DPx best focal length poll

[Renatoa]

It seems that The Online Photographer hosts also very interesting debates about DP-1 as this forum. No surprise, given the preference of the owner for rangefinder type digital compacts.

The last is a poll about the most desired focal length for a fictious DP1 reloaded:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2007/12/lens-poll.html

My choice match the majority from this moment. The actual Sigma choice, 28 mm is the least popular.

 

[LMC54]

I'll bite.
Here is my opinion.

Sigma will elect to use a f4 lens because it will be easier, smaller and cheaper to produce than the popular f2.8 variety. Also looking into my cyrstal ball I see people complaining because they are getting poor images shooting in bad light (as usual, you can't run away from the fact most people can't understand this). IMO if Sigma elects to use the the f4 route they might as well brace themselves for complaints and bad images in poor light conditions (they will get complaints anyways even with a f2.8 but at least you'll get less). If the Foveon requires good light or lots of light then why install a slow lens? If it was I, I would not be cheap on the lens and not worry too much about a little extra cost or the extra small bulk of the lens. For once I wish Sigma would steer away from being cheap and put some extra costs into a device to make it optimal in all respects. There is already too many cheap P&s cameras and not enough highend small cameras. But I fear Sigma will not see this and tend to try for the El Cheapo market even though they have highend dreams or a revolutionary concept. Turning off my Cyrstal Ball.

Regards,
Larry

--
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=235

 

[Peter Spader]

No matter what Sigma do they will not please everyone. If memory serves Kazuto Yamaki discussed why they are going with the f4 "28mm" lens for the DP1 at an earler PMA. Using a faster lens with this size sensor in a compact camera is not as easy as some people think.

As the latest announcement on the DP1 reasserts, Sigma has been, and is, focused on IQ and that will dictact what lens is used more than anything else.

How much of a practical problem f4 will be for low light will be will depend, in part, on how well the DP1 performs at higher iso. Given the abysmal performance of many small cameras I suspect the DP1 may surprise people.

But once again we are diving in speculating on problems every before the camera is out. Let us wait and see what it can do.

In the meantime, I suggest you go out and shoot pictures with what you have.

Pete

 

[LMC54]

Nothing is easy in life. To be great one has to over come the impossible and go beyond the norm. There is already a market in place for cheap small cameras with tiny apertures. I do not see Sigma making head waves into the compact camera market with the specifications that are already in place. Most people don't care about IQ in this market. And one is naive to think that the Foveon will make the difference no matter how big the sensor is, I think we all know it won't. So what I'm saying is if you want to make a presence don't come on with shortcomings of an f4 lens. I know I won't buy one at this specification because one loses the creative aspect already. Plus, I've never been interested in small cameras to start with but I might be interested if it does sport a high performance f2.8, which I doubt it will because Sigma could careless about being the best.

Larry

No matter what Sigma do they will not please everyone. If memory
serves Kazuto Yamaki discussed why they are going with the f4 "28mm"
lens for the DP1 at an earler PMA. Using a faster lens with this
size sensor in a compact camera is not as easy as some people think.

As the latest announcement on the DP1 reasserts, Sigma has been, and
is, focused on IQ and that will dictact what lens is used more than
anything else.

How much of a practical problem f4 will be for low light will be will
depend, in part, on how well the DP1 performs at higher iso. Given
the abysmal performance of many small cameras I suspect the DP1 may
surprise people.

But once again we are diving in speculating on problems every before
the camera is out. Let us wait and see what it can do.

In the meantime, I suggest you go out and shoot pictures with what
you have.

Pete

--
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=235

 

[LMC54]

If you think I'm kind of upset, I am.

To me Sigma is wasting too much time on this junk when it should be concentrating on producing the best dSLR.

Very angry and pi$$ed off, actually I could bite nails right now,
Larry

No matter what Sigma do they will not please everyone. If memory
serves Kazuto Yamaki discussed why they are going with the f4 "28mm"
lens for the DP1 at an earler PMA. Using a faster lens with this
size sensor in a compact camera is not as easy as some people think.

As the latest announcement on the DP1 reasserts, Sigma has been, and
is, focused on IQ and that will dictact what lens is used more than
anything else.

How much of a practical problem f4 will be for low light will be will
depend, in part, on how well the DP1 performs at higher iso. Given
the abysmal performance of many small cameras I suspect the DP1 may
surprise people.

But once again we are diving in speculating on problems every before
the camera is out. Let us wait and see what it can do.

In the meantime, I suggest you go out and shoot pictures with what
you have.

