Why the attitude about cheap stuff? A Vent

[Twisty290]

I have been a member but a short time.

I am completely baffled by so many questions and comments about the cost of lenses, filters, flashes, etc.

In one thread, someone asks about a battery for a D90. (What do you think of this one? - It is the cheapest I could find.)

My D80 owners manual states that using aftermarket accessories may affect the warranty.

Someone spends $1000 on a camera and then wants to save $8 or $22 on a battery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who are they going to cry to when it takes a !

It is common advice to get a decent body and spend money on glass. I paid $550 for my D80 and I am leaning toward the Nikon 12-24mm at $1027. Should I "save" $800 and get a cheap lens that is OK but not realy suited to my needs? The "Trapazoid AE ST 11-900mm is less money - would you use it? I want to turn Pro."

Should I clean my lens with a shop rag or my shirt because I am waiting for the price to drop on cleaning kits? Why not use acetone? I have a gallon in the garage.
Should I carry a couple flashlights instead of investing in a flash?

Buy the real thing. That is why they make the real thing. It is in our own best interest.
Done.

 

[Charlie Self]

I have been a member but a short time.
I am completely baffled by so many questions and comments about the
cost of lenses, filters, flashes, etc.
In one thread, someone asks about a battery for a D90. (What do you
think of this one? - It is the cheapest I could find.)
My D80 owners manual states that using aftermarket accessories may
affect the warranty.
Someone spends $1000 on a camera and then wants to save $8 or $22 on
a battery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who are they going to cry to when it takes a !
It is common advice to get a decent body and spend money on glass. I
paid $550 for my D80 and I am leaning toward the Nikon 12-24mm at
$1027. Should I "save" $800 and get a cheap lens that is OK but not
realy suited to my needs? The "Trapazoid AE ST 11-900mm is less money

• would you use it? I want to turn Pro."

Should I clean my lens with a shop rag or my shirt because I am
waiting for the price to drop on cleaning kits? Why not use acetone?
I have a gallon in the garage.
Should I carry a couple flashlights instead of investing in a flash?
Buy the real thing. That is why they make the real thing. It is in
our own best interest.
Done.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Low cost does not always equate to cheesy, or, in your terms, cheap. Batteries are a case in point. There are not that many battery manufacturers in the world. Many low cost batteries come off the end of the same line as the name brands, with the primary difference being the label that's stuck on the end product.

Why would you such a silly example as 11-900 as a replacement for a 12-24?

Lens cleaning KITS are generally a waste of money, which doesn't mean you need to use a dirty tee shirt or an oil change rag instead.

There are times I can understand the desire for flashlights intead of flash units. At least the better flashlights are reliable and durable.

Why do other people economizing where they can bother you so much?

As to statements in manuals, a great many of those are made to make getting repairs under warranty more difficult. Too, manuals often have more exclusions than they have inclusions. Camera users find undocumented actions and reactions for years after a particular camera hits the market. Manuals are written to reinforce the point of view of the manufacturer, not the camera owner. All are incomplete. Most are also inaccurate.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

 

[GodSpeaks]

I have a very good digital camera. Very high end, definately pro gear. The battery from the manufacturer lists at $159. I can buy an IDENTICAL battery, made my a brand name camera company for $10. Identical. Hold the two batteries side by side and the ONLY difference is the manufacturer's sticker. Both have exactly the same voltage and millamphour ratings.

So, by your estimation, I should spend the additional $149 and be happy because it has my camera manufacturer's sticker on it and not someone elses.

Don't think so.

--

The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'

• Rayna Butler

 

[Marty4650]

I have been a member but a short time.
I am completely baffled by so many questions and comments about the
cost of lenses, filters, flashes, etc.

This is an expensive hobby, Twisty. Everyone isn't rich. Many of us try to economize wherever we can in order to spend more of our money on good glass, or a camera body upgrade.

In one thread, someone asks about a battery for a D90. (What do you
think of this one? - It is the cheapest I could find.)
My D80 owners manual states that using aftermarket accessories may
affect the warranty.
Someone spends $1000 on a camera and then wants to save $8 or $22 on
a battery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who are they going to cry to when it takes a !

Thousands of forum members have had absolutely no problems using after market batteries. They aren't lying about this. If they were having problems, they would say so. It is an open secret that batteries are a huge profit item for camera makers, which is why you can sometimes replace a $89 "official battery" with a $15 after market replacement.

A battery is just a power source, Twisty. If it's made right, it will work. If it isn't it won't or could harm the camera. Which is exactly why people here exchange information about the ones that work well and the ones that don't. That is the whole idea behind a forum. But if you want, you can buy $89 batteries, No one will stop you. It's your right.

