AA batteries - another prospective customer lost

[MR The Guy]

I know at least one electronics chain where the salesmen on the floor
get higher commissions on certain products. Anything they can say to
sway towards such a product they will say every time.

Manufacturers have a program for salespeople that are called 'spiffs'. A cheque directly from the manufacturer to the salesperson. Sometimes spiffs have increased payouts depending on how many sales are made each month. $50, $75 or $100 is typical. Get enough spiffs and you may even get a free product. If you're ever buying a piece of electronics and the salesperson is obviously attempting to steer you in one direction ask, "What's the spiff on this thing anyway?" His/her sputtering reaction will be telling. On a $600 camera, a salesperson may make $20 to $50 in commission. See how a spiff can triple that?

I'm not saying SONY has spiffs on their new camera but this thread makes me believe it is so.

If you go to a store that has salespeople who "Don't Work On Commission", (ie., they're incompetent). A spiff is technically, not commission. So, that's another reason why they exist. Also, tax withholdings are not usually deducted from spiffs either so...

 

[janneman02]

I said that for a entry level DSLR you can't really make a bad
decision in today's DSLR market

You don't believe that yourself, do you???
Well a bad decision maybe not but you should have told here K200D is best...

--

The difference between genius and LBA is that genius has its
limits.

• Janneman ( adaptation of the Kings quote from Albert Einstein)

 

[gpeek]

This shouldn't be a debate between AA's and proprietary batteries. It should be about local camera stores and their selling practices vs online.

The salesman's battery argument was obviously illogical and motivated by commissions/spiffs to sell the Sony. He should have been working with her to see which camera felt the most comfortable in her hand (as other possible factors should have already been covered by Brett)

There are many factors to consider between buying online and locally. In this case, she should take advantage of the ease of returning items purchase locally.

Because the local salesman has proven to be motivated by $$ and not what is best for the customer, I don't see that store as deserving of any loyalty.

She should then head to one of the popular online retailers to buy the right camera (Pentax of course).

 

[0xDEADBEEF]

than you experienced photographer?

Anyway, I liked AAs on my DS very much. They are available everywhere so when R-CRV3s ran out I sould just buy even stupid alkalines and use the camera.

Plus, the flash also uses AAs so it is possible to use the same batteries for flash and camera and carry only one set of backup batteries.
--
-Dominik

 

[awaldram]

I'm not convinced that with our knowledge of the story that we are in any position to question the salespersons motives.

Just because he doesn't agree with your view points doesn't mean he's dis-honest , it doesn't even mean he's wrong.

AA batteries are for the average Joe a poor choice for a camera , they will generally buy high Ah Nimh and then be disappointed when they pick the camera up after 2 months non use to find it flat.

Unless you regularly use your camera AA's are a pain your camera becomes a High maintenance tool requiring constant attention prior to use.

Hence my opinion that an AA source entry level camera is not the smartest choice.

The fact the k200d is a better camera than the a200 is irrelevant in this argument as from my experience salespeople generally know less about the product than the customer and have only read the sales blurb

 

[RBellavance]

I share Richard's feelings. I used to be very fond of AA's, but since getting my K10D I'd never go back to them. Li-Ion "proprietary" packs have too many advantages over them.

My guess is that the rumoured new small entry-level camera to be announced at Photokina will use a Li-Ion pack, and that the K200D was the last AA-powered Pentax camera.

 

[distudio]

So with the seed of doubt in her mind about AAs, she goes ahead and
buys the Sony A200. Another customer lost to Pentax. She already
knew that the DA18-55 is probably a better lens than the Sony. K200D
+ DA18-55 + DA50-200 was exactly the same price. Still, another
customer lost due to a concern over AAs as a viable power source.

It was nothing to do with batteries, it was the sales person, any believable potential point of contention would likely have worked to bias the options.

--
Rob

 

[geoffcole]

Yes it is a problem.

For myself, even though the K10D fit my requirements better than the K100D, the lack of a backup AA option has always been a concern -- as is the different, but still proprietary battery in my portable storage device.

