Lightroom 'sucking' the punch out of my D3 RAW files.

One way around this would be if the algorithms could be encoded in a
non platform specific way into the images themselves. But the more
complex code would probably add 10+ megabytes!
Only if the coder were inept. That seems extremely inflated to me.

Add 10+ megabytes where, and of what? Of source code?
Machine language? Memory image? Average resident set
size of the running process--and if so, working on what data?

=================================================
Similarities should be represented in code, differences in data.
=================================================

If you code up all possible differences instead of running off a
table-driven algorithm whose differences are stored in that
table, then of course you will incur astronomical levels of code
bloat. If you do it properly, you will not. Every programmer
who merits the title instinctively factors out similarities. When
you factor out similarities, not only do you shrink your code
size, you also create a program that is dramatically easier to
maintain and to manage. It may well run faster, too.

Those of us who learned to write full-sized programs, even
operating systems, within address spaces of only 64k or smaller
--yes, I said kilobyte not megabyte--learned that not only
was small beautiful, but the only game in town. Those lessons
are still relevant today, whether we can throw another gigabyte
of memory on the problem or not. An untidy program is an
untidy mind, and you do not want to suffer under what code
an untidy mind produces.

Being a programmer is a strange thing in this regard: unlike
many and most other professions, where the qualitative
product of their labors varies by perhaps 5-25% each level
going from an unskilled inept up through a poor to a fair to a
good to a great to at last a world-class adept, and where
such differences are not always apparent. With programmers,
the difference is much greater, and must more obvious.

A good programmer will easily produce code that's of
10x the quality of a merely average one's, although financial
compensation will never increase accordingly. A poor
programmer, of whom there are many, will create things
that are staggeringly inferior in quality. And yet these people
muddle through their jobs, afflicting the rest of us with
their disabilities, and still being paid not much less than an
average programmer would be paid. Even if you hired
10 programmers of "poor" grade, they could never produce
something a good, let alone great, programmer could produce.

Hiring 9 women won't get you a baby in 1 month, but it will
get you 9 babies in 9 months. With programmers, it's more
like preschool finger-painters: no matter how many poor ones
you have laboring for however long you will, never shall they
produce the output of a Michelangelo or a Da Vinci. Give me
just one gifted programmer over 100 pedestrian ones any day.

Another 10+ megabytes of program? Only if you employ
artless and ungifted programmers unable to see the forest
for the trees.

Alas that these sorts are never in short supply! :(

--tom
 
It's the JPG preview. If you prefer the look of that, maybe just shoot in JPG :-)
--
Michael
http://www.Qamera.com

the inQuisitive camera
 
To write replies like that? :)

I really have no idea how much space would be needed to hold the code to do all Nikon's RAW processing. But I wouldn't assume it's trivial was my point.
 
To write replies like that? :)
By dodging corporate Christmas parties.

By having thought upon the matter before.

By reading broadly enough to adopt a varied syntax.

By running out of the periods needed for shorter sentences.

By writing > 100,000 lines of code in vi even before grad school.

By not having time to make it shorter. :-)
I really have no idea how much space would be needed to hold the code
to do all Nikon's RAW processing. But I wouldn't assume it's trivial
was my point.
No, I shouldn't assume it's trivial. But solving this by adding ten
or more million additional bytes of executable code--not meaning
something that grows proportionately as the size of the input
stream increases, but just the pure, static, not-yet-run code--is
so huge an increase that I am completely flummoxed how it
could ever occur outside of wastrel coding practices.

--tom

--
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/tpop/warstory.html
 
Do I? Odd... I thought this was a discussion forum, not a court of
law. Funny thing is, though, I think I have shown exactly that.
No, this is not a court of law, but I would like to see facts, before coming to any conclusions about Adobe and their perceived laziness and what they can and cannot do. You may well be perfectly right, but I haven't seen anything to support your case yet.

I may be completely wrong, I admit, but I still have not seen anything that says the Nikon SDK will let a developer emulate exactly the file that Capture NX or the camera's in-camera JPEG engine will produce. I've seen a post that says the SDK is a black-box solution that provides the developed with an RGB file, but I assume that's an uneffected RGB file.

Or can the SDK provide the developed with the RGB, as it would be rendered by Capture NX or the JPEG engine? I don't think it could, but even if it could, how the heck would you be able to modify the file? Lightroom's numbers are different than Capture's number, and there isn't necessarily a one-to-one correspondence between the two. I mean, honestly, what could you possibly do? There's no combination of numbers in Lightroom (so far as I know) that will reproduce exactly the same picture Capture NX would. So how do you possibly expect Lightroom to duplicate and allow editing of the file Capture NX/in-camera JPEG would?

My opinion is that it's not reasonable to expect Adobe to render a RAW file in the same manner as Capture or the Nikon JPEG conversion engine. I don't think it's a matter of Adobe being lazy, arrogant, or any of the other accusations you've leveled against them. It seems like a legitimately difficult problem.

So, SOMEBODY please answer this question for me clearly:
 
Eh...got chopped off there. So these are the questions:

1) Do we know for a fact that the SDK will allow anyone to view an RGB file fully processed by Nikon's conversion engine, utilizing all in-camera settings (sharpening, curves, pictures styles, etc...)

2) If yes, how do you expect Adobe to treat these pictures in Lightroom, when there is no correspondence between how Nikon renders a RAW and how Adobe renders a RAW?
 
Dear Peter,
I would like to see facts, before
coming to any conclusions about Adobe and their perceived laziness
and what they can and cannot do.
How many cameras Adobe support now? Is it possible for them to give maximum necessary attention to each of those?

