Foveon and the X3

Valliesto Bailey

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As I read the quote from the JCIA guidelines, the X3 is not a 10.3MP sensor since it only has a single sensor. While I am impressed by the technology, I feel that any attempt to mislabel the sensor as having 10.3mp is misleading at best and outright disception at worst.

I'd bet Foveon is happy to tell users the X3 is a 10mp sensor, but in reality it does not track. If there are only 3 million photosites it is a 3mp sensor.

It is a shame that such promising technology has been subjected to this marketing hookum.--Valliesto
 
It is 3.5MP for the file size.
But the actual quality of picture is > 10mp.
It is still 3.5MP for the picture size.
Since the quality is the matter, what more do we need?
Smaller file size and better quality!

I do not see any Foveon's attemp to mislead users.
As I read the quote from the JCIA guidelines, the X3 is not a
10.3MP sensor since it only has a single sensor. While I am
impressed by the technology, I feel that any attempt to mislabel
the sensor as having 10.3mp is misleading at best and outright
disception at worst.

I'd bet Foveon is happy to tell users the X3 is a 10mp sensor, but
in reality it does not track. If there are only 3 million
photosites it is a 3mp sensor.


It is a shame that such promising technology has been subjected to
this marketing hookum.
--
Valliesto
 
This sensor has 10 million photosites in 3 dimensions (only 3.5 million in 2D spacially). If you look at the raw file size, you will see that it contains 3 times more information than a 3.3 Mpixel standard image sensor.

Chris
As I read the quote from the JCIA guidelines, the X3 is not a
10.3MP sensor since it only has a single sensor. While I am
impressed by the technology, I feel that any attempt to mislabel
the sensor as having 10.3mp is misleading at best and outright
disception at worst.

I'd bet Foveon is happy to tell users the X3 is a 10mp sensor, but
in reality it does not track. If there are only 3 million
photosites it is a 3mp sensor.


It is a shame that such promising technology has been subjected to
this marketing hookum.
--
Valliesto
--Chris
 
They will have to figure out something better now and we should not
limit our thought process by some old (pre-foveon) guidelines.
--
Best wishes,
Zoli
Correct.

Someday maybe somebody can explain the Cubic displacement of a Wankel engine. Using one method, which is arguably fair, the internal size of the engine is larger than the outside.

Homer
 
It is 3.5MP for the file size.
But the actual quality of picture is > 10mp.
Sorry wrong. The imager is 3.5mp, it has 48bit pixels but is still only 3.5mp.
It is still 3.5MP for the picture size.
Since the quality is the matter, what more do we need?
Proof that it will produce better images and be a competitive technology. I hope it is all that people want it to be.
Smaller file size and better quality!

I do not see any Foveon's attemp to mislead users.
Calling a 3.5mp sensor 10mp is misleading and false.
As I read the quote from the JCIA guidelines, the X3 is not a
10.3MP sensor since it only has a single sensor. While I am
impressed by the technology, I feel that any attempt to mislabel
the sensor as having 10.3mp is misleading at best and outright
disception at worst.

I'd bet Foveon is happy to tell users the X3 is a 10mp sensor, but
in reality it does not track. If there are only 3 million
photosites it is a 3mp sensor.


It is a shame that such promising technology has been subjected to
this marketing hookum.
--
Valliesto
--Valliesto
 
I agree. We need a way to describe this new technology that will give it credit where it deserves it. I feel that calling it a 10mp sensor is not the correct way to do so. Calling the X3 a 3.5mp x 3 camera, makes it seem like there are 3 chips inside, I guess it could be an accurate way to describe the technology. But I just hope for a better description.
They will have to figure out something better now and we should not
limit our thought process by some old (pre-foveon) guidelines.
--
Best wishes,
Zoli
--Valliesto
 
Calling a 3.5mp sensor 10mp is misleading and false.
Calling a sensor that reads 4 mllion green values, 2 million blue values and 2 million red values as 6MP sensor is misleading and false.

Two thirds of the data are invented by the camera.

Do you think that the Fuji S2 will be a 12MP camera? I suspect not because you're offended by interpolation. Why do you think it's OK for Bayer sensor cameras to invent numbers but not OK for SuperCCD cameras to do so?