As an example, last year took a holiday to Fraser Island and was there for a week. Took the combined mains/car charger for the camera batteries and three SD cards, but forgot to take the charger for the PSD. Decided at the last minute to stay in accomodation rather than camping so camera power was not a problem, but because I'd left the PSD charger at home, the PSD died and none of the handful of retail outlets on the island had any soft of flash card for sale. Needless to say, once I filled my SD cards, that was it. No more photos.

So regardless of the many advantages of Li-Ion, having a backup AA option is a real plus in my book.

Cheers,
Geoff.
--
http://geoffcole.smugmug.com/

 

[rgmwa]

awaldram wrote:
I'm not convinced that with our knowledge of the story that we are in
any position to question the salespersons motives.

But his product knowledge is questionable if he thinks all AA batteries the same, which seems to be the case

Just because he doesn't agree with your view points doesn't mean he's
dis-honest , it doesn't even mean he's wrong.

True, but definitely ill-informed

AA batteries are for the average Joe a poor choice for a camera ,
they will generally buy high Ah Nimh and then be disappointed when
they pick the camera up after 2 months non use to find it flat.

Eneloop type batteries simply don't have that problem

Unless you regularly use your camera AA's are a pain your camera
becomes a High maintenance tool requiring constant attention prior to
use.

I use AA's, and I don't agree with you

Hence my opinion that an AA source entry level camera is not the
smartest choice.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion

The fact the k200d is a better camera than the a200 is irrelevant in
this argument as from my experience salespeople generally know less
about the product than the customer and have only read the sales blurb

Often true, but in this case the customer either didn't know, or couldn't remember enough of what she'd been advised by Brett, to question the salesman's recommendations.
--
Robert
rgm-wa

 

[Norm1234]

My niece came to me about buying her first DSLR (modest but adequate
budget for entry level models)

To show lack of bias, I took her through the entry level options from
all the makers and priced up a two zoom kit on each. I then ran
through the Pros and Cons of each model and explained some basics
behind photography and what to look for in making her decision.

I said that for a entry level DSLR you can't really make a bad
decision in today's DSLR market

Hello Uncle Brett:

Up to this point, you had fulfilled your obligation as a good uncle, to advise your niece with the utmost in care and consideration.

Despite the fact that she has made a decision that does not parallel your preferences in equipment, she did pick one of the alternatives that you suggested.

It is now time to step back from the endless debate over the pros and cons of battery types, and concentrate on helping your niece learn the skills of a creative photographer. I would not make the differences in the camera systems an issue - your niece will appreciate your patience and wise counsel in the techniques of fine photography.

As you accompany her on this adventure in photography, I have no doubt that she will become more and more interested in your Pentax camera and lenses, comparing it with her Sony. She may like the ergonomics and user-friendly operation of the Pentax, or the superb results that come straight from the camera - at the end of a long day of photography, when the batteries in her Sony may be on their last legs, your Pentax should still be ready to go.

That is when your niece will turn to you and say, "Uncle Brett, I should have listened to you - let's put this Sony on E-Bay, and buy a Pentax!"

After all, every argument you have made in support of the decision to choose Pentax as an entry-level DSLR system is valid... and the Pentaxians posting in this thread have largely supported your views. You may add my name to that list.

A very good friend of mine just returned from a long trip, and called me to help him Photoshop two weeks worth of Canon Rebel XTi images... seems that they didn't come out quite as sharp or properly exposed as he had expected (by a long shot). He has been e-mailing Pentax ads to my attention all week - another disappointed Canon fan getting ready to make the big move to Pentax.

Norm.



That's my two cents on this topic.

 

[rgmwa]

I agree. At the end of the day, it's about photography, not about which camera you use.
--
Robert
rgm-wa

 

[mugund]

I dont think so

The kit lenses may not be as good but in the long run both the systems are pretty evenly matched. Except for weathersealing, sony A200 got good reviews and from what I have seen produced great images too...

In the end, she should be applauded for buying a SLR and ask her to develop good photography skills (only then she can notice whether Pentax better or not)

Mugundhan

 

[JensR]

Hi Norm!

You do have a point.

She was given info. She has decided. She will live with the consequences, good and bad and Brett will surely assist her as good as he can.
If Sony doesn't work out for her, it won't be Brett's fault.

If the Pentax hadn't worked out for her, it #umm# well. I know some people who would then come to me and say: "But you said..." (Not saying that his niece is one of those people!)

