Any SERIOUS digital macro w D30/60? / ethics ;-)

[Larry H. Smith]

I refer to work such as Mike S.'s recent "dragonfly" post as an example:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=3256462

I know that this was a D(30, I think) shot, ...but have a more specific question:

If you are attempting to control precisely which whiskers (near-side or far-side) on the dragonfly are sharp, or are attempting to retain foreground detail as much as possible,while showing a certain degree of wing-vein detail as the wing recedes into the background( i.e. control depth-of-field), how the heck can you KNOW(SEE!) what you are doing, given the viewfinder limitations of these cameras?

I want to know whether this was one shot that "happened to work", out of a pile of attempts, or is it the direct result of methodical planning-and-execution.

"Scatter-gunning" with the hope that the camera will "luckily" AF JUST-SO, giving the image that you envision is not my idea of the type of control I want.

I know that the easy answer is "get a "pro" level camera, ...that's why I'm waiting on the 1DS. But I'm asking this to learn just what the capabilities of the D30/60-level cameras really are.
In any case, ...great shot, Mike

Now to the "ethics" part of the post:

I can't figure out whether my tongue is in-my-cheek on this one or not ;-0, ...I want to not -think-about-it, but it DID occur to me, so I'll raise the issue and see if anyone has any thoughts.

In the owner's manual for my G1, there is a "warning" not to use the flash closer than a certain distance to infants (and I would imagine, pets) to avoid possible eye-damage.

Seems to me this raises an issue for those of us who try to maintain respect for the rights/welfare of the other creatures we impact with our activities.

A dragonfly (for example) has relatively HUGE(or "numerous" eyes) which are designed for fairly close prey-recognition. this would imply that any extremely bright and CLOSE light would be well focussed, and possibly thereby do maximum damage to the eyes. The eyes upon-which the insect depends for it's nutrition, i.e., survival. The eyes without lids (which would not react quickly-enough to protect against E.F., in any case).
Woah, too much responsibility!

"Hi little bug. What a pretty and interesting part of nature YOU are! Would you mind posing for a photo so I can add it to my collection? Thank, you . On 3 now, ...1,..2,..FLASH!!!

Stop screaming! ...what's the matter? Oh, you're blind now? Uh-oh, ...sorry 'bout that. Well, gotta go now.
Oh look! Here's ANOTHER pretty little bug.

I need to take a walk, and think this through. (I know, I know, ...watch out for ants !)

Larry

 

[Michael Salzlechner]

Larry

not much guessing here

The viewfinder will perfectly show you where the focus is. At f2.8 the DOF is almost non existant and you can place the plane of focus perfectly.

Focussing btw is done manually (no AF) by moving the camera not using the focus ring on the lens which makes adjusting focus somewhat easier (IMHO anyway)

The shot i posted was a quick test of my new macro lens. I went outside took one shot that was it.

The 1D will not help you get better macro pictures in any way. For macro i would probably choose a D60 over a 1D for the added resolution.

As far as flash goes you dont nessecarily need much flash and for things such as dragon flies you can certainly take longer exposures without flash if you are on a tripod. Interestingly they dont even twitch when the flash goes off but i dont know what the effect of flash is on them.

He is still flying around so it doesnt seem he is blind (yet anyway)

--
Michael Salzlechner
StarZen Digital Imaging
http://www.starzen.com/imaging

 

[Michael Salzlechner]

Larry

Here is another one i took at the same time and if you look you can see the DOF just barely covers the side of the fly



BTW they where taken with D30, 100 2.8 Macro and 550 EX off camera with ST-E2

Now tomorrow i will be heading out to get some nice butterfly pictures.

--
Michael Salzlechner
StarZen Digital Imaging
http://www.starzen.com/imaging

 

[Phillips40]

Larry,

Your question below can be summarized "When shooting macro, how do I know what will or will not be in focus?"

The answer is that there is a depth of field (DOF) preview button below the lens release button on the D30/60 that closes down the aperture and shows you exactly what will be in focus. From there you'll know whether to modify your aprerture accordingly to control DOF.

--
Frank Phillips
http://www.digicaminfo.com

...how the heck can
you KNOW(SEE!) what you are doing, given the viewfinder limitations
of these cameras?

Larry

 

[DonCohen]

Larry,

As Michael explained, an SLR, especially when you hit the depth of field preview button, will show you what is/isn't in focus, which can be of great help. As he indicated, Autofocus is not useful with most macro shooting, so that's not an issue.

I've got some macro work done with the D30/100/f2.8 with extension tubes here, along with a photo of the set-up:

http://www.dlcphotography.net/Macro/MacroFrameSet.htm

Here's a sample:



This is the body of a "daddy long-legs spider."

