A frank discussion on the pros and cons of DSLR systems.

travelinbri_74

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I am an avid traveler and love to photograph, however, when I am landlocked (as I have been for the past 2 years) I look through my gear and think about what needs upgrading for when I take off next. This May or June my camera equipment comes up, and since it has been a number of years since I have upgraded, all brands are on the table.

Now there will always be fanboys, but in the Open Forum I think it would be nice if we could try to sum up the pros and cons of the big DSLR systems (Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Pentax). The whole system, assuming one will stick with it and continue to upgrade.

Your thoughts are always appreciated, as about 95% of you have more experience than I do.

Canon:

Pros:

A big player so no question that bodies and lenses will be upgraded regularly with the latest and greatest.

Great sensors: Say what you will, but Canon makes high MP sensors that turn out great images with fantastic high ISO capabilities.

A huge (and growing) assortment of lenses, which means there are both quality primes and quality zooms to be had on the Luxury level and below as well.

Cons:

Consistently sabotage their low end lines to keep people buying into their top end cameras (something we see little of from almost every other company).
Old AF was dated, and new AF packages seem to come with gliches.
Serious weather-sealing only available in their top end packages.

Nikon:

Pros:

Also a big player so no question that bodies and lenses will be upgraded regularly with the latest and greatest.

Great sensors: While they haven't "kept up" with Canon on MP count, they have worked hard to put out low noise images and maintain a "quality not quantity" mindset.

A huge (and growing) assortment of lenses, there recent 2.8 zooms have set a standard in the nikon-canon debate: they excel with the 2.8 zooms but have not made lighter f4 zooms or caught up to canon on primes.

They quickly move top end mechanics (AF, Duel Card holders, weatherproofing) into their lower end bodies.
Ergonomics

Cons:
Except for the 8,000$ range, they have not yet put out larger MP sensors.

They do not have the range of primes or f4 zooms that Canon does, their zooms are expensive, which means there is little opportunity within the NIKON lineup to go FF and then buy cheap (the 24-120 is unacceptable)

Sony:
Pros:
High Resolution large MP sensors that put out great images at low ISOs

Most affordable FF bodies, and they keep putting out crop bodies with a ton of extras (including in body IS)

Great Zeiss lenses (although certainly less of a choice than more established lines)
Ergonomics

Cons:
Unacceptable noise at higher ISOs
Still building the lens lineup
No video or live-view
High end Zeiss lenses are not weather sealed (despite expense)

Olympus:
Pros:
Some of the smallest and most affordable cameras on the market (620)

Their "pro" body is the same price as the prosumer bodies of other manufacturers (E-3 debuted around 1,500) and has a "class leading" build.

Fantastic zooms (7-14, 14-35, 35-100, 12-60, 50-200) that are fantastic quality glass and weathersealed.
In body IS.

Cons:

Upgraded less often (the E-3 is now considerably lagging behind other top end offerings)

4/3 system leaves no chance for FF in the near future (at least with the existing lens lineup)

Not a huge Native prime selection (although the panasonic 25 is supposed to be great).

No high MP offerings, no recent upgrade to the top model, although there have been two versions of the m4/3s Ep system, making one wonder if all the emphasis will now be put on that lineup.

Pentax:
Pros:
Great small strong body with all the extras at an affordable price

Fantastic primes (not only the classic limiteds, but also the digital only pancake limited)

Some of the new bodies (like the K-x) are getting better and better image quality (the K-7 apparently suffers)
In body IS.

Cons:
IQ isn't quite where the class leaders are yet.
No FF body (yet)
The zooms leave something to be desired, and yet are priced like top quality.
Few third party lens options.

I am sure I am missing a million things, but would love to hear more input from those of you who may have used these systems. I am tired and probably forgetting a ton of stuff. If I were to make my decision now, it would be a nikon D700 probably (because I have heard too many times about 5Diis not being weatherproof enough), but for travel each lineup has its pluses and minuses, and f the K-7 had a better sensor, or an Olympus E-5 were to come out before I left, or Sony put out another great camera body with slightly better noise control, who knows if I would try my hands at a non canon-nikon brand (I am currently a canon man).
 
Please correct your "con" regarding Sony DSLR. Both the 3XX and 5XX series have live-view.
--
Warning: Do not stare into laser with remaining eye!
 
