Should I use a strobes or hot lights

[Matt Baker]

I'm trying to learn the basics of lighting and have a basic question.

I'm looking at two kits, one is with two hot lights and two umbrellas, the other is a basic strobe kit with two strobes.

The hot light kit is significantly cheaper and I'm on a limited budget. Which would be better to learn the basics of lighting.

 

[Paul Ferrara]

You'd be better off with one strobe and a 60" umbrella. Look at the Alienbees B400 to get started. You can always add more lights later and preserve your investment.

Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com

I'm trying to learn the basics of lighting and have a basic question.
I'm looking at two kits, one is with two hot lights and two
umbrellas, the other is a basic strobe kit with two strobes.
The hot light kit is significantly cheaper and I'm on a limited
budget. Which would be better to learn the basics of lighting.

 

[Paul Ferrara]

This was taken with one strobe and a 3x4' softbox.



Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com

 

[Brian Mackey]

Paul
http://www.paulsportraits.com

I'm trying to learn the basics of lighting and have a basic question.
I'm looking at two kits, one is with two hot lights and two
umbrellas, the other is a basic strobe kit with two strobes.
The hot light kit is significantly cheaper and I'm on a limited
budget. Which would be better to learn the basics of lighting.

--
Oly E-20's? -- Aint no doubt about it!
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mackey135/njdigitalservices.htm
http://www.pbase.com/mackey
http://www.photosig.com/userphotos.php?id=3459

 

[padeye99656]

Getting started on a budget is tough. Try to look at things long term. It's penny wise and pound foolish to get things you have to replace later on. Long term I think you're better off with strobes but if your budget is really slim you can do a hybrid approach. If you get high quality light stands and umbrellas you could start with hot lights then replace them with monolights when your budget allows.

Get quality equipment. Some kits come with cheap stamped steel stands. I've always preferred Bogen stands. The lightweight start at about $40. Ilike the 8' 3086 stands which are about $45.

You will prefer monolights, especially after you bake a portrait subject or melt a still life under hot lights. Hot lights are probably easier to learn with as it's a strictly WYSIWYG setup and you can use your camera's meter effectively. Strobes are mostly WYSIWYG with modeling lights but you will need to get a flash meter to use them well. Visualizing strobes can be a bit tricky as you have to mentally subtract ambient room light but it can actually be an advantage as it gives more control.

WYSIWYG = what you see is what you get.

I'm trying to learn the basics of lighting and have a basic question.
I'm looking at two kits, one is with two hot lights and two
umbrellas, the other is a basic strobe kit with two strobes.
The hot light kit is significantly cheaper and I'm on a limited
budget. Which would be better to learn the basics of lighting.

 

[LKY]

Padeye,

You explained it very clearly.

Getting started on a budget is tough. Try to look at things long
term. It's penny wise and pound foolish to get things you have to
replace later on. Long term I think you're better off with strobes
but if your budget is really slim you can do a hybrid approach. If
you get high quality light stands and umbrellas you could start
with hot lights then replace them with monolights when your budget
allows.

Get quality equipment. Some kits come with cheap stamped steel
stands. I've always preferred Bogen stands. The lightweight start
at about $40. Ilike the 8' 3086 stands which are about $45.

You will prefer monolights, especially after you bake a portrait
subject or melt a still life under hot lights. Hot lights are
probably easier to learn with as it's a strictly WYSIWYG setup and
you can use your camera's meter effectively. Strobes are mostly
WYSIWYG with modeling lights but you will need to get a flash meter
to use them well. Visualizing strobes can be a bit tricky as you
have to mentally subtract ambient room light but it can actually be
an advantage as it gives more control.

WYSIWYG = what you see is what you get.

 

[pnoeric]

Hi all, I'm in a similar situation-- I've been having fun shooting friends and families but it's time to get some lighting; I can't always shoot them on the weekends in the sunshine so I have to shoot them in evenings (after work)... in their homes, where the lighting is just not working... and my camera's built-in flash makes everyone look awful

So I need some lighting that I can bring over to folks' houses and shoot them/the family parked on the living room couch, etc. I usually do a number of poses, like to get the kids crawling around and mom interacting with them, etc... so I can't spend a lot of time setting up each and every shot for just the right lighting.

I am trying to figure out if the answer is strobes or hot lights. I like the idea of strobes then I'd have to buy a light meter, and that makes everything more expensive.