As for eye damage from flash:

I'm an Ophthalmologist, and have never seen/read/heard anywhere about potential eye damage to humans, baby or otherwise, from photographic flash. When we do eye exams, we use lights of greater intensity, for longer durations, and damage isn't an issue. I imagine the manual entry came from a lawyer, rather than a physician.

I'm not a Vet, so can't speak knowledgeably about whether there is potential for eye damage to animals eyes, vertebrate or otherwise, although I'd be inclined to doubt it if I had to speculate.

Hope this helps.

Don
http://www.dlcphotography.net

 

[Larry H. Smith]

Larry

not much guessing here

The viewfinder will perfectly show you where the focus is. At f2.8
the DOF is almost non existant and you can place the plane of focus
perfectly.

Focussing btw is done manually (no AF) by moving the camera not
using the focus ring on the lens which makes adjusting focus
somewhat easier (IMHO anyway)

I agree, ...I intend to use a focussing-rail.

The shot i posted was a quick test of my new macro lens. I went
outside took one shot that was it.

Alright, 100% success-ratio for the session ;-)

The 1D will not help you get better macro pictures in any way. For
macro i would probably choose a D60 over a 1D for the added
resolution.

This comment surprizes me, ...particularly the "in any way" part :-0

Do you not-think that any of the interchangeable screens would offer a better MF capability?

As far as flash goes you dont nessecarily need much flash and for
things such as dragon flies you can certainly take longer exposures
without flash if you are on a tripod. Interestingly they dont even
twitch when the flash goes off but i dont know what the effect of
flash is on them.

He is still flying around so it doesnt seem he is blind (yet anyway)

He's probably using a seeing-eye gnat!

BTW love the shot of your fly, too ;-)

Larry

 

[Sven Bernert]

The answer is that there is a depth of field (DOF) preview button
below the lens release button on the D30/60 that closes down the
aperture and shows you exactly what will be in focus. From there
you'll know whether to modify your aprerture accordingly to control
DOF.

The smaller the aperture is the darker the preview in the viewfinder gets. For everything other than animals (flowers etc.) a small mag light helps with dark DOF previews.
Sven

 

[Tom O'Neil]

No dragonflies were hurt or blinded in production of the following image, but in looking at the other shot maybe it would have been worthwhile to try flash. No sharpening or color enhancement applied, just a JPG conversion from raw. This is with a 1D, not sure offhand which lens this is with since I tried several, I'll guess 135mm with a 25mm tube, handheld.

The 1D will not help you get better macro pictures in any way. For
macro i would probably choose a D60 over a 1D for the added
resolution.

I'll concede that to some extent, although being able to pick one of 45 reliable focusing points when shooting handheld eliminates the "in any way" part of that statement, IMHO. But I didn't get a 1D to take bug shots, the opportunity just presented itself.

 

[Larry H. Smith]

Thanks for responding Frank,

But I'm not unfamiliar with the DOF stop-down button or it's use.

It's showing you "exactly what will be in-focus" is dependent upon your being able to SEE what it is showing you.

Several threads which have lamented the visibility through the D30/60 viewfinders (much less on the lcd-review) caused me to wonder about this, ...thus my question.

Larry

Your question below can be summarized "When shooting macro, how do
I know what will or will not be in focus?"

The answer is that there is a depth of field (DOF) preview button
below the lens release button on the D30/60 that closes down the
aperture and shows you exactly what will be in focus. From there
you'll know whether to modify your aprerture accordingly to control
DOF.

--
Frank Phillips
http://www.digicaminfo.com

...how the heck can
you KNOW(SEE!) what you are doing, given the viewfinder limitations
of these cameras?

Larry

 

[Ted B.47613]

I just use the smallest aperture I can, with the available light, that will give me a motion-freezing shutter speed. Then I manually focus on that part of the subject that is slightly in front of what I want to be in focus. 1/3 in front and 2/3 behind gets me decent shots. But it can be tricky quite often.

The DOF preview button does not always work with off-brand lenses, it seems (I could be mistaken), and if your shooting aperture is small, may not provide enough light to see what is and is not in focus, anyway.

Some have mentioned what I'll call 'focus bracketing', and combining images in Photoshop, to get disproportionate DOF, with any given aperture. I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like a solution, so long as nothing moves between shots.

Dragonflies fly around with the Sun shining in their stunning little eyes all day long. No damage, so your 1/10000 second burst of less-than-sun-strong light shouldn't hurt them.

I understand your concern. It has occurred to me that dead bugs are easier to shoot than live ones, since they don't move, but I wouldn't kill a bug just for the chance to take his picture. That seems immoral to me. Neither would I harm anything just to get a photo.

