S2 obsolete before it's even out.

[Michael Brown]

Read the news on the dpreview front page about the new Foveon CCD and it's clear that any camera using a traditional CCD (and I include Fuji Super-CCD here) will soon be obsolete.

Clearly the Sigma SD9 isn't suddenly going to become a reference camera but I'm assuming that Foveon have entered into agreements with other Camera mfrs. and we'll soon be seeing Foveon CCD based cameras from Nikon, Canon, Olypmus etc.

Since Fuji have persisted with their own unique CCD tech it seems unlikely that Foveon reached an agreement with them so they might find themselves left out in the cold with yesterday's tech.

Now is definitely NOT the time to buy a new digital camera - the future looks bright though!

Michael.-- http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

 

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Err...I am afraid you are buying in to the hype a little too much.

The Fuji S2 and indeed the super CCD are still likely to be way ahead of the 3.47 megapixel foveon for the forseeable future. Foveon have done an excellent marketing job at the launch of their new chip, but I'd wager there is a lot of life left in the "old" technology for some time to come.

And who knows what other, new developments might be around the corner from others?

It will be at least a year before foveon resolution catches up with the current top end represented by the likes of Fuji with their S2.

I'm still plannning on buying an S2. My S1 is great, and the pictures it takes are no worse after the foveon announcement than they were before it.
--
Q

Read the news on the dpreview front page about the new Foveon CCD
and it's clear that any camera using a traditional CCD (and I
include Fuji Super-CCD here) will soon be obsolete.

Clearly the Sigma SD9 isn't suddenly going to become a reference
camera but I'm assuming that Foveon have entered into agreements
with other Camera mfrs. and we'll soon be seeing Foveon CCD based
cameras from Nikon, Canon, Olypmus etc.

Since Fuji have persisted with their own unique CCD tech it seems
unlikely that Foveon reached an agreement with them so they might
find themselves left out in the cold with yesterday's tech.

Now is definitely NOT the time to buy a new digital camera - the
future looks bright though!

Michael.
--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

 

[Michael Brown]

True, I did put a little bit of a slant on my message to catch people's attention I own an Olympus E-10 which I'm prepared to accepts is not as good a camera as the S1 (and obviously S2) and obviously everything I said applies to my camera too.

As you said, your S1 images (and my E-10 images) aren't made any worse with the announcement of the Foveon CCD and clearly any good non-foveon camera around now or coming out in the near future is still going to be a good and useable camera so it won't be obsolete in that sense.

It's just a shame for Fuji that just as they announce what could well be the benchmark DSLR (S2) that their thunder is stolen by a new technology which means everything that went before is now old technology. I'm sure that in the long run Foveon will be far superior to Super-CCD or any other current CCD tech. Of course Fuji may well be working on something similar themselves.

From the Foveon samples that Phil showed I think it will be sooner (within next 6-12 months) rather than later that Foveon CCDs will way outperform anything current in terms of any measurable parameter.

Michael.

The Fuji S2 and indeed the super CCD are still likely to be way
ahead of the 3.47 megapixel foveon for the forseeable future.
Foveon have done an excellent marketing job at the launch of their
new chip, but I'd wager there is a lot of life left in the "old"
technology for some time to come.

And who knows what other, new developments might be around the
corner from others?

It will be at least a year before foveon resolution catches up with
the current top end represented by the likes of Fuji with their S2.

I'm still plannning on buying an S2. My S1 is great, and the
pictures it takes are no worse after the foveon announcement than
they were before it.
--
Q

Read the news on the dpreview front page about the new Foveon CCD
and it's clear that any camera using a traditional CCD (and I
include Fuji Super-CCD here) will soon be obsolete.

Clearly the Sigma SD9 isn't suddenly going to become a reference
camera but I'm assuming that Foveon have entered into agreements
with other Camera mfrs. and we'll soon be seeing Foveon CCD based
cameras from Nikon, Canon, Olypmus etc.

Since Fuji have persisted with their own unique CCD tech it seems
unlikely that Foveon reached an agreement with them so they might
find themselves left out in the cold with yesterday's tech.

Now is definitely NOT the time to buy a new digital camera - the
future looks bright though!

Michael.
--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

-- http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

 

[John Bagdovitz]

I think that the timing of the S2 was well planned since they "knew" that this new chip was coming out and would get alot of PR, thus stealing some of their thunder. Fuji got theirs out and created a "buzz" so that they are not completely overshadowed at PMA.

As far as the S2 being obsolete, we need to see alot more before that day comes.

John

As you said, your S1 images (and my E-10 images) aren't made any
worse with the announcement of the Foveon CCD and clearly any good
non-foveon camera around now or coming out in the near future is
still going to be a good and useable camera so it won't be obsolete
in that sense.

