Why No D-SLR In-Camera Stabilization

How immature of you to bring up sales, which in no way, shape or form reflect black and white quality. Canon and Nikon have the name-brand recognition even though their consumer cameras are in many cases outclassed by similar offerings by Sony and Pentax.

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Would the introduction of in body IS in the entry level DSLRS for Canon and Nikon cannlibalize sales of their own P&S line up such as the G7, S5IS and P5000?

Just a thought I have.
 
Why the ad homenim attack? You fail to refute my assertion, so you attack me. Now THAT's immature.

Fact: in-camera stabilization does not produce a difference significant enough (if any difference at all) to make people flock to it in abandonment of in-lens stabilization.
How immature of you to bring up sales, which in no way, shape or
form reflect black and white quality. Canon and Nikon have the
name-brand recognition even though their consumer cameras are in
many cases outclassed by similar offerings by Sony and Pentax.
How are they "outclassed" except in your mind? Sony (i.e. Konica-Minolta), Pentax, and Olympus make fine cameras, but their technology is hardly innovative, and makes not enough difference to make enough difference.

Tiger Woods can play golf better than just about anybody in the world even with the cheapest mickey mouse golf clubs. But when he's up against the best, he uses the best tools. Just like pro photographers tend to choose Canon and Nikon over other brands, not because they are significantly different, but for tiny, incremental differences that help them compete or at least stay even with other pros.

Ever since the DSLR revolution, I personally have not seen a single pro DSLR shooter using Sony, Pentax, or Olympus. I'm sure some do, and I'm sure they do well with their gear. But I've not seen or met them.

If you want to be defensive about your choice of gear, that's your right. But don't call me immature for pointing out the popularity of other gear or that your gear offers no significant advantage, despite your fan-boi-ism for in-camera stabilization.
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Agreed. People become brand loyalists instead of judging individual cameras based on independent test reports like dpreview's. A shame IMO. If we were all to equate total sales with quality, guess what is the finest restaurant in America? Answer: McDonalds!
 
1. Provide solid scientifically derived proof that lens based IS is
better than in-camera IS.
It is better than in-camera IS because you can see the effect of IS
in the viewfinder when you're framing. That's not scientific
evidence that the results you get are better, but it is a feature
of in-lens IS that differentiates its value from in-body IS. This
might not be all that critical at 35mm to 135mm equivalent FoV, but
on a 600mm lens on a 1.6x body (960mm FoV equivalent), the camera
shake seriously impacts framing, and IS makes composing images
significantly better.
I have had no problems framing at 300mm using my inbody IS. I did at first glance like the 30D with the IS lens because of the stable viewfinder. But I have also run into people who get something simluar to motion sickness with a stablized lens,because the eye and the inner ear are out of sync. So it may not be universally best... though I see some advantage at very long lenghts.
Also, no implementation of IS in body currently works on
"full-frame" sensor sizes (which is to say that no manufacturer
today makes such a system not that it isn't possible). Larger
sensors have additional benefits including the ability to have
narrower DoF and more surface area per pixel (at same resolution).
The larger surface area leads to more sensitivity, which somewhat
reduces the need for IS.
Since the most popular FF DSLR is a Canon 5D with a target market that will also buy more espensive lenses. This is circular reasoning.
IS in a lens can be transferred from camera to camera. IS in a
camera works with all lenses. Most of Canon's and Nikon's newest
lenses have IS systems built-in. I was using the 600mm f/4L IS two
weekends ago, and I'm quite glad that the IS unit was built into
that lens, just like I'm quite glad that the AF unit was built into
the lens. The IS worked very, very well and it was designed for the
focal length actually used by the lens.
If the system is all IS in body.. then it doesn't matter about "moving it from boy to body and all A-Mount DLSRs Sony and KM are IS enabled.