Your thoughts are always appreciated, as about 95% of you have more experience than I do.
The question is, what is your experience, have you tried all of these brands? Or is this a summary of other reviewer's conclusions of limited models?

Just to correct a couple of your Olympus comments since that's the brand I know the most:
Olympus:
Cons:

Upgraded less often (the E-3 is now considerably lagging behind other top end offerings)
Other brands upgrade too often, just to give you one or two new features, another megapixel, or a fraction of a second faster operation (the two major brands just try to outdo each other rather than making a camera that will work for you for years).
4/3 system leaves no chance for FF in the near future (at least with the existing lens lineup)
FourThirds and MicroFourThirds are already full frame systems...if you use a FourThirds lens on a FourThirds camera you are using the entire lens, not a crop. The only time there is a crop is when you use a legacy/film lens.
Not a huge Native prime selection (although the panasonic 25 is supposed to be great).
Unlike other brands, FourThirds is a format that is used by several companies, in addition to Olympus and Panasonic there's also Leica. As a FourThirds user you aren't limited to the brand of body you buy, unlike say Nikon and Canon (I didn't mention third party companies like Sigma since they make lenses for all the companies you've listed).
No high MP offerings,
Other brands are going nuts just to try to outdo each other by packing more pixels on an already crowded sensor. As someone who used to do poster sized prints from 2mp, there is a point where more megapixels are too many (and that point was passed a long time ago).
no recent upgrade to the top model,
You already mentioned that.
although there have been two versions of the m4/3s Ep system, making one wonder if all the emphasis will now be put on that lineup.
Olympus has released FourThirds bodies since m4/3 cameras have come out!
I am tired and probably forgetting a ton of stuff.
Then why post this then...if you expect people to take your comments seriously, you don't say this, or even post it if you're half asleep.
who knows if I would try my hands at a non canon-nikon brand (I am currently a canon man).
So you haven't tried the other cameras? Then where is your knowledge from?
 
I suppose the second post has some deserved comments. To poster one, you're right, I was thinking of their FF cameras--which do not. To poster 2, I was putting out my thoughts about their bodies from reading reviews and postings, so I could most certainly be wrong--and want to be pointed out for just that reason. That being said, some of your points are nitpicking. My point was not to slam any brand, but to try and figure out pros and cons. One cannot say that a camera that uses a 12-60 lens that translates into a 24-120 lens is FF in my honest opinion. But perhaps I should have just said no large sensor format if that was unappealing.

I OWN canon equipment, I have used some of the others, but not extensively. I have played around with all of them. And where I am wrong, or where other lineups have more or less advantages, please point them out. It was the point of the post.

Cheers,

-TBri
 
In truth, all of the brands are somewhat equivalent in general use. It would help to look more at what you want to focus on. I tend to look more at glass than bodies, as body upgrades never got me that much more. New lenses are where I've seen the big leaps in capability.

For example... if you like UWA, Nikon has the 14-24, and Olympus has the 7-14. Both are pretty much the class of their field.

Long telephoto - Canon still has the edge there from what I've seen, though if you really want to go the FF route, you'll be lugging some pretty large glass. Nikon runs a close second. Nice glass, if you have the money.

Short primes - the Pentax DA*'s are terrific.

I won't rave endlessly about the quality of the Olympus glass, other than to say that the reputation has been earned. Yes, I have the Pana/Leica 25 1.4, and it has exquisite rendering qualities.

High MP count - does that really matter any more? Most photo display is electronic these days, where resolution requirements are laughably low, and 12-14mp more than fills an 8x10 print and does well at 11x17. Unless you plan on posting snapshots on a billboard near your house, do you really want 24+mp? The bodies are large, the files are large, and unless you're printing huge, you'll be tossing a lot of those pixels.

High ISO - contentious issue. I still find that below 800 is where I stay, that's where the best IQ is. You might have different needs.

I settled on Olympus a few years ago, largely for the very good optics. Hard to beat the better ZD lenses - their zooms exceed most other makers primes. Despite the fact that my E3 hasn't been updated, it still turns in terrific images, and still shrugs off incliment weather. It also tends to be a more compact system, especially with the longer lenses. Oh, and the most effective dust remover. In five years of using Olympus dslr's, I've never seen so much as a speck of dust. Downside is that they aren't as good at limiting DOF as the FF systems, but I find the PL25 1.4 limits it as much as I want.