My BMW manual tells me I should only use a BMW dealer supplied battery "in order to protect my warranty" but I understand this is simply because they want to sell me a $350 battery, when a $80 Diehard will work fine. And you don't understand this point.

It is common advice to get a decent body and spend money on glass. I
paid $550 for my D80 and I am leaning toward the Nikon 12-24mm at
$1027. Should I "save" $800 and get a cheap lens that is OK but not
realy suited to my needs? The "Trapazoid AE ST 11-900mm is less money

• would you use it? I want to turn Pro."

No, why would you want to do that? Anyone here will tell you to get exactly what you need. Buying something "cheaper, but not meeting your needs" is the biggest waste of money possible! I've never seen anyone here give that kind of advice. Have you?

Should I clean my lens with a shop rag or my shirt because I am
waiting for the price to drop on cleaning kits? Why not use acetone?
I have a gallon in the garage.
Should I carry a couple flashlights instead of investing in a flash?
Buy the real thing. That is why they make the real thing. It is in
our own best interest.
Done.

Can you point to a post where anyone actually said those things? Or is this some kind of attempt to be cute? I understand you are trying to make a point, but inventing silly quotes isn't the best way to do it.

The "attitude" you complain about is nothing more than people wanting to spend their money wisely, by paying the lowest price for the same goods, or by substituting equivalent cheaper goods of the SAME quality and utility. But you don't have to do this.

You can buy whatever you want for whatever price you are willing to pay. You can buy Nikon Brand batteries, and Nikon Brand filters, and Nikon Brand flashes, and Nikon Brand camera bags. And maybe even Nikon Brand lens tissue. And you can probably find a Nikon Brand coffee mug too, and that too "might be better." None of these things will harm your camera one bit. They will just cost you more.

As far as these forums go, please understand that anyone can join. There is no screening process or qualifactions required. There are something like 100 million posts here. You will probably find some very goofy ones amnong them.

But since you say you are new, let me assure you that the overwelming majority of the information shared here is relevant, informative and useful. You just need to sort it out for yourself, because no one does it for you. And there isn't a better forum anywhere on the internet for amateur photographers. If you find a better one, let me know. I will join it too.

Welcome aboard!
--
Marty
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
http://marty4650.zenfolio.com/p82379129/slideshow#h275db7e6

Panasonic FZ30, LX2, TZ5
Olympus E-510, Zuiko 12-42mm, 40-150mm

 

[rsn48]

The entire commercial market has "cheaper" items that some times do rival the more expensive products, and sometimes not. Name your poison, whether we're talking microwaves, computers, TV's, you name it, there is a cheaper version out there.

I personally purchase no name AA alkaline batteries that work just as well as the name brand batteries but are substantially cheaper. I bought $30 microwave for my boat.

Sometimes, those warnings are put in by the manufacture to maintain their sales in accessories. If I believe Sigma, I should only use a Sigma TC for their lenses - I guess I shouldn't purchase the Kenko pro TC.
--
An excellent lens lasts a lifetime, an excellent DSLR, not so long.

 

[Twisty290]

They don't call me Twisty for Nuthin'

 

[Marty4650]

Hey... by the way... your decision to buy a D80 rather than a D90 is a PERFECT example of saving money without sacraficing quality.

You opted for last year's enthusiast model at a great price, rather than this year's enthusiast model at a very high price. Even though the D90 had a couple of more bells and whistles on it.

I think you made a very smart move, and probably saved $500 in the process. And that $500 you saved can buy you better lenses! And so what if you didn't get video... you didn't need video anyway.

So, you are already practicing what I was preaching about!
--
Marty
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
http://marty4650.zenfolio.com/p82379129/slideshow#h275db7e6

Panasonic FZ30, LX2, TZ5
Olympus E-510, Zuiko 12-42mm, 40-150mm

 

[Twisty290]

I enjoy a good discussion now and then.

The absurdity of some of my comments is meant to reflect the absurdity of others.

I think that it is very unfortunate that so many people are caught up in the "What is the cheapest..." set of beliefs or thought process.

I did read a thread where a user claimed his Nikon recognized an aftermarket or non-Nikon battery. This caused me to think that if a battery/operation problem arose, the camera could give the service tech that info and there could be a voiding of the warranty.

Personally, I try to continue my support of a manufacturer by purchasing their parts and accessories. I do not think it is unwise or a waste of money - after all - it is important to remember that we are buying into a family of products. That is a statement I have seen many times on many forums - not just photo forums. Is it honest to buy into a family and then sell them out?

I admit that the battery issue may not have been one of the best examples to use. Perhaps flashes or magnification filters may be a better example.