In lens IS is needed for Film.. though I have a film body I bought recently to give me the choice.. I don't use it. The advantages of digital with the current sensor quality trump most DSLR uses of film.
2. DSLR users tend to keep lenses and change bodies rather than the
other way around. So even if Canikon upgraded the in-lens IS, the
user probably wouldn't.
Really? Have you done or are you referring to a study that actually
suggests this, or is this your "gut feeling"? What about SLR users
and DSLR users? IS has been around longer than DSLRs, and it works
on SLRs. Before you ask for "scientific proof", maybe you should
back up your claims.
Look at the price of 6 year old bodies vs 6 year old lenses its pretty obvious. Even in the film days the Body features and designs changed every 3 years or so, while some lense designs would last a decade.. this alone would reduce the need to "upgrade" Unless you think it is common for people to spend money for a new version of what they already have that is working.
It's really hard to scientifically say if one technology in general
(with several vendors implementing variations) is better than
another technology (with several other vendors implementing
variations). Phil and co. review these cameras and estimate how
many acceptably sharp shots they get in their reviews, but it's an
imperfect review. The most you can get out of their reviews is a
rough feeling for how well the technologies implemented in the
specific reviewed products work. To what extent the technology
works for any given user depends on their technique/how well they
hold a camera.
Agreed.. so you are agreeing there is no definative proof as to which is better. It will vary by the needs of the user.
My keeper rate is much higher for my IS lenses, particularly in low
light at telephoto focal lengths. For wider angles (15-30mm x1.6),
softness from camera shake at slower speeds just isn't an issue I
have a problem with.
This is a shot on an old shaking train car with my 10-20.. I am glad I had some IS helping me out. It is one of my favorite pictures of my daughter from when she was 2 yrs old. Below it is a shot I took with one hand holding the camera out of the train window again with the 10-20... those that assume IS with wider lenses isn't useful, may just have not imagined the possiblities...





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Ken - KM 5D
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com
 
The main advantage of in body IS is that it's cheaper. Might be a
little less effective, but the cost difference is huge, when
looking at three or four lenses. However, if the in body IS that
Pentax, Sony/Minolta, and Olympus now feature on their dslr's
continues to drive sales, I wouldn't be surprised to see in body IS
appear on some low end C/N bodies.
I completely agree--nobody is constrained to one or the other type of IS. Canon and Nikon could and would put it in low end bodies if needed to protect that market. Conversely, Pentax et al could and would put it in high-end telephoto lenses if they decided it was needed to break in to that market.

Bart
--
http://zumbari.zenfolio.com
 
Fact: in-camera stabilization does not produce a difference
significant enough (if any difference at all) to make people flock
to it in abandonment of in-lens stabilization.

If you want to be defensive about your choice of gear, that's your
right. But don't call me immature for pointing out the popularity
of other gear or that your gear offers no significant advantage,
despite your fan-boi-ism for in-camera stabilization.
So how many short focal length (
 
... the makers of in-camera stab. systems are , combined,
outselling both Nikon and Canon... NOT!
Guess that means those Hasselblads are just junk because more Rebels are sold.

Brand, Marketing go a long way to keeping #1 in #1 place.

How many of those Rebel / D40 buyers that swell the sales count are even buying IS lenses?

The number of bodies sold has nothing to do with a choice of stabilzation technologies. Canon and Nikon have enough name recongnition people with no research buy them much like voting for a Bush or a Clinton these days.

------------
Ken - KM 5D
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com
 
You, too, are missing my point.

I never said any brand was junk. I contend only that in-camera vs. in-lens stabilization makes no difference significant enough to effect meaningful change in market share.

Canon and Nikon had big leads in DSLR sales at pro and consumer level, and they still do. And I bet they still will in the future.

If in-camera stab. was such a great benefit, mightn't we see a few pros looking for a qualitative edge switching from in-lens stab?

Bueller? Bueller? Anybody? Anybody?
... the makers of in-camera stab. systems are , combined,
outselling both Nikon and Canon... NOT!
Guess that means those Hasselblads are just junk because more
Rebels are sold.

Brand, Marketing go a long way to keeping #1 in #1 place.

How many of those Rebel / D40 buyers that swell the sales count are
even buying IS lenses?

The number of bodies sold has nothing to do with a choice of
stabilzation technologies. Canon and Nikon have enough name
recongnition people with no research buy them much like voting for
a Bush or a Clinton these days.

------------
Ken - KM 5D
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com
--
[email protected]
 
You, too, are missing my point.

If in-camera stab. was such a great benefit, mightn't we see a few
pros looking for a qualitative edge switching from in-lens stab?

Bueller? Bueller? Anybody? Anybody?
Are there any pro-style camera bodies with in-camera stabilization? I didn't think there was anything yet. Canon has a very large selection of pro-grade lenses--especially in the telephoto range. So pro's that need that sort of reach would go Canon anyway, IS or not.

Besides, I think for Pentax's part they are trying to get market share in the non-pro market or maybe low-end pro market. The k10d has been extremely successful for them--a lot more successful than even they anticipated.

Bart
--
http://zumbari.zenfolio.com
 
Would the introduction of in body IS in the entry level DSLRS for
Canon and Nikon cannlibalize sales of their own P&S line up such as
the G7, S5IS and P5000?
I don't think so.

I don't see people giving up higher end P&S because of IS. Those who are keen on getting into DSLR will do it with or without IS, be it in-lens or on-body. What moves (at least in theory) someone into the DSLR world is the flexibility one gets from the camera. IS is secondary.

