Using the 17-55 for landscapes

I have been using the 17-55DX on my D200 for the last three years. The 17-55DX has a very shallow DOF much smaller than the prediction of any naive DoF calculator. Since people do not know that, they focus wrongly and then complain about the lens. BTW the new AF-S 24-70mm has exactly the same properties!
If I recall the math correctly, depth of field is a function of aperture, reproduction ratio and the tolerated diameter of the circle of confusion. As this last parameter gets smaller with increasing pixel density, so does the DOF. However, this is independent from the lens design. A kit lens at 18mm f5.6 has the same DOF as the 17-55 at 18mm and f5.6. There is no mathematical reason why it shouldn't.
 
If I recall the math correctly, depth of field is a function of aperture, reproduction ratio and the tolerated diameter of the circle of confusion. As this last parameter gets smaller with increasing pixel density, so does the DOF. However, this is independent from the lens design. A kit lens at 18mm f5.6 has the same DOF as the 17-55 at 18mm and f5.6. There is no mathematical reason why it shouldn't.
You may be remembering the math correctly, but you may not be remembering that the usual math for depth of field calculation is based on a simple model in which the lens has a flat focal plane (see http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm , for example). As has been noted in many posts on this forum, the 17-55 does not have this property, but has a more complex curved surface of focus. So I don't think the normal math applies, and DOF for the 17-55 will, in fact, be different that predicted by the usual math. I don't know how closely the properties of the 18-55 mirror those of the 17-55, but since the kit lens is a simpler design, I doubt it has the same focal surface properties.

Ray
 
At 45mm and f/4, it seems quite a bit better than my 18-200. Of course, the 18-200 is probably better at F/L's greater than 55mm.



--
JF

 
here:
http://www.pbase.com/marcoraugei/iceland

IMO, all the commonly heard bashing of this lens for landscapes is bordering on the ridiculous. Sure, it really shines as a PJ lens, but it ain't no bad landscape lens either! :-)

Marco.
 
I agree, Marco. Nice series - when were you there? I see the titles say "2009," but I was curious about the season, as Iceland is on my list of "someday" photographic destinations.

Ray
 
June - great time to be there, with near 24h of daily sunlight.
Marco.
 
My first copy of this lens was terrible, as well as the second copy. They were front focusing badly out of the box. The third copy was excellent.

I started using the lens for some landscapes and scenics using DOF but the images weren't very sharp. I then started focusing at infinity and the lens performed very well. If your lens doesn't show sharp images when focusing at infinity then send it in for an adjustment.

Alll handheld shots focused at infinity. I prefer focusing on something in the distance that will achieve this.

40mm f8



23mm f9



17mm f8



22mm f9



31mm f7.1



31mm f4.5



55mm f2.8 ;)



I still have the 17-55 but now prefer the 24-70 used with a D3. My wife now uses the 17-55 DX and here is a shot from her in Kauai.

19mm f10 handheld



cheers,

Ray
 
Yes it is affected by diffraction, but you need to take a look at Kev's work before making such a blanket statement. The talent and expertise of the photographer can outweigh the limitations of the equipment with a given process or technique.
There is no way around diffraction. I've seen his work, and I'm not critizising it. But you can use all the technique you want, your shot at f/11 will be sharper than the one at f/22 (assuming you're using a decent lens), particularly if you're using a DX body.
I'm not arguing that. What I am stipulating to is your assertion that his work is not sharp. Yes, given a proper loupe or microscope, or a sufficiently enlarged image, a subject shot at F/11 and F/22 will look different, both by way of DoF and because of diffraction. Physics satisfied.

What you fail to understand is the simple difference between instantaneous and blindingly fast. The objective here is "good enough".
I don't fail to understand anything. In fact, I mentioned the "good enough" aspect a few posts up. Read my posts before stating that I'm failing to understand something that is quite obvious.
If someone pays me for the print or asks for a copy, why should I care about how it was executed - the inquirer certainly does not. They like it, and that's all that matters.

Your goals are obviously different...
I have been studying his technique and I have been able to reproduce the sharpness he gets at F/16 - F/22 knowing full well that CoC is larger than optimal.
Well, why shouldn't you be able to reproduce the sharpness he gets?
I've seen quite a few people on DPR that can't take a top of the line lens a get a decent image with it to save their life. 99% of all issues start behind the camera.

Since you are hung up on numbers, Kev used a 105mm Micro Nikkor, and so did I.
Your're quite aggressive, given you haven't even understood my main point. Which was: At these apertures, differences between lenses are becoming smaller and smaller. I was not saying Kev's work isn't sharp. What I did say is that it wasn't as sharp as it could be, with which you evidently agree. I've never stated that it was not sharp enough.

And actually, the fact that you're calling me a measurebator without even having seen my work bothers me tremendously. Not to mention that you're getting personal about it. Stop it.
 
excuse me,but what do you mean by switching from 'DOF' TO FOCUS TO INFINITY???
--
DELMAN2
Instead of using DOF charts and its suggested distance and focusing you just simply focus on something at a distance in order to reach infinity on the lens or close too, then recompose and fire away. You still need to stop down enough to achieve the DOF you want for the shot.

If you foucs with the shutter its going to screw this up so you go to manual AF and leave it be or use AF-ON.