Pete

--
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=235

 

[BarrytheB]

LMC54 wrote:
'which I doubt it will because Sigma could careless
about being the best.'

That's pretty strong condemnation for a small company striving to compete with corporations with 50 or 100 times the income and manpower.

I don't get why everyone is whining about a slow lens- how often do you shoot f2.8 @ 28mm? If the light is that poor I try to keep the lens stopped down a little for IQ and stabilize the camera.

Maybe instead of constantly ragging on Sigma we should demonstate some brand loyalty. I believe they have acheived some remarkable product development the past few years. I haven't seen a Tamron or Tokina TD14

--
Barry Byrd
http://www.pbase.com/barryb
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr

 

[LMC54]

I have my reasons and yes it is a strong statement.
As far as I'm concerned, being small is a bad excuse for using cheap parts.

As my pappy use to say give your customer the best and charge accordingly or it will come back to haunt you. If they want to make a compact (a big waste of time and resources) by all means do it right and don't cut corners.

LMC54 wrote:
'which I doubt it will because Sigma could careless
about being the best.'

That's pretty strong condemnation for a small company striving to
compete with corporations with 50 or 100 times the income and
manpower.
I don't get why everyone is whining about a slow lens- how often do
you shoot f2.8 @ 28mm? If the light is that poor I try to keep the
lens stopped down a little for IQ and stabilize the camera.
Maybe instead of constantly ragging on Sigma we should demonstate
some brand loyalty. I believe they have acheived some remarkable
product development the past few years. I haven't seen a Tamron or
Tokina TD14

--
Barry Byrd
http://www.pbase.com/barryb
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr

--
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=235

 

[SandyF]

Nothing is easy in life. To be great one has to over come the
impossible and go beyond the norm. There is already a market in
place for cheap small cameras with tiny apertures. I do not see Sigma
making head waves into the compact camera market with the
specifications that are already in place. Most people don't care
about IQ in this market. And one is naive to think that the Foveon
will make the difference no matter how big the sensor is, I think we
all know it won't. So what I'm saying is if you want to make a
presence don't come on with shortcomings of an f4 lens. I know I
won't buy one at this specification because one loses the creative
aspect already. Plus, I've never been interested in small cameras to
start with but I might be interested if it does sport a high
performance f2.8, which I doubt it will because Sigma could careless
about being the best.

Larry

Larry, all,

everyone talks about a F2.8 or 'bigger' lens* than the initially planned 16.6mm... (16.6= 28mm equivalent in 35mm format terms)
also wilder stuff on the other forums even then here...

BUT has anyone calculated how large that lens would be to cover the 20.7x13.8mm sensor?? in a non-SLR body?
I have the impression rather large indeed...
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann

 

[LMC54]

I think my biggest point is.............
!%$#&

Ok a new compact is so so so nice huh?

Look, Sigma won't gain squat from this venture but a blackeye especially with a slow lens, most who use this camera will shoot in the dark or poor lights for family shots. They won't sell lenses for it so there is no gain there and at the moment spending all their camera building time on it when they should be spending all their resources on the SD14 to straighten out all the shortcomings. They should be beefing up the SD14 hardware wise and software wise with each new batch off the line.

Nothing is easy in life. To be great one has to over come the
impossible and go beyond the norm. There is already a market in
place for cheap small cameras with tiny apertures. I do not see Sigma
making head waves into the compact camera market with the
specifications that are already in place. Most people don't care
about IQ in this market. And one is naive to think that the Foveon
will make the difference no matter how big the sensor is, I think we
all know it won't. So what I'm saying is if you want to make a
presence don't come on with shortcomings of an f4 lens. I know I
won't buy one at this specification because one loses the creative
aspect already. Plus, I've never been interested in small cameras to
start with but I might be interested if it does sport a high
performance f2.8, which I doubt it will because Sigma could careless
about being the best.

Larry

Larry, all,
everyone talks about a F2.8 or 'bigger' lens* than the initially
planned 16.6mm... (16.6= 28mm equivalent in 35mm format terms)
also wilder stuff on the other forums even then here...
BUT has anyone calculated how large that lens would be to cover the
20.7x13.8mm sensor?? in a non-SLR body?
I have the impression rather large indeed...
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann

--
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=235

 

[SandyF]

read this http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=25838669 and think about the lens needed to cover the size of the sensor -- in a non DSLR package --

Larry: you're asking in effect, why should Sigma made a non-DSLR body? Answer I've always understood is to address the market, not of p&s casual photogs, but the market of (relatively) experienced photographers who won't buy the Sigma DSLR because they have other brand 'systems' and won't try a SD14 because of the lens interoperability situation. Solution: Sigma develops a camera (DP1) which a) doesn't need mounting lenses b) meets another important market criteria, desire for small size, ie portability in size, weight.