--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
I am not sure where you are going with this. I visited the Foveon site and I really don't see evidence of them making any outlandish or misrepresentative claims.

The 10.5 million effective photodetectors is by any technical measure completely, unequivocally legitmate. That IS how many sensors are in the imaging area.

They also state the array size as 2268 x 1512 x 3, I am not sure how you would suggest stating it, but it seems quite clear to me. Foveon is not making any riduculous statements, unlike Fuji was with their Super CCD, where they interpolate even more pixels than do standard Bayer CFA imagers do.

Lets take a step back for a moment though, in a standard Bayer CFA area, if you take an area of 2 pixels vertical by 2 pixels horizontal, the sensor will have 2 green pixels, 1 blue and one red arranged as such:

RG
GB

whereas the Foveon chip will have 4 red 4 blue and 4 green sensors. So in red and blue Foveon has 4 times the sensors as other typical sensors. In red and blue Foveon could claim 14MP "equivalent capability". In green they have twice the number of sensors so perhaps they could claim 7MP "equivalent capabiltiy" perhaps you would prefer that.

According to the Nyquist theorem the Foveon chip should have substantially better resolution performance particularly if looking at pure red green or blue. The only problem is the theorem only really predicts ultimate resolution for high contrast images in black and white. An image formed from bayer pattern imager plays a little havoc with the theorm. The simple fact of the matter is 3 times the information is being captured by the Foveon chip than a standard 3.5 MP camera.

I suspect that you will find the resolution performance of the Foveon chip quite impressive. If you download any of the resolution charts that Phil shoots and magnify them 800 to 1600% you can clearly see the effects of pixel interpolation. On one side of a black line the pixels are slightly green-grey, the other side red-grey. As you get to the limits of resolution the pixels blend together and there are often strange color effects in this area as the algorithm mis-interprets the data. These effects should be absent in the Foveon chip.

Though a resolution chart might not show resolution being much better than perhaps a 6MP sensor when measuring a high contrast B+W image, the performance is likely to be much better than a 6MP sensor in lower contast conditions. Unfortunately for Foveon, there is yet to be a 10MP sensor to which it can compare itself to.

John Bower
I agree. We need a way to describe this new technology that will
give it credit where it deserves it. I feel that calling it a 10mp
sensor is not the correct way to do so. Calling the X3 a 3.5mp x 3
camera, makes it seem like there are 3 chips inside, I guess it
could be an accurate way to describe the technology. But I just
hope for a better description.
 
As I read the quote from the JCIA guidelines, the X3 is not a
10.3MP sensor since it only has a single sensor. While I am
impressed by the technology, I feel that any attempt to mislabel
the sensor as having 10.3mp is misleading at best and outright
disception at worst.

I'd bet Foveon is happy to tell users the X3 is a 10mp sensor, but
in reality it does not track. If there are only 3 million
photosites it is a 3mp sensor.
Foveon is not telling that is three times the resolution or 3 times bigger surface. This has been explained in many ways in this forums. They are telling it has three outputs per pixel, one for red, one for green and one for blue. You could achieve this by using three separate sensors, one capturing all red, one capturing all green, and one capturing all red colors.
Although that would have alignment problems with the pixel mapping...
So you do indeed read 3 times more data from the X3 Foveon CCD.

Jack.
It is a shame that such promising technology has been subjected to
this marketing hookum.
--
Valliesto
 
All this discussion here in relation to digital interpolation and theoretical comparisons between Foveon and Bayer technology makes me realise how good film is, with no interpolation for each colour. Fujicolor Superia 100 and Superia 200 also use their 4th Color Layer Technology, one layer additional to Foveon. Film is not too bad after all.--Geoff
 
Calling a 3.5mp sensor 10mp is misleading and false.
Calling a sensor that reads 4 mllion green values, 2 million blue
values and 2 million red values as 6MP sensor is misleading and
false.
The above mentioned numbers would be for a 8Mp sensor, I think.

A 6Mp sensor only captures 1.5Mp red and 1.5Mp blue, 3.0Mp green.
Result:
Red: 75% is invented by the camera.
Blue: 75% is invented by the camera.
The most important color is green: 50% invented by the camera.