Additionally, right now... I am using a less-than-optimal camera, a Canon S110, which won't let me adjust the f/stop or shutter speed, but I can do some basic corrections to the exposure (+ - 2 steps, I think).... so until I can upgrade the camera, with hot lights, I can at least use the built-in metering on the camera and go from there. I don't know that I could even figure out a way to meter for strobes with this camera, ugh. (That may force me to hot lights for now, period.)

And now a related question-- when I'm shooting I am constantly moving the models around in various poses (for example, arms up, arms down, leaning into the camera, etc.). Outdoors with a reflector, I can easily correct bad shadows as new poses are set by just having the model(s) tilt their heads, move an arm, whatever. With strobes, how do I know my lighting will be ok on each pose? Is it that I have enough coverage with the strobes that all shadows are softened enough that they don't make a big difference? Do I rely on modeling lights and turn them on between every pose?

Thanks for any tips/advice/help. This has become surprisingly complicated ;-)

best
Eric

Getting started on a budget is tough. Try to look at things long
term. It's penny wise and pound foolish to get things you have to
replace later on. Long term I think you're better off with strobes
but if your budget is really slim you can do a hybrid approach. If
you get high quality light stands and umbrellas you could start
with hot lights then replace them with monolights when your budget
allows.

Get quality equipment. Some kits come with cheap stamped steel
stands. I've always preferred Bogen stands. The lightweight start
at about $40. Ilike the 8' 3086 stands which are about $45.

You will prefer monolights, especially after you bake a portrait
subject or melt a still life under hot lights. Hot lights are
probably easier to learn with as it's a strictly WYSIWYG setup and
you can use your camera's meter effectively. Strobes are mostly
WYSIWYG with modeling lights but you will need to get a flash meter
to use them well. Visualizing strobes can be a bit tricky as you
have to mentally subtract ambient room light but it can actually be
an advantage as it gives more control.

--
Themepark: a full-service web application and design company
'great web sites, delicious corn dogs!'
http://themepark.com

 

[padeye99656]

You're better off sticking with hot lights with that camera. Generally you have to adjust the aperture to the lights but that's not possible. Some monolights like Alien Bees have a very wide range of adjustment so it's not impossible to use moolights with a point and shoot camera but it's very difficult.

The effect of model movement depends on the distance to the lights. The further away the lights are the less a bit of movement of the model matters. Sometimes you need to have the light source like an umbrella or softbox up close to soften shadows or accentuate falloff. In this cases a little movement toward or away from the light makes a bigger difference in illumination. Learn the inverse square rule and this will make perfect sense.

There are a lot of misconceptions about strobes. The harshness of light and shadows has only to do with the reflectors used. If I take a shot with a bare bulb strobe and a bare tungsten bulb at similar distances and exposures I'll get similar harsh shadows. Shoot both lights into an umbrella and you'll get similar effects.

All studio monolights have modeling lights that try to mimic the light pattern of the strobe. For the most part it's a tungsten bulb in the middle of a ring shaped flash tube. With better lights the modeling light is proportional to the flash power. Turn the flash down one stop and the voltage to the modeling light is cut a similar amount dimming it.

One reason that you may get harsher shadows with strobes is because you don't take into account ambient light. With hot lights all the ambient light that your eyes can see will contribute to the exposure. This helps fill in some of the shadows. With strobes if you have set a reasonably high shutter speed the ambient room light will have little or no effect on the exposure. As far as the camera is concerned you are in a dark room and only the strobe flash contributes to the exposure. If you aren't aware of this you'll wonder why the exposure doesn't look the same as the scene did to your eye. The way around this is to make sure there is no other light source than the modeling lights to fool your eye.

 

[Ashok Rai]

Matt,

I feel for you. I've been agonizing over this decision for weeks now. I decided to go with strobes based on advice from the Minolta forum and reading posts on this forum. I shoot pics of my kids and I wanted a home studio. I'm starting out with one strobe and a softbox. I got an Alien Bee B400, a heavy duty stand, a 4 foot octogon softbox, and a case for the light. This ran me about $441 with shipping. I have a set of 32" reflectors already. As far as learning the basics of lighting, I've been reading the archives on http://www.zuga.net and also a couple of books that I flipped through on lighting. Good luck, I know its a tough decision.

Ashok Rai
http://www.pbase.com/ashokrai

ps if you choose to go with strobes, and are really on a tight budget, you may want to check out ebay and the britek kits that are on there. There are some people on various forums that use them to start out with. You can search for posts on them.