What are the alternatives? end up with a 'bridge' camera format, big, bulky to take the size lens needed to cover the sensor. Defeats the purpose of size, which is a big plus draw, along with the large size sensor.

My attitude is, get the DP1 out the factory door with the specs as in the current design (whatever they may be) THEN with that experience done, work on some alternatively, be it larger with zoom or different fixed prime or somewhat larger body format. And the experience (call it design R&D) is then also applicable to the next-generation DSLR as well as the next-gen compact.
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann

Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]

 

[LMC54]

Look if Sigma wants pros or new customers to experience the Foveon then IMO they are going about this all wrong. For one thing you don't put out a half baked version of a camera to bring new users nor have a track record of consumer quality based cameras. Do you realize how much a "Gooooooood" 28mm lens cost? I mean a lens that displays no corner softness and no CA and at all apertures? More than a SD14 for sure. So this tells me they are going to use a consumer type lens to make people switch to Foveon? In their dreams.

If Sigma wants a bigger user base they need to rethink their present system and go beyond the consumer type stuff.

Regards, really angry,
Larry

read this

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=25838669 and think about the lens needed to cover the size of the sensor -- in a non DSLR package --
Larry: you're asking in effect, why should Sigma made a non-DSLR
body? Answer I've always understood is to address the market, not of
p&s casual photogs, but the market of (relatively) experienced
photographers who won't buy the Sigma DSLR because they have other
brand 'systems' and won't try a SD14 because of the lens
interoperability situation. Solution: Sigma develops a camera (DP1)
which a) doesn't need mounting lenses b) meets another important
market criteria, desire for small size, ie portability in size,
weight.
What are the alternatives? end up with a 'bridge' camera format, big,
bulky to take the size lens needed to cover the sensor. Defeats the
purpose of size, which is a big plus draw, along with the large size
sensor.
My attitude is, get the DP1 out the factory door with the specs as in
the current design (whatever they may be) THEN with that experience
done, work on some alternatively, be it larger with zoom or different
fixed prime or somewhat larger body format. And the experience (call
it design R&D) is then also applicable to the next-generation DSLR as
well as the next-gen compact.
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann

Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]

--
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=235

 

[finalcutstudio]

My attitude is, get the DP1 out the factory door with the specs as in
the current design (whatever they may be) THEN with that experience
done, work on some alternatively, be it larger with zoom or different
fixed prime or somewhat larger body format. And the experience (call
it design R&D) is then also applicable to the next-generation DSLR as
well as the next-gen compact.

Totally agreed. Take the first step and worry about improvements later.

Sigma is not Leica, they will not put the best lens on a camera and expect you to pay 3k for it. Even for Leica, people wanted the M8 to be FF. But technology was/is not possible to reach its target price range. The same lack of cheaper technology is also hindering Sigma ala faster lens on the Dp1.

 

[Renatoa]

I'll bite.
Here is my opinion.
Sigma will elect to use a f4 lens because it will be easier, smaller
and cheaper to produce than the popular f2.8 variety. Also looking
into my cyrstal ball I see people complaining because they are
getting poor images shooting in bad light (as usual, you can't run
away from the fact most people can't understand this). IMO if Sigma
elects to use the the f4 route they might as well brace themselves
for complaints and bad images in poor light conditions (they will get
complaints anyways even with a f2.8 but at least you'll get less).
If the Foveon requires good light or lots of light then why install a
slow lens? If it was I, I would not be cheap on the lens and not
worry too much about a little extra cost or the extra small bulk of
the lens. For once I wish Sigma would steer away from being cheap
and put some extra costs into a device to make it optimal in all
respects. There is already too many cheap P&s cameras and not enough
highend small cameras. But I fear Sigma will not see this and tend to
try for the El Cheapo market even though they have highend dreams or
a revolutionary concept. Turning off my Cyrstal Ball.

Regards,
Larry

--
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=235

 

[light_reaction]

the important thing will be how sharp the lens is at F4. If it is as sharp as the 18-50 at F4 it is completely acceptable. The Focal length? I think one thing is not arguable and that is, better a bit too wide than a bit too narrow, particularly for the presumably "quicker" and more spontaneous photography the DP1 is designed for. I think in that poll a lot of errors occur because people mix up the actual focal length of the lens and the 35mm equivalent.