--
Ray
 
Yes it is affected by diffraction, but you need to take a look at Kev's work before making such a blanket statement. The talent and expertise of the photographer can outweigh the limitations of the equipment with a given process or technique.
There is no way around diffraction. I've seen his work, and I'm not critizising it. But you can use all the technique you want, your shot at f/11 will be sharper than the one at f/22 (assuming you're using a decent lens), particularly if you're using a DX body.
I'm not arguing that. What I am stipulating to is your assertion that his work is not sharp. Yes, given a proper loupe or microscope, or a sufficiently enlarged image, a subject shot at F/11 and F/22 will look different, both by way of DoF and because of diffraction. Physics satisfied.

What you fail to understand is the simple difference between instantaneous and blindingly fast. The objective here is "good enough".
I don't fail to understand anything. In fact, I mentioned the "good enough" aspect a few posts up. Read my posts before stating that I'm failing to understand something that is quite obvious.
I have read your posts. "sharp enough" normally would translate. The implication in the context of what you originally wrote (see above) was not that.

BTW, your comment was already embedded in the thread, so, Yes I have read it several times and given thought to it. I have also read the running debates you and Kevin have had over acuity and other topics, so I expected this would be yet another one in the making.
If someone pays me for the print or asks for a copy, why should I care about how it was executed - the inquirer certainly does not. They like it, and that's all that matters.

Your goals are obviously different...
I have been studying his technique and I have been able to reproduce the sharpness he gets at F/16 - F/22 knowing full well that CoC is larger than optimal.
Well, why shouldn't you be able to reproduce the sharpness he gets?
I've seen quite a few people on DPR that can't take a top of the line lens a get a decent image with it to save their life. 99% of all issues start behind the camera.

Since you are hung up on numbers, Kev used a 105mm Micro Nikkor, and so did I.
Your're quite aggressive, given you haven't even understood my main point. Which was: At these apertures, differences between lenses are becoming smaller and smaller. I was not saying Kev's work isn't sharp. What I did say is that it wasn't as sharp as it could be, with which you evidently agree. I've never stated that it was not sharp enough.
Here the clarification is much better than the original (see above). I do agree with the premise that imaging done that way is not as sharp as it could be. However, the fact that it is not, does not lessen the viability of the image and may in fact be a positive as to the intended goal of the photographer.

The other point I was trying to make in the early part of this thread was there are techniques that compensate for physics to the end game that it's good enough for the human eye.

My wife complains about HD movies as being too sharp, and animation done that way is - to her - unwatchable. Her complaint is not the only time I've heard it. There are a fair number of people that do not want, or like, razor sharp pictures. To them it takes away from the viewing experience.

IMO, there is a time and place for pushing the limit on resolution and much of what we image as photographers does not have to cut your finger when you look at it. This is not one of those times...
And actually, the fact that you're calling me a measurebator without even having seen my work bothers me tremendously. Not to mention that you're getting personal about it. Stop it.
You assume I did not see your work. I have seen what was has been made available. Some of it's very nice, but overall I don't find it compelling. I'm am sure it means a lot to you and that's fine. I'm not going to throw stones at it, as there are people who don't care for what I take pictures of either. But then photography is a very subjective pursuit, where one person's treasure and meaning are lost on another due to circumstances, interests and personal goals.

As to the "measurebater" comment. No, I did not call you a measurebater. If I thought you were, I would have said so. I said you were hung up on the numbers. Measurebaters treat gear and test results like a religion. There is a difference, and neither was a part of this side discussion. Now you are putting words in my mouth.

I Think we've beaten this horse enough - especially since we are far off topic from the OP.
 
You assume I did not see your work. I have seen what was has been made available. Some of it's very nice, but overall I don't find it compelling.
After viewing how many photographs did you come to that overall conclusion? Just wondering.
 
The 17-55 2.8 Nikkor has been my walk around lens for some time.

Many of my sunset and sunrise shots are with this lens as is wild monkeys around my place.
--
Jon in Thailand

http://www.flickr.com/photos/af2899/
.
 
I took a look at your gallery - lots of nice shots!

I also have used the 17-55 for many sunset and sunrise photos. I seem to have more of a problem with flare when the sun is maybe 60 degrees to the side of the frame than I do when the sun is actually in the frame. But yes, even though I have seen some flare problems, it's definitely possible to get a great sunrise/ sunset shot with this lens.

Ray
 
I don't have the 17-55 but after looking at some landscape which very beautiful now looks a good time though the FL does not interest me much. I was using a 24-70 and D700 na dnever felt landscape were it's forte. The 17-55 distorts much less surely something that is an advantage for nature.

Mike
 
I don't have the 17-55 but after looking at some landscapes which does appear very beautiful, now looks a good time to buy one, though the FL does not really interest me much. I was using a 24-70 and D700 and never felt landscape were it's forte. The 17-55 distorts much less and the 17mm on DX will help give more wide scape view, surely something that is an advantage for nature.

Mike
 
Ver nice samples, Ray. I will test your theory. When I mount the 17-55 maybe I'll switch to single-point AF and then "point" at something that gives "infinity" focus. Kind of like spot metering.

--
JF

 
Ver nice samples, Ray. I will test your theory. When I mount the 17-55 maybe I'll switch to single-point AF and then "point" at something that gives "infinity" focus. Kind of like spot metering.

--
JF

Give it a shot JF I think you will be surprised. Just stop down enough to get your near objects sharp and your good to go.

Another method is something I used when I owned the 12-24 Nikon was to focus at a distant object at the long end and lock focus and then dezoom to where you want it recompose and fire away.

--
Ray
 

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