I'm trying to learn the basics of lighting and have a basic question.
I'm looking at two kits, one is with two hot lights and two
umbrellas, the other is a basic strobe kit with two strobes.
The hot light kit is significantly cheaper and I'm on a limited
budget. Which would be better to learn the basics of lighting.

 

[Matt Baker]

Thanks for all the input!

I've been agonizing over this decision for a while. I think I'm leaning towards the hot light kit for a couple of reasons. I like the idea of being able to see exatly what the light is doing before I take the picture and I don't want to get in over my head to soon. At this point, I don't think I'd know a light meter if it hit me over the head .

If I buy the hot light kit, I want to make sure that it won't be totaly wasted when I do move on to strobes. How do I know if the kit is of good quality? I'm currently looking at an InterFit kit.

Matt

 

[TomPh]

Strobes have Model Light that help
to check shadow, light directions
on your model. Plus, using
strobe can avoid heating your
model while posing....
-TomP

Thanks for all the input!

I've been agonizing over this decision for a while. I think I'm
leaning towards the hot light kit for a couple of reasons. I like
the idea of being able to see exatly what the light is doing before
I take the picture and I don't want to get in over my head to soon.
At this point, I don't think I'd know a light meter if it hit me
over the head .

If I buy the hot light kit, I want to make sure that it won't be
totaly wasted when I do move on to strobes. How do I know if the
kit is of good quality? I'm currently looking at an InterFit kit.

Matt

 

[Ashok Rai]

Matt,

If your sold on a hot light kit (which many people aren't) look at http://www.photoflex.com . They claim that their lights don't get to hot. B&H has their kits for sale online. People seem to really like their softboxes from what I've read. You can search the forums for "photoflex starlite kit" and find a couple of threads discussing them. I was stuck between their "large" kit vs the Alien Bees (which is what I eventually picked).

Ashok

Thanks for all the input!

I've been agonizing over this decision for a while. I think I'm
leaning towards the hot light kit for a couple of reasons. I like
the idea of being able to see exatly what the light is doing before
I take the picture and I don't want to get in over my head to soon.
At this point, I don't think I'd know a light meter if it hit me
over the head .

If I buy the hot light kit, I want to make sure that it won't be
totaly wasted when I do move on to strobes. How do I know if the
kit is of good quality? I'm currently looking at an InterFit kit.

Matt

 

[pnoeric]

padeye, thanks for the clear, helpful message ...sounds like, for now, I should look into hot lights with stands, reflectors/softboxes etc. that can be carried over to strobes. I have no doubt that I'll be moving to strobes soon enough, when I get a better camera.

Yaaaaay I get to buy some new stuff ;-)

best
Eric

You're better off sticking with hot lights with that camera.
Generally you have to adjust the aperture to the lights but that's
not possible. Some monolights like Alien Bees have a very wide
range of adjustment so it's not impossible to use moolights with a
point and shoot camera but it's very difficult.

The effect of model movement depends on the distance to the lights.
The further away the lights are the less a bit of movement of the
model matters. Sometimes you need to have the light source like an
umbrella or softbox up close to soften shadows or accentuate
falloff. In this cases a little movement toward or away from the
light makes a bigger difference in illumination. Learn the inverse
square rule and this will make perfect sense.

There are a lot of misconceptions about strobes. The harshness of
light and shadows has only to do with the reflectors used. If I
take a shot with a bare bulb strobe and a bare tungsten bulb at
similar distances and exposures I'll get similar harsh shadows.
Shoot both lights into an umbrella and you'll get similar effects.

All studio monolights have modeling lights that try to mimic the
light pattern of the strobe. For the most part it's a tungsten
bulb in the middle of a ring shaped flash tube. With better lights
the modeling light is proportional to the flash power. Turn the
flash down one stop and the voltage to the modeling light is cut a
similar amount dimming it.

One reason that you may get harsher shadows with strobes is because
you don't take into account ambient light. With hot lights all the
ambient light that your eyes can see will contribute to the
exposure. This helps fill in some of the shadows. With strobes if
you have set a reasonably high shutter speed the ambient room light
will have little or no effect on the exposure. As far as the
camera is concerned you are in a dark room and only the strobe
flash contributes to the exposure. If you aren't aware of this
you'll wonder why the exposure doesn't look the same as the scene
did to your eye. The way around this is to make sure there is no
other light source than the modeling lights to fool your eye.