But Fuji would interpolate 6.0Mp to 12Mp.
Result:
Red: 87.5% is invented by the camera.
Blue: 87.5% is invented by the camera.
The most important color is green: 75% invented by the camera.

Jack.
Two thirds of the data are invented by the camera.

Do you think that the Fuji S2 will be a 12MP camera? I suspect not
because you're offended by interpolation. Why do you think it's OK
for Bayer sensor cameras to invent numbers but not OK for SuperCCD
cameras to do so?

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
The above mentioned numbers would be for a 8Mp sensor, I think.

A 6Mp sensor only captures 1.5Mp red and 1.5Mp blue, 3.0Mp green.
Result:
Red: 75% is invented by the camera.
Blue: 75% is invented by the camera.
The most important color is green: 50% invented by the camera.
Yes - I corrected that last night.
But Fuji would interpolate 6.0Mp to 12Mp.
Result:
Red: 87.5% is invented by the camera.
Blue: 87.5% is invented by the camera.
The most important color is green: 75% invented by the camera.
Right.

The part I don't get is how people can seemingly hold the following views simultaneoulsy:
  • Fuji's interpolated resolution is bogus
  • Bayer pattern interpolation is "real"
  • Foveon is exaggerating their claims
I guess people think that sampling a tiny fraction of the information for a pixel is both necessary and sufficient for something to be a "real" pixel.

--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
I guess people think that sampling a tiny fraction of the
information for a pixel is both necessary and sufficient for
something to be a "real" pixel.
A pixel is a picture element. It has a size and a color. The Foveon pixels may be more accurate or come from measured rather than interpolated data, but for each type of sensor, a pixel is a pixel.

The distinction should be made in the TYPE of sensor rather than the NUMBER of pixels. We could call the Foveon a "3.4mpF" sensor (meaning Foveon type).

Gary Eickmeier
 
The 10.5 million effective photodetectors is by any technical
measure completely, unequivocally legitmate. That IS how many
sensors are in the imaging area.
Photodetectors is not what is claimed, or what is being argued. We are talking about PIXELS. They claim to have three times as many PIXELS as a Bayer sensor.
They also state the array size as 2268 x 1512 x 3, I am not sure
how you would suggest stating it, but it seems quite clear to me.
They say 2268 x 1512 x 3 mp, or 3.5mp x 3 pixels. You've got to be precise when reading technical information.
Though a resolution chart might not show resolution being much
better than perhaps a 6MP sensor when measuring a high contrast B+W
image, the performance is likely to be much better than a 6MP
sensor in lower contast conditions. Unfortunately for Foveon, there
is yet to be a 10MP sensor to which it can compare itself to.
I'm thinking that color resolution is not as critical as monochrome resolution. The Bayer's Achilles heel is that it has to interpolate to get the color of each pixel.

So how much does that really hurt the overall resolution?

Gary Eickmeier
 
With your logic the answer would be 9. Depth DOES have meaning.

When you count the rooms in a multi-level building, do you only count those on the top floor?

Think about what you just posted in light of the fact that every pixel in a Foveon is the SUM RESULT of THREE color sensors.

This is an X-Y-Z world and you're viewing it in the X-Y!
As I read the quote from the JCIA guidelines, the X3 is not a
10.3MP sensor since it only has a single sensor. While I am
impressed by the technology, I feel that any attempt to mislabel
the sensor as having 10.3mp is misleading at best and outright
disception at worst.

I'd bet Foveon is happy to tell users the X3 is a 10mp sensor, but
in reality it does not track. If there are only 3 million
photosites it is a 3mp sensor.


It is a shame that such promising technology has been subjected to
this marketing hookum.
--
Valliesto
 
I guess people think that sampling a tiny fraction of the
information for a pixel is both necessary and sufficient for
something to be a "real" pixel.
A pixel is a picture element. It has a size and a color. The Foveon
pixels may be more accurate or come from measured rather than
interpolated data, but for each type of sensor, a pixel is a pixel.
For Bayer sensors, a pixel is (apprently) something that records one of an R, G, or B value. I don't like this definition, but if we accept it, then Foveon has 3X more.

--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 

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