Leonard states, "Some DPR posters report good results with the Canon close-up lenses. Naturally, these are the most expensive ones around."

OK, I buy a $30 3x filter. I like the effect but not the dismal quality, but Hey, it was cheap!

After that experience, I buy a filter for $185. Did I save any money? Remember, I wanted the cheapest one to save money.

Let's pretend that I buy a "C" brand camera. An excellent body by any standard. Every single lens and accessory I buy after that is aftermarket or a non-"C" brand.

It is unrealistic to believe that "C" will be around after a few years when I need service, parts or an upgrade.

Could it be that the profit margin is tiny on a camera body and the manufacturers are counting on dedicated customers to follow up and buy accessories so they can actually make a profit and stay in business?

I don't know - but isn't that an interesting thought?

It is part of the bigger picture.
We absolutely must make good investments.
We absolutely must make wise investments.

And Thanks Again - I enjoy reading all of the comments and opinions. It is healthy to express ourselves.

express - ex-press - to press out from within - Good Stuff Indeed!

 

[BIJ001]

Thousands of forum members have had absolutely no problems
using after market batteries.

I have some 8 and 16 MB cards from the time when hey were given with gadgets, too small event then. And of course I have purchased some SD cards since then.

The only one to die on me was a no-name one (of 128 MB). The other no-name one (of 256 MB) and the named ones (1/2 GB, 1 GB , 2 GB) are working well.

--
Iván József Balázs
(Hungary)

 

[dholl]

You have to understand that there are many lovers of photography and gear but who do not have very much disposable cash (like me).

So by buying my body from a used auction on Ebay, I have enough money left over to get me a M42 adapter, a sharp manual f1,8 50mm portrait lens from maybe one of the defunct East German manufacturers and a €5 battery or two from some power seller with the brand of "no-name".

If I 'supported' my camera brand by buying their own stuff new from their own dealers...well, you know what, it wouldn't even happen because I couldn't affort it.

Cheap is good. It means the likes of me can also shoot DSLR.

--
dholl

 

[Arrowman]

A faulty battery can do an awful lot of damage to a camera.

Nikon (for example) will guarantee battery and camera (even though they don't actually make the battery) because they can control (test, set standards for) the quality of the batteries they buy under their contract with the battery maker.

Most third party batteries may be OK. But you're not asking Nikon to guarantee "most" third party batteries, you're asking them to guarantee ALL thrid party batteries, no matter which cheap factory with dodgy quality control they came from. And you're asking them to guarantee a $1000 plus camera into the bargain.

The third party battery maker will probably offer a guarantee for the battery. Try asking them to guarantee the camera as well, and see how far you get.

--

 

[MusicDoctorDJ]

I admit that the battery issue may not have been one of the best examples to use.

Perhaps flashes or magnification filters may be a better example.

Actually, the battery issue is a perfect example.

Let them buy their cheap $10 batteries . . .

When they buy them, they all come here and brag about their good deals.

But when they have problems, they are too embarrassed to tell us about it as someone will remember when they posted their brags and will link to it!

Sure, there are some good aftermarket batteries . . . but there are lots more bad ones out there!

I see them almost every day at the store when people bring in their burned out cameras whining about it.

And oftentimes they have some no-named brand of rechargable battery in it!

I also prefer the manufacturer's battery over the aftermarkets.

I have one (DigiPower), and while it is a decent battery, it only lasts about 2/3's as long per charge as my actual Olympus batteries.

Sorry . . . no links for supporting proof!

--
J. D.
Colorful Colorado



Remember . . . always keep your receipt, the box, and everything that came in it!

 

[dholl]

I don't believe that. I, and most forum members who also use no-name accessories, would be very willing to inform the forum about bad experiences with certain gear.

Why do you say:

"But when they have problems, they are too embarrassed to tell us

about it as someone will remember when they posted their brags and will link to it!"

How do you know that?

and where are these members who come on here and "brag" about their good deals? Normally, members ask if anyone has used such goods before deciding whether or not to buy.

I don't think anyone "brags" about it.

Let them buy their cheap $10 batteries . . .

When they buy them, they all come here and brag about their good deals.

--
dholl

 

[Brian D. Schneider]

A faulty battery can do an awful lot of damage to a camera.

Nikon (for example) will guarantee battery and camera (even though
they don't actually make the battery) because they can control (test,
set standards for) the quality of the batteries they buy under their
contract with the battery maker.

Most third party batteries may be OK. But you're not asking Nikon to
guarantee "most" third party batteries, you're asking them to
guarantee ALL thrid party batteries, no matter which cheap factory
with dodgy quality control they came from. And you're asking them to
guarantee a $1000 plus camera into the bargain.