--
Themepark: a full-service web application and design company
'great web sites, delicious corn dogs!'
http://themepark.com

 

[pnoeric]

just want to add, thanks for tip; like Matt, after considering the options I'm opting for hot lights as well... I'm off to look at the Starlite kit too.

I haev one dumb question about strobes with modeling lights-- do you leave the modeling lights on all the time, and when the strobe triggers, it turns off the modeling light for that moment? That seems to make the most sense ..?

best
Eric

Ashok

Thanks for all the input!

I've been agonizing over this decision for a while. I think I'm
leaning towards the hot light kit for a couple of reasons. I like
the idea of being able to see exatly what the light is doing before
I take the picture and I don't want to get in over my head to soon.
At this point, I don't think I'd know a light meter if it hit me
over the head .

If I buy the hot light kit, I want to make sure that it won't be
totaly wasted when I do move on to strobes. How do I know if the
kit is of good quality? I'm currently looking at an InterFit kit.

Matt

--
Themepark: a full-service web application and design company
'great web sites, delicious corn dogs!'
http://themepark.com

 

[padeye99656]

I think my Novatron monolight leaves the modeling light on all the time. I'll check it this evening to make sure. With the Alien Bees you can switch between leaving the modeling light on or having it cycle. In cycle mode the modeling lamp is off until the capacitors are recharged as a visual indication when you can't see the ready light. Mind you the B400s recycle from full power in half a second so....

As far as the exposure goes the modeling lights turning off should have little or no effect on exposure. Yes, the exposure will be a mix of strobe and modeling light but the ratio is usually so wide that the modeling light makes no impact. The higher the shutter speed the less exposure you get from the hot portion of the monolight. That's an advantage of some digicams, you can take flash at 1/1000 or highe. In effect you're in a dark room with only flash illumination. Most medium format and large format can do that up to 1/500 while SLRs may have to shoot as slow as 1/60.

just want to add, thanks for tip; like Matt, after considering the
options I'm opting for hot lights as well... I'm off to look at the
Starlite kit too.

I haev one dumb question about strobes with modeling lights-- do
you leave the modeling lights on all the time, and when the strobe
triggers, it turns off the modeling light for that moment? That
seems to make the most sense ..?

best
Eric

 

[pnoeric]

I can understand how, since the flash is so bright, the hot part of the light (which isn't all that bright) doesn't make a big difference... but how does a higer shutter speed effectively "subtract" the hot light? Since light travels so fast, I'd think that no matter how quickly a shutter can open and close, there's still more than enough time for ANY light in the room to get in there ...no?

Eric

As far as the exposure goes the modeling lights turning off should
have little or no effect on exposure. Yes, the exposure will be a
mix of strobe and modeling light but the ratio is usually so wide
that the modeling light makes no impact. The higher the shutter
speed the less exposure you get from the hot portion of the
monolight. That's an advantage of some digicams, you can take
flash at 1/1000 or highe. In effect you're in a dark room with
only flash illumination. Most medium format and large format can
do that up to 1/500 while SLRs may have to shoot as slow as 1/60.

 

[padeye99656]

Remember that the duration of a flash pulse may only be 1/1000 of a second or less. You can very the shutter speed a lot and it will have no effect on the exposure until the shutter approaches the flash duration. Note: this does not apply to focal plane shutters, just digicams and leaf shutter film cameras. Ambient light exposure will vary in direct proportion to shutter speed if the aperture remains constant. This fact is used to advantage when mixing flash and ambient light for fill and other effects.

The term watt-seconds seems confusing but really isn't. One watt of power for one second duration is one joule of energy. Let's take say, 300 joules of power and charge come capacitors with it then dicharge that through a Xenon flash tube. You get a very bright burst of light that may last only 1/6000 of a second. You could take that same 300 joules of energy and put it through a 600 watt bulb. You'd have enough energy for a half second worth of light. We'll ignore differences in efficiency to keep it simple. In both cases the same amount of energy is turned into photos to tickle the CCD in your camera.

I can understand how, since the flash is so bright, the hot part of
the light (which isn't all that bright) doesn't make a big
difference... but how does a higer shutter speed effectively
"subtract" the hot light? Since light travels so fast, I'd think
that no matter how quickly a shutter can open and close, there's
still more than enough time for ANY light in the room to get in
there ...no?