A couple you might want to give a quick look for travel use, are the small micro 4/3 bodies: the Olympus EP2 and Panasonic GF1. If you travel a lot, these tiny little bodies are a real asset. Mainly, they are a lot thinner than a dslr, yet can still deliver dslr image quality. Lens choice is a bit limited, though the EP2 can AF all regular 4/3 glass and the GF1 can AF some of it if you don't mind a bit of additional bulk. Downside of the little bodies is that they can be clumsy handling with long fast glass, so they're really more like rangefinders than dslrs - best with shorter focal lengths for situations where portability and a low profile are desired.

I've had a ball with my EP1. Just plain fun, and no one notices that you have it.
 
Not sure what the purpose of this thread is as everyone will have their own opinion based on their needs and experiences. If the goal is to perform a true comparison at the brand level, then you should identify the brand attributes you want to evaluate and a rating system. If you're solely looking for opinions, you will get plenty of them but you can also get them from reviewing the different forums here. For the most part, people will be loyal to whatever brand they have since they're already invested in that brand.
 
I suppose my point was there are some things that brands do better than others. Pentax puts out the smallest weatherproof bodies. Nikon and Sony have the toughest non-pro level FF bodies, Olympus puts out great quality reasonably priced weatherproof zooms. I was trying to list the pros and cons that are less opinion based. And yes, this is selfishly to help me make my choice as I put together my top notch travel system. ;D
 
--

The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'
  • Rayna Butler
 
--

The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'
  • Rayna Butler
I thought it was all pretty constructive and fair until your attempt to de-rail things. It's a shame you couldn't think of something more positive to contribute.
--
Tony
667....Neighbour of the beast....Form is temporary, glass is permanent.
 
OMG...just buy a camera and be done with it. All DSLRs now days range from good to excellent. Have an Olympus E3 and a Nikon D300s - both excellent. Spend less time thinking about it and more just shooting photos.
 
4/3 system leaves no chance for FF in the near future (at least with the existing lens lineup)
FourThirds and MicroFourThirds are already full frame systems...if you use a FourThirds lens on a FourThirds camera you are using the entire lens, not a crop. The only time there is a crop is when you use a legacy/film lens.
Is this the envy of the have-nots? No matter how much I like the Olympus cameras (small, light, good feature set, fantastic lenses): Unfortunately it is NOT a full-frame system (and therefore a system I would not buy into): You can try to bend it as far as you want, as long as you want, but the common understanding is: A full-frame digital camera is one that has a 24x36mm sensor (full size compared to the 35mm film format). Putting an "APS-C" lens onto a Canon 50D does not make the camera full-frame.

Technical differences aside (number of pixels you can fit, noise behavior, dynamic range etc.), there are some artistic key characteristics of a full-frame system that FourThirds unfortunately will never reach:
  • Depth of field: The bigger the sensor, the less depth of field you get. I would consider (shallow, or well-controlled) depth of field as one of the prime elements of composition for the pictures I take - and, technical quality of the images aside, an APS-C camera already has too much depth of field, requiring me to further open up the aperture, moving away from the optimum performance of the lens, and being more at the mercy of the precision of the AF system. The FourThirds sensor is even smaller...
  • Aspect ratio: A full-frame camera has a 3:2 aspect ratio; it does not create pictures like on TV (4:3).
All merits of FourThirds aside, full-frame it is not.

--
Georg
-

Minolta 9000, 9xi, 5D, Sony A700. 17-35mm f2.8-4, 50mm f1.4, 24-105mm, 70-300mm G, 100-300mm APO, 500mm f8 Reflex. Metz 45CL-4 digital, Sony HVL-42
 
Might be opening up a can of worms...could be starting another definition of "full frame" debate yet again...
4/3 system leaves no chance for FF in the near future (at least with the existing lens lineup)
FourThirds and MicroFourThirds are already full frame systems...if you use a FourThirds lens on a FourThirds camera you are using the entire lens, not a crop. The only time there is a crop is when you use a legacy/film lens.
Is this the envy of the have-nots? No matter how much I like the Olympus cameras (small, light, good feature set, fantastic lenses): Unfortunately it is NOT a full-frame system (and therefore a system I would not buy into): You can try to bend it as far as you want, as long as you want, but the common understanding is: A full-frame digital camera is one that has a 24x36mm sensor (full size compared to the 35mm film format). Putting an "APS-C" lens onto a Canon 50D does not make the camera full-frame.
 