--
no text
 
on the exposure/development proprietary stuff in the NEF before it does its own mojo on the raw data. Every RAW converter has a magic sauce they sell you. LR is no different than NX. The big deal is that NX uses the engine in your camera. NX will render the way Nikon likes to render.

So, what happens when you hit "Vivid" in LR presets? This should give you back some punch. Then hit the Punch preset and get a little extra, well, punch :-)

Finally, hit the FastForward sbutton on Vibrance and Clarity and see what happens. All these will most likely get you back to the punchy look your images had.

Tells us what you think.

If you want, send me a test NEF file and I will give it back to you as a JPG with any of the 200-300 or so presets I have in LightRoom :-) I have some of my own plust some I have collected.

Here is a good collection of them:

http://www.ononesoftware.com/photopresets-wow.php
--
Manny
http://www.pbase.com/gonzalu/
http://www.mannyphoto.com/
FCAS Member - http://manny.org/FCAS
 
LR preset you like, you can simply use Capture NX to batch your NEFs directly to JPG/TIFF and then import THOSE into LightRoom. YMMV... I do this with a lot of photos out of my D2Xs. I like the way the colors and tone look in NX. But the workflow of LightRoom can;t be beat.

If only Adobe would license the demosaicing engine from Nikon and use the ACTUAL data in the NEF to give you the default look as you shot it. Then you can play all you want. A lot of times, most photographers love the way the Nikon engine renders the image in the first place.

For me it is a mixed bag. Sometimes I love LightRoom, sometimes I hate Lightroom... the look that is, not the program or the workflow.

cheers
--
Manny
http://www.pbase.com/gonzalu/
http://www.mannyphoto.com/
FCAS Member - http://manny.org/FCAS
 
...yes.

It's no different - in fact, much smaller in scale - than the problem with Windows and device drivers. Microsoft, for all its many faults, does not want to own the problem of producing device drivers 'because it can do a better job' or 'because they all have to work in the same way'. Relying on the camera manufacturers to write RAW translators - however far down the process they went - would create its own problems, of course, but it might well solve the one under discussion.

--
Guy

'Critics talk about art; artists talk about brushes...'

My 'work' photos are at http://swarbrick.com/photos
The 'fun' stuff is at http://www.flickr.com/photos/swarbrick

Equipment in profile

 
If only Adobe would license the demosaicing engine from Nikon and use
the ACTUAL data in the NEF to give you the default look as you shot
it. Then you can play all you want. A lot of times, most
photographers love the way the Nikon engine renders the image in the
first place.
Exactly...
For me it is a mixed bag. Sometimes I love LightRoom, sometimes I
hate Lightroom... the look that is, not the program or the workflow.
Spot on.

--
Guy

'Critics talk about art; artists talk about brushes...'

My 'work' photos are at http://swarbrick.com/photos
The 'fun' stuff is at http://www.flickr.com/photos/swarbrick

Equipment in profile

 
Glad, you both are both more technical savvy and much better an explaining yourself than I am, this subject has come before and was unable to get my point across to the OP of that thread.

I would love either Adobe licensing the necessary engine or Nikon selling a plugin for LR.

regards
Ray
If only Adobe would license the demosaicing engine from Nikon and use
the ACTUAL data in the NEF to give you the default look as you shot
it. Then you can play all you want. A lot of times, most
photographers love the way the Nikon engine renders the image in the
first place.
Exactly...
For me it is a mixed bag. Sometimes I love LightRoom, sometimes I
hate Lightroom... the look that is, not the program or the workflow.
Spot on.

--
Guy

'Critics talk about art; artists talk about brushes...'

My 'work' photos are at http://swarbrick.com/photos
The 'fun' stuff is at http://www.flickr.com/photos/swarbrick

Equipment in profile

--

http://www.pbase.com/ray645
 
It's not so much that the NEFs are flat, that I'd expect. What threw me was that the 'Vivid' setting on the D3 was being adopted by NX, even though I was shooting RAW only. Up till I started this thread I always thought the in-camera settings only applied if you shot JPEG or RAW+JPEG - if you shot RAW only I assumed the settings were ignored. It seems that's not the case - this has opened my eyes to a whole new world of challenges!!
 
Will try out the Capture NX pre-batching.

I also would like a plain original Nikon RAW import in Capture as well, where I then can use Lightroom setings to tweak/modify but start out with the same look that I get from Nikon.

This is not just a D3 issue but the same for D300,... Even with all camera settings to default/as-little-as-possible-processing the Lightroom default results are VERY different.

--
Andi
 
since it is encrypted and it is a licensed product. But adobe simply just uses the White Balance info in the NEF and nothing else... as far as I know, they (Adobe) feel they know more than Nikon about the RAW data from their cam... or any other cam for that matter.

I don;t have a problem with that... I usually don;t mind the look in Lightroom... but with the D3, maybe Adobe needs to re-think their defaults to match the Nikon look better :-)

Heck, even the guys at Raw Magic can't get a perfect match... and we've tried to get it :-) I have been a beta tester for this excellent raw engine for some time and that was the source of lots of modifications to the program to try and get close to a default color balance for Nikon NEFs that would match what the in camera JPG looks like. It is tougher than we thought.

For the record, my testing confirms that the best and most accurate and most precise demosaicing engine is the one in Raw Magic. It extracts the absolute most detail from a NEF than ACR or Capture... I have yet to test it against the latest versions of ACR/LR and Capture NX though... but I posted here a while back about my findings and I was amazed how well the RML engine did against the big guns :-)

Cheers!
--
Manny
http://www.pbase.com/gonzalu/
http://www.mannyphoto.com/
FCAS Member - http://manny.org/FCAS
 

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