The third party battery maker will probably offer a guarantee for the
battery. Try asking them to guarantee the camera as well, and see
how far you get.

--

--I have been using sterlingtek batteries for years in abt 6 different cameras & have never had a battery problem. Their batteries are just as reliable as OEM as many here can testify. I doubt if sterlingteks of diamondbacks have ever damaged a camera.
Brian Schneider

 

[Twisty290]

From dictionary.com;

4. of little account; of small value; mean; shoddy: cheap conduct; cheap workmanship.
Admittedly, I selected the one to emphasize my point.

"A faulty battery can do an awful lot of damage to a camera.

Nikon (for example) will guarantee battery and camera (even though they don't actually make the battery) because they can control (test, set standards for) the quality of the batteries they buy under their contract with the battery maker.

Most third party batteries may be OK. But you're not asking Nikon to guarantee "most" third party batteries, you're asking them to guarantee ALL thrid party batteries, no matter which cheap factory with dodgy quality control they came from. And you're asking them to guarantee a $1000 plus camera into the bargain."

"Actually, the battery issue is a perfect example.

Let them buy their cheap $10 batteries . . . When they buy them, they all come here and brag about their good deals. But when they have problems, they are too embarrassed to tell us about it as someone will remember when they posted their brags and will link to it! Sure, there are some good aftermarket batteries . . . but there are lots more bad ones out there! I see them almost every day at the store when people bring in their burned out cameras whining about it.
And oftentimes they have some no-named brand of rechargable battery in it!
I also prefer the manufacturer's battery over the aftermarkets."

Exactly my point, my friends.

A "Trapazoid AE ST 11-900mm" does not exist by the way - Gotcha, Charlie!

Rayna, would you please provide a link to that $10 battery? I'd like to buy one and throw it away. Personally, I find it completely and utterly astonishing that you really do that!

"My BMW manual tells me I should only use a BMW dealer supplied battery "in order to protect my warranty" but I understand this is simply because they want to sell me a $350 battery, when a $80 Diehard will work fine. And you don't understand this point."

Come on Marty, let's play pretend again. Do you really believe that a dealer will ignore your choice of battery when the $3000 wire harness could be replaced under warranty at no cost to you? You saved $270 on a battery and need to spend $3000 on the car to get it running again. As I asked before, did you save any money?

I clearly understand the point. You do not seem to. The Diehard will work fine. It is in your best interest to not install one. It is in your best interest to buy the recommended battery. After the warranty expires, install what you want.

 

[Arrowman]

I didn't say third party batteries are no good, I said it was reasonable for camera makers to refuse to honour the warranty when a third party battery has been used.

I'm sure sterlingtek betteries are very good. But that is not the point. People seem to confuse the two issues, saying "third party batteries are [can be] OK therefore the camera maker should cover them under warranty".

Does the warranty on the battery cover your camera?

You are asking the camera maker to provide a warranty on a camera, regardless of whether or not they have any quality control over, or responsibility for, a critical component that you have inserted and which is capable of doing great damage to the camera.

--

 

[dholl]

What Charlie was referring to is that a Nikon 12-24 and a Whatevazoid 11-900 are not the same type of lens, it makes no sense in choosing between the two. One is a high-grade x2 wide zoom and the other, if it existed, would be a cheap obscure brand wide megazoom.

A better comparison, in backing up your argument, would be either getting the Nikon 55-200mm, or the Tamron 55-200mm. One costs more than three times as much but is the same brand as the camera, and is better built.

I would go for the Tamron, because it's the cheap option.

Cheap is good.

Definition of 'cheap' in the Oxford Dictionary:

• good, describing something that is a good option, a good way to purchase products.

A "Trapazoid AE ST 11-900mm" does not exist by the way - Gotcha,
Charlie!

--
dholl

 

[Twisty290]

"One costs more than three times as much but is the same brand as the camera, and is better built."

 

[gaussian blur]

Sure, there are some good aftermarket batteries . . . but there are
lots more bad ones out there!

Very true.

Sorry . . . no links for supporting proof!

Here's one:
http://t5r.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/e1/clonetests.htm

 

[gaussian blur]

--I have been using sterlingtek batteries for years in abt 6
different cameras & have never had a battery problem. Their batteries
are just as reliable as OEM as many here can testify. I doubt if
sterlingteks of diamondbacks have ever damaged a camera.

http://t5r.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/e1/clonetests.htm#wtblm1

And note 2 at the bottom:

"operations like 7DayShop and Sterling Tek source packs from all over - the same 'own label' pack available in a few months time might have completely different internals."