And another positive aspect that I cannot believe noone(?) mentioned: Brett's lenses are safe from being loaned out for the time being!

Cheers
Jens

--

'Well, 'Zooming with your feet' is usually a stupid thing as zoom rings are designed for hands.' (Me, 2006)
My Homepage: http://www.JensRoesner.de

 

[BillKyle]

Well using AA was a feature I thought was good when looking for my first DSLR. I proved true a couple weeks ago when I got up to do some sun rise shots while on vacation. Not wanting to carry my whole bag in the dark over an unfamiliar trail I just grabbed my camera with the flash unit still on it from the night before and my tripod, forgetting to grab extra batteries. And, Murphy made the set in the camera run out of juice just as sun rise was getting good. I was able to used the AA's from my flash unit and finish getting the shots I wanted.

--
Bill Kyle
Interest - nature photography

 

[Lance B]

Hi Norm!

You do have a point.
She was given info. She has decided. She will live with the
consequences, good and bad and Brett will surely assist her as good
as he can.

Agreed. Brett did all he was supposed to.

If Sony doesn't work out for her, it won't be Brett's fault.
If the Pentax hadn't worked out for her, it #umm# well. I know some
people who would then come to me and say: "But you said..." (Not
saying that his niece is one of those people!)

One reason why I advise people to look at all the DSLR's available and make their own choice. I will help them with terminology and other such advice, but I steer clear of pursuading which to buy.

I actually tried to convince my brother not to buy Pentax, but just like my brother, he never listens to me!! ;-) Anyway, he has purchased two Pentax's, the DS and now the K10D and is as happy as can be. I also sold him my much loved DA16-45 which he thinks is the best lens!

And another positive aspect that I cannot believe noone(?) mentioned:
Brett's lenses are safe from being loaned out for the time being!

This did go through my mind, too.

--
Lance B
http://www.pbase.com/lance_b

 

[JensR]

Hi Lance!

I actually tried to convince my brother not to buy Pentax, but just
like my brother, he never listens to me!! ;-)

Ah. So. Umm. Reverse psychology, anyone?!

And another positive aspect that I cannot believe noone(?) mentioned:
Brett's lenses are safe from being loaned out for the time being!

This did go through my mind, too.

We are a hopeless case

Cheers
Jens

--

'Well, 'Zooming with your feet' is usually a stupid thing as zoom rings are designed for hands.' (Me, 2006)
My Homepage: http://www.JensRoesner.de

 

[Zoomster]

Li-Ion "proprietary" packs have too many advantages over them. (AA batteries)

The only advantage Li-Ions have that I can see is that they are lighter in weight. Please tell us the rest of the many advantages.

--
Zoomster

 

[PentaxKat]

1) She can buy whatever camera she wants. It is nice if friends and family have the same lens mount though for "sharing" lenses.

2) I'm sure the Sony is a good camera

3) A big selling point for me is the AA batteries.
-normally I have rechargeable CVR-3's in my DS.
-I got them with a charger off ebay
-these last at least 500 shots!!!!!!!!!!! I don't take my charger on holidays!

However, if I lose the charger/can't plug it in/left it at home. Wherever I am in the world I can get AA batteries. Thus, I always have a fail safe option.

I might add though that the sales person was semi-right. I find normal batteries don't last that long so it quickly gets an expensive option.

Now if Pentax made another DS size camera (or smaller), with AAs, IS, pentaprism not mirror and a movie mode (which obviously would not work on AAs), I might actually upgrade; perfect travel cam. Given market forces though this is clearly not going to happen!

 

[Genes Pentax]

I can get 8 AA and 4 AAA eneloops WITH a charger for $20. I think NP-400
withOUT a charger is at least $20.

Actually, they are $9.95 from B&H:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/297792-REG/Konica_Minolta_8699X001_NP_400_Lithium_Ion_Battery_7_4v.html

$4.95 for shipping; of course, you can get two or three for the same
shipping charge. And the charger, of course is not needed, because it
comes with the camrea.

Ok. So, $14.90 for one NP-400. $24.85 for two NP-400.