On the other hand, many people like to see the DP1 as a rangefinder/street photography camera. The (prime) lenses used on analog RFs often have max apertures of F/2 or better.
In total, there are three major segments of prospective buyers.

-The film rangefinder afficionados will typically be put off by the slow lens but not worry too much about the focal length.

-The other-Brand DSLR users will typically not shoot below F4 anyways, so if the lens is sharp enough at F4 they will be OK with it. However, they will be put off by the focal length. They want to see what the Foveon sensor is about but would prefer a 3x zoom like in their other compact cameras.

-Us. I guess for most of us the specs are OK. Personally I like wide lenses and with such I usually do not shoot wide open anyways.

To convince the first two groups, they need to be made to realize that their reference points (film RFs and Compact Digicams) are not really applicable. Which probably is not going to happen all too quickly since Sigma's Marketing is not intensive enough. Therefore, Sigma should get the camera right, then soon a lot of photos will be on the web whcih will get much of the buyers interested. The problem is that this takes too long, many people will buy when the camera is already on discount, which may affect profits (see UK rebate) or at least dealer trust. Probably in total it is still more economical for Sigma than intensive marketing.

O.
..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ollivr/
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/ollivr/popular-interesting/

 

[JLK]

What makes you think that they're not working on a next generation SLR? My impression is that they have at least three groups of engineers (lenses, dSLR, and the DP-1 guys)?

I don't think the DP-1 is going to sell nearly as many units as a Canon Powershot 11000-X, but it will likely do very well. And having held the preproduction unit, I can say that I'd be much more likely to carry it around all the time.

You make some interesting comments about Sigma cheaping out---I've found the SD14 to be an improvement in almost every area over the SD10 (I still miss the two dials, and the new Foveon sensor has a couple of quirks)---have you been bit with issues with yours?

--
Jim

 

[Laurence Matson]

. . . when refering to the DP1.

A major attraction of the DP1 is the size. If you put a faster lens on the front, such as f/2.8, it immediately becomes considerably larger. Going to the 2.0-1.4 range on some people's wish list just shows that they have no idea about how this would be engineered.

Look at the opposite for a hint. The 10-20 and the 12-24 are two very comparable lenses in terms of focal length and f/stop (12-24mm F4.5-5.6 vs. 10-20mm F4-5.6). Without going into the details for the "a little wider and a little faster" gang, the general specifications tell us something. The 10-20 weighs 470 g and the 12-24, 600 g. The physical dimensions are even more telling: the 10-20 has a diameter of 83.5 mm x 81 mm length, while the 12-24 is 87 mm x 102.5 mm respectively. (Were the 12-24 actually a 10-20 for full frame, the difference would be much larger.)

My point of the above has to do with the physical size of a lens related to the physical size of the imager (the 10-20 is for an image basically half the size of the one targeted by the 12-24), and this in response to all of the pundits yowling about all kind pray-and-shoot cameras with f/2.8 lenses, etc. Those cameras also have teeny imagers.

So they can poll all they want for the ideal this or that. But if they are so stupid as to ignore the engineering involved in the underlying concept, then it is just another bandwasting bit of nonsense.

This is not to say that Sigma might not produce a DPx down the road with a faster lens or a small, fast zoom. But that will be a very different concept (operative word again).

Mr. Yamaki made it clear that photographers considering the DP1 should think carefully about how they would like to use it in light of what it is and not in light of what they want it to be. I think he was chosing his words carefully. He was likely not saying that it will be stripped of all kinds of features as speculated elsewhere. Nor was he saying that folks should prepare themselves for a big letdown. I believe he was saying precisely what he said - strange as that concept may seem: Look at the camera, consider what it does, and decide whether you need it. To me, that sounds like refreshing advice in a world of knee-jerk gearheads (count me among them) who collect this stuff like trophies or who have to have the latest in a campaign of elative gushing and sly trashing (count veroman among them).

Rant over.

It seems that The Online Photographer hosts also very interesting
debates about DP-1 as this forum. No surprise, given the preference
of the owner for rangefinder type digital compacts.
The last is a poll about the most desired focal length for a fictious
DP1 reloaded:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2007/12/lens-poll.html

My choice match the majority from this moment. The actual Sigma
choice, 28 mm is the least popular.

--
Laurence

My idea of good company is the fellowship of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation and liberality of ideas.

Jane Austen

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com

 

[SandyF]

LMC54 wrote:
....

Do you realize how
much a "Gooooooood" 28mm lens cost? I mean a lens that displays no
corner softness and no CA and at all apertures? More than a SD14 for
sure. So this tells me they are going to use a consumer type lens to
make people switch to Foveon? In their dreams.