I recently noticed a Luna Moth on my front door window. I grabbed my D30 and went outside, but he had disappeared. As I turned to walk back in, he flew out from somehwere and landed on my HEAD, fluttering and flapping all over my head, and causing me to 'freak out'. I'm afraid he may have caused himself serious harm, landing on, and panicking, this now-spooked photographer. But, I assure you, the injuries he received were not intentional. Even then, I didn't get to photograph him. When I tried to release him, after I decided he still had a chance, he flew into the house and has yet to be found. Rats! 1 dead moth and no pictures. We both lost out. What a waste it was.

But I wouldn't worry about the Dragonfly's eyes.

A dragonfly (for example) has relatively HUGE(or "numerous" eyes)
which are designed for fairly close prey-recognition. this would
imply that any extremely bright and CLOSE light would be well
focussed, and possibly thereby do maximum damage to the eyes. The
eyes upon-which the insect depends for it's nutrition, i.e.,
survival. The eyes without lids (which would not react
quickly-enough to protect against E.F., in any case).
Woah, too much responsibility!

--
'The Key to Safe Wildlife Photography: Think OUTSIDE of the Bear.'

My Galleries: http://home.attbi.com/~keylargographics/

 

[Larry H. Smith]

Hi Don,

I am a long-time user of slr's, so understand the dof/focus issues, ...my concern was was with the viewfinder performance of these SPECIFIC cameras.

I have seen threads on this forum describing the view-ability of the image through their viewfinders as "poor", for precise perception/control of focus.

That does not seem to be the opinion of responders to this thread (?).

Am I dealing with the old "different folks have different standards" idea, ...or are these cameras really "Fine" for precise MF work?

Thanks for the opthal-comments. I'm guessing you're right about the lawyer.

Larry,

As Michael explained, an SLR, especially when you hit the depth of
field preview button, will show you what is/isn't in focus, which
can be of great help. As he indicated, Autofocus is not useful
with most macro shooting, so that's not an issue.

I've got some macro work done with the D30/100/f2.8 with extension
tubes here, along with a photo of the set-up:

http://www.dlcphotography.net/Macro/MacroFrameSet.htm

Here's a sample:



This is the body of a "daddy long-legs spider."

As for eye damage from flash:

I'm an Ophthalmologist, and have never seen/read/heard anywhere
about potential eye damage to humans, baby or otherwise, from
photographic flash. When we do eye exams, we use lights of greater
intensity, for longer durations, and damage isn't an issue. I
imagine the manual entry came from a lawyer, rather than a
physician.

I'm not a Vet, so can't speak knowledgeably about whether there is
potential for eye damage to animals eyes, vertebrate or otherwise,
although I'd be inclined to doubt it if I had to speculate.

Hope this helps.

Don
http://www.dlcphotography.net

 

[Larry H. Smith]

Thanks Sven,

This is a trick I have used for years, and agree it can make all the difference (seeing/not-seeing) what you are actually doing with DOF.

Larry

The answer is that there is a depth of field (DOF) preview button
below the lens release button on the D30/60 that closes down the
aperture and shows you exactly what will be in focus. From there
you'll know whether to modify your aprerture accordingly to control
DOF.

The smaller the aperture is the darker the preview in the
viewfinder gets. For everything other than animals (flowers etc.) a
small mag light helps with dark DOF previews.
Sven

 

[Sven Bernert]

Hi Larry, here’s another one for you, taken at around 1.5:1



Camera Model Name: Canon EOS D30
Shooting Date/Time: 2002:05:08 20:02:52
Shooting Mode: Manual
Shutter: 1/60
Aperture: f22.0
Metering Mode: Evaluative
Exposure Comp: 0
ISO: 200
Lens: Sigma 180mm f/3.5 macro
Flash: On
Flash Type: External E-TTL (550 EX on camera, diffused)
Flash Exposure Compensation: -2/3 (for reflections on the slimy body)
WB: Auto
Handheld lying on ground

Best,
Sven

 

[DonCohen]

Larry,

I am a long-time user of slr's, so understand the dof/focus issues,
...my concern was was with the viewfinder performance of these
SPECIFIC cameras.

OK, gotcha now; sorry I didn't see that initially.

With that in mind, the 1D does offer a bigger/brighter viewfinder than the D30/D60, along with the ability to have different screens. So those factors could be significant in assessing DOF. Even with the 1D, though, looking through the viewfinder at f/16, f/22 is still challenging.

I've done reasonably good macro work using the D30, so with proper technique, attention to detail, etc., I don't know that going to a 1D is mandatory for that purpose alone. On the other hand, if your other shooting needs would benefit from the 1D's AF and overall speed and robustness, then it would be worth considering.

