Sigma 50-150mm f2.8, Sigma 18-50mm f2.8 macro, the Sigma 10-20mm f4-5.6. Sony probably has a better chance of getting the Tokina 11-16mm f2.8 and the Sigma 150mm f2.8 macro.

If you are just going to stay with the kit lenses, I'm not sure what the decision would be. That really becomes a hard question and I can see your reasons for looking as closely as you can for advantages and disadvantages.

And again, i don't think it's relevant whether i used a fast or slow lens on my A550 compared to my K-x if my real question is if the K-7 AF is comparable in K-x AF speed.....i probably should never have mentioned my A550 at all, it only confuses people and distracts from my real question.

People like to argue, so true it distracts, but your posts are more interesting knowing the choice you are making. (BritneyElvis), Gus I think, seems to have given you the best information so far. Good luck.

Thank you
Russell

--
http://waorak.tripod.com/

 

[jackbw]

I have neither the K-x nor K-7 but my impression from this forum is that the AF speed is similar when compared to other brands. I understand you are choosing to add only a more advanced body, either the A700 or K-7. May I propose that in addition to buying the A700 for yourself, you get a Limited lens for the wife? Let's face it, the A700 will be much faster than the K-7 in low-light. But you must try a Limited lens at least once; you will understand why Pentax exists.

 

[topgun2007]

If you have a friendly bet with your friends about who has the fastest focusing camera, this might be of relevance.

If your interest is taking photographs, this has zero relevance.

Wha? So AF speed doesn't matter in cameras which are used for taking photographs? I guess that makes sense to people that only have MF lenses. I guess that also makes sense for Pentax who hasn't improved SAFOX in 3 generations of DSLR. Though you do know that the OP's question was about focus speed in low light right? That is why I responded. He specifically asked for information that didn't come out of the brochure, so I thought I would share some with him. I guess he is only interested in seeing if his camera is faster than his wife's?

Top 5 excuses fans use to deflect criticism from any Pentax technical weaknesses:

-"Stop talking about cameras and go take some pictures."

-"It's always been good enough for me. I don't need a camera that can (fill in the blank).
-"Sure Canikon is faster, but half of all your images will be blurry."
-"Canikon are not without problems too."

And recently coming in at #1:
-"Have you seen the sales numbers of the k-x in Japan?"

Oh, and ScyCs, the behavior you are talking about on the k-x vs the A550, is a well-known Pentax DSLR phenomena. Ever since the k10d, Pentax AF (based on SAFOX) slows down considerably below EV6. A good example of that can be seen in the data from Pop photo. Look at the last chart. AF speed vs EV. (Link 1 is the k-7, and link 2 is the entry-level Sony A380.) Past EV6, the Sony destroys the k-7. By EV0, the difference is a factor of 2:
http://www.popphoto.com/Reviews/Cameras/Camera-Test-Pentax-K-7?page=0,1
http://www.popphoto.com/Reviews/Cameras/Camera-Test-Sony-Alpha-380?page=0,1

Love your top 5, you should write for David Letterman. Also appreciate your straight forwardness although I'm sure it irritates all the fanboys. Funny how Canon and Nikon forums don't spend a lot of time defending a weakness like poor AF in low light by bragging on other strenghs which are unrelated. For one, I called Pentax and specifically asked about how much improved the K7 was over my K20D and they didn't indicate that there was much improvement which makes sense in that they both use the same SAFOX system. And I can say that the K20D isn't all that great. As far as the poster who said to try a Ltd. lens, I have one and yes I like the results once I get the picture, but that doesn't keep it from hunting in low light. If I did a lot of shooting in low light and that was an important part of my picutre taking, I would move to another brand rather than upgrade from the Kx to the K7 or what for a K8 and hope for the best.

Regards, Jim

--
Equipment list in profile.