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Best regards,

Bruno Lobo.



http://www.pbase.com/brunobl
 
Can your theory explain why Sony charges $600 more for a 70-200mm
f2.8 without stabilization than Nikon and Canon charge for the same
lens with stabilization. And it's not optical quality, the Sony is
not the leader of that pack.
Clearly the cost is not ONLY a IS/non IS issue and other factors
come into it.
Yes. Since Canon and Nikon have MUCH larger pro communities, the quantities of 70-200 f/2.8 lenses they sell dwarf that of Sony/Minolta. When you mass produce something, costs go down. I wouldn't be surprised if Canon sold 1,000 70-200's for each that Sony sells.
I think lens systems are an overall better value, but body systems
have the added ability to stabilize lenses that would be very
difficult with lens based systems, like an 85mm f1.4 or a 105mm or
135mm f2.0.
I do not understand how an in lens could be regarded as better value.
Because a professional will buy many more bodies over a career than lenses. Let's say a Canon user buys the 17-55 f/2.8 IS and a 70-200 f/2.8 IS. He's purchased two IS units. Over a 40 year career he's likely to buy ten cameras, but has only paid for two IS units.
 
From Canon and Nikon ?
To sell another IS system to the same customer every time he buys a
new lens. Great way to make money fast.
How about this plan "to make money fast".

Sony charges customers $600 more for a non-stabilized 70-200mm
f2.8 than Nikon and Canon charge for a stabilized one.

And a working pro buys bodies at a faster rate than medium or long
telephoto lenses, so it's the body based systems that sell more
stabilizers.

Game, set, and match.
Nice try.
A working pro doesn't only buy medium or long lenses. He usually
has a wide range of lenses, all with IS if Nikon and Canon have
some say (and it seems they do) on his choices.

Checkmate.
You may be unfamiliar with chess. Checkmate is what you say when you win.

How often does a pro need a stabilized short lens?

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Doesn't matter where you put an angular rate sensor on a rigid
body. You don't think they use linear accelerometers?
Yes, actually, I think they do.

In pairs. Take the difference and it's a lot better at high
frequencies than a rotational accelerometer.
In other words, you want to extract an angular acceleration signal
from two differenced displaced linear accelerometers. Either way
it's the same thing, the angular signal will be the same wherever
you are on the rigid body. Hence it still doesn't matter whether
you put the sensors in the lens or the body.
Except that the signal magnitude is larger when the distance between the linear accelorometers is greater. Long lenses allow larger displacements than the body.
MEMS angular rate sensors have excellent performance, typical
performance of 300 degrees/s, 0.1 degrees/s/root Hz, 0.1%
non-linearity, kHz bandwith. Most importantly, this performance is
cheap.

Taking the difference of two linear accelerometers which are
displaced by millimetres will not give you a very clean signal.
Then how about 10s or hundreds of millimeters?
Taking the difference of two similar quantities usually doesn't
give you a very good signal to noise ratio, especially if the
individual signals are subject to drift. And the frequencies of
physiological tremor aren't all that high, maximum of tens of
hertz, typically in the teens.

I don't really think that coupled linear accelerometers would be
used in this application.
I know they are.
They'd measure angular acceleration, not
the ideal signal since the correction signal (displacement of
decentering group or image sensor) is the angular displacement
which is the acceleration signal twice integrated, rather than just
a single integral of angular rate leading to even greater low
frequency noise sensitivity. Since the frequencies of interest are
quite low, drift of each of the paired linear accelerometers would
be disasterous.

You'll have to go back to the drawing board with this idea.
So will the camera manufacturers who are using it, I guess.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Very good point!:
Agreed. People become brand loyalists instead of judging individual
cameras based on independent test reports like dpreview's. A shame
IMO. If we were all to equate total sales with quality, guess what
is the finest restaurant in America? Answer: McDonalds!
best regards,

Nic
 
I reported you to the moderator of DPReview for saying my comment is dumb.
And as stabilization technology improves, you can always upgrade to
it via the lens. If your body had stabilization version 1.0, you're
stuck with it as long as you have your SLR body, even if version
2.0 is on the market.
When you are talking about a $1700 lens, the incentive to upgrade
to a new body is every bit as cost effective as a lens upgrade!

SHEESH!

If it bothers you, buy an Olympus E510, it has in body image
stabilization, PLUS it uses the Leica 4/3s lenses with in lens IS.

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photos. . .
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It's STILL gonna be a dumb statement!

You need to develop a thicker skin! The people on these forums are CANNIBALS and they will eat you alive if you let them!

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