Is this the envy of the have-nots? No matter how much I like the Olympus cameras (small, light, good feature set, fantastic lenses): Unfortunately it is NOT a full-frame system (and therefore a system I would not buy into): You can try to bend it as far as you want, as long as you want, but the common understanding is: A full-frame digital camera is one that has a 24x36mm sensor (full size compared to the 35mm film format). Putting an "APS-C" lens onto a Canon 50D does not make the camera full-frame.

Technical differences aside (number of pixels you can fit, noise behavior, dynamic range etc.), there are some artistic key characteristics of a full-frame system that FourThirds unfortunately will never reach:
  • Depth of field: The bigger the sensor, the less depth of field you get. I would consider (shallow, or well-controlled) depth of field as one of the prime elements of composition for the pictures I take - and, technical quality of the images aside, an APS-C camera already has too much depth of field, requiring me to further open up the aperture, moving away from the optimum performance of the lens, and being more at the mercy of the precision of the AF system. The FourThirds sensor is even smaller...
  • Aspect ratio: A full-frame camera has a 3:2 aspect ratio; it does not create pictures like on TV (4:3).
All merits of FourThirds aside, full-frame it is not.
35mm FF is only one of many sizes of full frame sensors.

As it happens . . . 35mm FF is just the most popular size!

It is you clearly who doesn't understand what 'full frame' really is.

Proof is in the pudding in your last two sentences.

Sorry dude . . .

--
J. D.
Colorado
 
35mm FF is only one of many sizes of full frame sensors.
As it happens . . . 35mm FF is just the most popular size!
It is you clearly who doesn't understand what 'full frame' really is.
Proof is in the pudding in your last two sentences.

Sorry dude . . .

--
J. D.
Colorado
J. D., you certainly are correct here, semantically.

Semantical correctness however does not necessarily translate into common understanding. All I am postulating here is that people, when they talk about "what is full frame", should adhere to commonly understood definitions (even though, technically, the term "full-frame" covers a wider array of devices).

Try this in real life: Go to a store and tell the salesperson that you want to buy a full-frame DSLR. Will you be shown an Olympus? Will you be shown a Pentax? Will you be shown a Nikon D90 with a "DX" (APS-C) lens because, with respect to this lens, the D90 has a full-frame sensor?

Chances are slim. It is much more likely that you will be presented some models by Nikon, Canon and Sony - because their higher-end models are the ones commonly referred to as "full-frame".

Following the letter of the word, you could say that all P&S cameras are full-frame, too, because the sensor uses the full image circle of the lens. You still would be semantically correct.

Your case is like telling the waiter in a U.S. restaurant that their menu is wrong: The French word "Entrée" does not translate into "Main Course", but "Appetizer". You are semantically correct, but still, when you order the "Entrée", you will get a main course.

No need to be sorry, I know what I'm talking about!

--
Georg
-

Minolta 9000, 9xi, 5D, Sony A700. 17-35mm f2.8-4, 50mm f1.4, 24-105mm, 70-300mm G, 100-300mm APO, 500mm f8 Reflex. Metz 45CL-4 digital, Sony HVL-42
 
Would love to get back to the pros and cons of different brands, if you'd prefer we call them large sensor possibilities, that is fine with me. I agree with the above that the argument has fallen into semantics and there is a widely approved of definition of Full Frame in the DSLR world.
 
One cannot say that a camera that uses a 12-60 lens that translates into a 24-120 lens is FF in my honest opinion.
All your post does is reproduce common falacies about the 4/3 system.

The 12-60 is 12-60...if you want to 'translate' that to 24-120 then
realize that it is simply done for the convenience of discussion.

There is no 'cropping' going on as with Nikon and Canon's smaller
sensor cameras when used with a lens designed for their larger sensor.

Olympus cameras are 'full frame' in their way. You need to dig deeper
and without prejudice to understand what Olympus is and does.

--
Keep your lens clean and your mind open.
http://www.pbase.com/peterb/

 

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