Don
http://www.dlcphotography.net

 

[Ted B.47613]

While shooting photos of a Blue Heron, using a D30, Sigma 50-500 + 2X teleconverter, camera on a tripod, using a cable release, I notice the shutter speed on the LCD did not match what was displayed in the viewfinder. 1/500 on top and 1/300-1/400 in the viewfinder.

I finally realized that the extra light getting in the viewfinder, when I took my eye away, was throwing off the exposure. Something I new would happen at night, but did not realize would happen during the day.

Since I wear glasses, some light will always get in from the viewfinder, which will always bias my shots toward under-exposure, at least slightly.

Live and learn.

--
'The Key to Safe Wildlife Photography: Think OUTSIDE of the Bear.'

My Galleries: http://home.attbi.com/~keylargographics/

 

[Sven Bernert]

Hi Mike,
I’ve seen your image minutes ago in the macro gallery over at NPN. Nice work!
Sven

 

[Larry H. Smith]

Hi Ted,

I just use the smallest aperture I can, with the available light,
that will give me a motion-freezing shutter speed. Then I
manually focus on that part of the subject that is slightly in
front of what I want to be in focus. 1/3 in front and 2/3 behind
gets me decent shots. But it can be tricky quite often.

Yeah, I know the "thirds" rule, but I want toSEE (not just think-I-know) what is happening! That's why I do this stuff, i'm an "image" freak.
(...bit of a "knowing" freak, too, but that's another issue ;-)

The DOF preview button does not always work with off-brand lenses,
it seems (I could be mistaken), and if your shooting aperture is
small, may not provide enough light to see what is and is not in
focus, anyway.

See exchange between Sven and I, above.

Some have mentioned what I'll call 'focus bracketing', and
combining images in Photoshop, to get disproportionate DOF, with
any given aperture. I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like a
solution, so long as nothing moves between shots.

Yeah, read about that, too, ...sounds intriguing, have to try it someday ;-)

Dragonflies fly around with the Sun shining in their stunning
little eyes all day long. No damage, so your 1/10000 second burst
of less-than-sun-strong light shouldn't hurt them.

Light is additive, ...try shining two, 3, etc. mirrors(each reflecting the sun) on a wall and taking light readings.

This mirror technique can be used as a long-distance flash to photograph birds-animals, which are perched in the shade at telephoto distances. Set-up takes time of course, so pick a "patient" subject (birds at nest, etc.). In this case (with theoretical 100 % reflection mirrors) one mirror on a shaded bird = 1 "sun", 2 = 2suns, etc. More light , ...smaller apertures(to a point) for a given speed, ...better resolution(with most lenses/DOF. Tailor the light to get the optimum aperture for your particular lens, at the desired shutter speed.

All you need is the sun, ...and you've got as much light as you have mirrors to reflect it ;-)

If you think the flash+sun light on a dragonfly's eyes is not as strong as sunlight, place your flash equally-close to a light-colored wall which is in full sunlight. Fire the flash while watching the wall. I expect you will see a very-much-brighter-than-the-surrounding-wall spot appear.

This is not to disagree about the flash not-causing harm. I think the answer is that we just don't know.

I understand your concern. It has occurred to me that dead bugs
are easier to shoot than live ones, since they don't move, but I
wouldn't kill a bug just for the chance to take his picture. That
seems immoral to me. Neither would I harm anything just to get a
photo.

I recently noticed a Luna Moth on my front door window. I grabbed
my D30 and went outside, but he had disappeared. As I turned to
walk back in, he flew out from somehwere and landed on my HEAD,
fluttering and flapping all over my head, and causing me to 'freak
out'. I'm afraid he may have caused himself serious harm, landing
on, and panicking, this now-spooked photographer. But, I assure
you, the injuries he received were not intentional. Even then, I
didn't get to photograph him. When I tried to release him, after I
decided he still had a chance, he flew into the house and has yet
to be found. Rats! 1 dead moth and no pictures. We both lost
out. What a waste it was.

Bad luck, would have been a great subject. Better luck next time!

Larry

 

[Larry H. Smith]

Or maybe a snail , ...is there a shell back there somewhere?

Nice one Sven!

Larry

Hi Larry, here’s another one for you, taken at around 1.5:1

 

[Sven Bernert]

Or maybe a snail , ...is there a shell back there somewhere?

Mike,

there is no shell. This is why we call it a ‘Nacktschnecke’ in German (naked snail).
Sven

 

[Larry H. Smith]

Or maybe a snail , ...is there a shell back there somewhere?

Mike,
there is no shell. This is why we call it a ‘Nacktschnecke’ in
German (naked snail).
Sven