Eric

 

[Amy Mcd]

I have a set of hot lights and I also have a G-2 and a 420ex flash. I am wondering what I should ....hear is the deal. I shoot mostly children and usually try to use as much natural light. I have a set of 3) 12inch smith victor hot light. I am not to happy with these...but are they workable for me or do I need to look at strobe. I saw what you said here about ambiet lighting. If I get a alien bee (i am looking at the biginner bee kit) it will not allow for natural light? What will happen to my photos, will they take on a colder apperance? I dont want to have to purchase new lights...but I will if I have to. My big question is do I just buy umbrellas for my hot lights and try to work with them and natural light, and get a different result. Or do I go to the Alien bees and then what will my results look like. You would have to look at my photos to see what I mean. I dont really want to take away the natural look for..... a boring sear portriat look. Please advise...I need to make a purchase...and it will be either umbrellas etc for the hot lights and work with the 420ex and natural light when avaliable or I buy the biginner bee set? http://www.pbase.com/photosbyamy I also was told that using an umbrella with my hotlights will cause a dounought shaped shadow..because they are 12inch round....but the salesperson then quickely tried to push me into another new light set at around $550. Was it just a sails pitch to get me to buy A new set and not just an umbrella????

Thanks amy

You're better off sticking with hot lights with that camera.
Generally you have to adjust the aperture to the lights but that's
not possible. Some monolights like Alien Bees have a very wide
range of adjustment so it's not impossible to use moolights with a
point and shoot camera but it's very difficult.

The effect of model movement depends on the distance to the lights.
The further away the lights are the less a bit of movement of the
model matters. Sometimes you need to have the light source like an
umbrella or softbox up close to soften shadows or accentuate
falloff. In this cases a little movement toward or away from the
light makes a bigger difference in illumination. Learn the inverse
square rule and this will make perfect sense.

There are a lot of misconceptions about strobes. The harshness of
light and shadows has only to do with the reflectors used. If I
take a shot with a bare bulb strobe and a bare tungsten bulb at
similar distances and exposures I'll get similar harsh shadows.
Shoot both lights into an umbrella and you'll get similar effects.

All studio monolights have modeling lights that try to mimic the
light pattern of the strobe. For the most part it's a tungsten
bulb in the middle of a ring shaped flash tube. With better lights
the modeling light is proportional to the flash power. Turn the
flash down one stop and the voltage to the modeling light is cut a
similar amount dimming it.

One reason that you may get harsher shadows with strobes is because
you don't take into account ambient light. With hot lights all the
ambient light that your eyes can see will contribute to the
exposure. This helps fill in some of the shadows. With strobes if
you have set a reasonably high shutter speed the ambient room light
will have little or no effect on the exposure. As far as the
camera is concerned you are in a dark room and only the strobe
flash contributes to the exposure. If you aren't aware of this
you'll wonder why the exposure doesn't look the same as the scene
did to your eye. The way around this is to make sure there is no
other light source than the modeling lights to fool your eye.

 

[Amy Mcd]

Padeye..i posted a question for you a little higher up in this post..please get back to me as soon as possible..thanks Amy http://www.pbase.com/photosbyamy

The term watt-seconds seems confusing but really isn't. One watt
of power for one second duration is one joule of energy. Let's
take say, 300 joules of power and charge come capacitors with it
then dicharge that through a Xenon flash tube. You get a very
bright burst of light that may last only 1/6000 of a second. You
could take that same 300 joules of energy and put it through a 600
watt bulb. You'd have enough energy for a half second worth of
light. We'll ignore differences in efficiency to keep it simple.
In both cases the same amount of energy is turned into photos to
tickle the CCD in your camera.

I can understand how, since the flash is so bright, the hot part of
the light (which isn't all that bright) doesn't make a big
difference... but how does a higer shutter speed effectively
"subtract" the hot light? Since light travels so fast, I'd think
that no matter how quickly a shutter can open and close, there's
still more than enough time for ANY light in the room to get in
there ...no?

Eric

 

[chi]

You'd be better off with one strobe and a 60" umbrella. Look at
the Alienbees B400 to get started. You can always add more lights
later and preserve your investment.

yep, strobes over hot lights. big big limitations to hot lights. expect
lots of fiddling with the right temperature (not daylight balanced so
you'll get yellow pics if u don't adjust properly). also models may
get burned or at the very least sweaty due to the hot temperatures.
also you need to shoot at slower shutter speeds (tripod mounted
camera a must).