Larry, the lens is a 16.6mm -- and I would think it's structurally different than a mounting "good 28mm" .... aren't we talking about two different things. I understood they're designing/building in effect a new lens for the DP1.. it doesn't exist as a freestanding 16.6mm (EX or nonEX lens) If anyone can build such a lens well, I'd think it would be Sigma designers...

If Sigma wants a bigger user base they need to rethink their present
system and go beyond the consumer type stuff.

Disagree here, about 'go beyond the consumer type stuff' Sigma needs volume in my opinion. Where's volume? Not with a super xxMP high cost DSLR. Now too, I'm not sure I'd call the DP1 a "consumer type stuff" camera. It's a specialized compact. The market is already full of p&s cameras, have you looked at the seasonal ads? I think Sigma has determined several good differentiators, in effect what some call a 'niche' compact, but the volume #s could be decent with a) good product b) good, hands-on marketing.
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann

 

[LMC54]

We'll see, one of us has to be wrong.

I'm pretty confident I'm right now since you said it has a 16.6666mm, history tends to repeat.

Do you realize how
much a "Gooooooood" 28mm lens cost? I mean a lens that displays no
corner softness and no CA and at all apertures? More than a SD14 for
sure. So this tells me they are going to use a consumer type lens to
make people switch to Foveon? In their dreams.

Larry, the lens is a 16.6mm -- and I would think it's structurally
different than a mounting "good 28mm" .... aren't we talking about
two different things. I understood they're designing/building in
effect a new lens for the DP1.. it doesn't exist as a freestanding
16.6mm (EX or nonEX lens) If anyone can build such a lens well, I'd
think it would be Sigma designers...

If Sigma wants a bigger user base they need to rethink their present
system and go beyond the consumer type stuff.

Disagree here, about 'go beyond the consumer type stuff' Sigma needs
volume in my opinion. Where's volume? Not with a super xxMP high cost
DSLR. Now too, I'm not sure I'd call the DP1 a "consumer type stuff"
camera. It's a specialized compact. The market is already full of p&s
cameras, have you looked at the seasonal ads? I think Sigma has
determined several good differentiators, in effect what some call a
'niche' compact, but the volume #s could be decent with a) good
product b) good, hands-on marketing.
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann

--
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=235

 

[LMC54]

Hi Jim.

What makes you think that they're not working on a next generation
SLR? My impression is that they have at least three groups of
engineers (lenses, dSLR, and the DP-1 guys)?

I don't think the DP-1 is going to sell nearly as many units as a
Canon Powershot 11000-X, but it will likely do very well. And having
held the preproduction unit, I can say that I'd be much more likely
to carry it around all the time.

You make some interesting comments about Sigma cheaping out---I've
found the SD14 to be an improvement in almost every area over the
SD10 (I still miss the two dials, and the new Foveon sensor has a
couple of quirks)---have you been bit with issues with yours?

--
Jim

--
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=235

 

[NarrBL]

Hi Larry,

Do appreciate your frustrations.

I am just thinking that by the evidence of many years, the camera business is kind of ferocious, and not less now.

In developing a new thing, as you probably find in your own business, it is very healthy to have diversity - more than one progress going on.

This is especially true in a technology business, as you often enough have roadblocks that wait on something or someone to make the next step possible.

Also as I think Laurence has tried to suggest, there's a lot of mileage to be made for all the Sigma cameras, by opening up new markets like the one with professionals and advanced photographers which the DP-1 has stated for its intent.

It's frustrating, I know, to have many of the young-equipment-and-monkey crowd descend on this with their demanding attitudes, but I suspect Sigma is keeping their own attention well focused where it will actually do the most good.

Anyway, my intent is to suggest that the DP-1 effort isn't taking away from the SD. I know there are a few loopholes apparently left unexamined in stating this, but also that it is 'possible' these may have some proper answers.

With regards,
Clive

What makes you think that they're not working on a next generation
SLR? My impression is that they have at least three groups of
engineers (lenses, dSLR, and the DP-1 guys)?

I don't think the DP-1 is going to sell nearly as many units as a
Canon Powershot 11000-X, but it will likely do very well. And having
held the preproduction unit, I can say that I'd be much more likely
to carry it around all the time.

You make some interesting comments about Sigma cheaping out---I've
found the SD14 to be an improvement in almost every area over the
SD10 (I still miss the two dials, and the new Foveon sensor has a
couple of quirks)---have you been bit with issues with yours?

--
Jim

--
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=235