For $20, I get 8 (8 = eight) AA and 4 (4 = four) AAA Eneloops. With 8 AAs that's like having two NP-400s since *ist D/DS/DL/K100D uses 4 AAs at a time. ALSO, I get 4 AAAs. I use the 4 AAAs to power my Flashwaves (two of them). Also, once the AA's get depleted to be unable to power my ist D, I can still use them on my flashes.

Let's spell V E R S A T I L I T Y.

When I used K10D, I don't remember the NP-400s lasting much more than my AA Eneloops. I've not done any controlled testing to be certain, but after using both my K10D and ist D for about a year each, that's my impression.

I'm with Richard: I love the single-battery approach. The single
battery was one of many things I liked much better about the K10D
over my ist DL.

I understand the advantage of single proprietary lithium battery approach. I understand that it provides more juice. Perhaps with CMOS sensors, AAs may be sufficient.

Again, while there is an advantage to proprietary lithium battery, I don't see much advantage as a consumer for that approach. Perhaps it's necessary for faster professional grade DSLRs. But if K200D with CCD sensor can be powered with AAs, I wonder why K20D with CMOS sensor cannot use AAs.

If (1) Pentax sticks with just one model of proprietary battery that can be used from one generation to the next generation of its cameras and (2) the price of such batteries remains as low as $9.95, then I'd be less reluctant about it.

But, at least for now, after having used both NP-400 and AAs, I prefer AAs.

I have never found a decent set of AAs in a gas station; the last set
of alkalines I bought for my ist DL lasted about 20 shots.

Well, at a gas station, you can get alkaline AAs made by such companies as Energizer or Duracel. As AAs go, those are quite good.

And, yes ... the alkaline AAs don't last very long in DSLRs. But 20 shots is much better than 0.

I would NEVER go on an important photo trip like a safari with any
hope whatsoever of finding decent enough AAs to get me through the
trip. Even if I found any, I'd have to buy 30 or 40 sets.

Have you ever been on a long trip? So, let's take your silly hypothetical. What is your plan then? Lug around 3~5 NP-400s and the charger? For my ist D, I'd just take several lithium AAs. They last longer than NP-400 did in my K10D. Also, I can toss those lithium AAs to lighten my load as I travel. For some reason, if my lithium AAs all run out, I'm sure the chances of finding even alkaline AAs for 20 shots would be pretty good.

Now, what's the chance of you finding an electrical outlet? I guess you'll also have to carry plug adapters.

Another advantage of AAs. As mentioned before, used AAs that are no longer good enough for my DLSR is still good for my flashes. It's rather like killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

It seems somewhat silly to even pose this scenario. Would anyone plan
for such an important trip without considering batteries? And if they
did, there's a good chance they forgot a telephoto lens, too...

Well, unless you travel like a king with a caravan following you around, for many travelers, there's the dilemma of limited space in bags.

Exactly as you pointed out, because when people plan for important trips, they consider batteries, AA is better.

In my particular travel through Europe for 30 days, I had to pack everything in my backpack. So, space was premium. If I were to travel through Asia, e.g., Japan, Korea, China, Vietnam, etc., with AAs, packing decision would be simpler because I know that AAs are available everywhere. With a proprietary battery, I'd have to worry about carrying not only the charger, but also adapters for the electrical outlets.

Also, consider this. Even in some of those countries where electricity supply is a bit spotty, you'll have a good chance of finding AA batteries.

So, why don't you actually try planning such a trip? See what you end up packing. Instead of just trying to do things on a paper or in your head, actually take out your travel bags and start packing them. See if they all fit as you think. See what you end up leaving out. Then see whether it'll be better to have a camera powered by AAs or by proprietary rechargeable battery.

I speak from actual experience of having traveled with both types of cameras and actually having used both ist D and K10D.

Gene

--
http://genespentax.blogspot.com/
http://flickr.com/photos/genespentax/

 

[thiago_silva]

So with the seed of doubt in her mind about AAs, she goes ahead and
buys the Sony A200. Another customer lost to Pentax. She already

The saddest thing is that she ended up buying the worst option among the entry level dSLRs. You shouldn't have let her go alone!
--
Thiago Silva - http://www.flickr.com/photos/thiagosilva/
Victoria - BC - Canada

'If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera.' (Lewis Hine)