It's just a shame for Fuji that just as they announce what could
well be the benchmark DSLR (S2) that their thunder is stolen by a
new technology which means everything that went before is now old
technology. I'm sure that in the long run Foveon will be far
superior to Super-CCD or any other current CCD tech. Of course
Fuji may well be working on something similar themselves.

From the Foveon samples that Phil showed I think it will be sooner
(within next 6-12 months) rather than later that Foveon CCDs will
way outperform anything current in terms of any measurable
parameter.

Michael.

The Fuji S2 and indeed the super CCD are still likely to be way
ahead of the 3.47 megapixel foveon for the forseeable future.
Foveon have done an excellent marketing job at the launch of their
new chip, but I'd wager there is a lot of life left in the "old"
technology for some time to come.

And who knows what other, new developments might be around the
corner from others?

It will be at least a year before foveon resolution catches up with
the current top end represented by the likes of Fuji with their S2.

I'm still plannning on buying an S2. My S1 is great, and the
pictures it takes are no worse after the foveon announcement than
they were before it.
--
Q

Read the news on the dpreview front page about the new Foveon CCD
and it's clear that any camera using a traditional CCD (and I
include Fuji Super-CCD here) will soon be obsolete.

Clearly the Sigma SD9 isn't suddenly going to become a reference
camera but I'm assuming that Foveon have entered into agreements
with other Camera mfrs. and we'll soon be seeing Foveon CCD based
cameras from Nikon, Canon, Olypmus etc.

Since Fuji have persisted with their own unique CCD tech it seems
unlikely that Foveon reached an agreement with them so they might
find themselves left out in the cold with yesterday's tech.

Now is definitely NOT the time to buy a new digital camera - the
future looks bright though!

Michael.
--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

 

[KenEis]

Why do you day that? Favion is already higher resolution then the S2. I'm not saying the camera is better but the design and technology, not the marketing department's hype have leapfrogged all standard red blue green green CCDs and CMOS.

This engineering is a very good idea and should give better color fidelity period. How Sigma surrounds the chip might mean the S2 could give better pictures but also remember that one of Fuji's stengths is the interpolation scheme it uses. Guess what, the Sigma don't need no stinken interpolation scheme at all.

The Fuji S2 and indeed the super CCD are still likely to be way
ahead of the 3.47 megapixel foveon for the forseeable future.
Foveon have done an excellent marketing job at the launch of their
new chip, but I'd wager there is a lot of life left in the "old"
technology for some time to come.

And who knows what other, new developments might be around the
corner from others?

It will be at least a year before foveon resolution catches up with
the current top end represented by the likes of Fuji with their S2.

I'm still plannning on buying an S2. My S1 is great, and the
pictures it takes are no worse after the foveon announcement than
they were before it.
--
Q

Read the news on the dpreview front page about the new Foveon CCD
and it's clear that any camera using a traditional CCD (and I
include Fuji Super-CCD here) will soon be obsolete.

Clearly the Sigma SD9 isn't suddenly going to become a reference
camera but I'm assuming that Foveon have entered into agreements
with other Camera mfrs. and we'll soon be seeing Foveon CCD based
cameras from Nikon, Canon, Olypmus etc.

Since Fuji have persisted with their own unique CCD tech it seems
unlikely that Foveon reached an agreement with them so they might
find themselves left out in the cold with yesterday's tech.

Now is definitely NOT the time to buy a new digital camera - the
future looks bright though!

Michael.
--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

 

[William Carson]

Looking at the specs of the Sigma SD9 it is a very interesting technology. It occurs to me that it is similiar to the difference that inkjet and Diesub printers have. One dot in a diesub printer is premixed to the exact color whereas the inkjet represents one color from 4 to 6 dots. So the pixel resolution would be 4 times as great in effect as the conventional CCD. I also notice that the pixel size is very small (9 micrometers) so that might influence the noise and color depth in the resulting image. Whether it actually works as well is the question.
Will

Read the news on the dpreview front page about the new Foveon CCD
and it's clear that any camera using a traditional CCD (and I
include Fuji Super-CCD here) will soon be obsolete.

Clearly the Sigma SD9 isn't suddenly going to become a reference
camera but I'm assuming that Foveon have entered into agreements
with other Camera mfrs. and we'll soon be seeing Foveon CCD based
cameras from Nikon, Canon, Olypmus etc.

Since Fuji have persisted with their own unique CCD tech it seems
unlikely that Foveon reached an agreement with them so they might
find themselves left out in the cold with yesterday's tech.

Now is definitely NOT the time to buy a new digital camera - the
future looks bright though!

Michael.
--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

 

[Richard Greenough]

Err...I am afraid you are buying in to the hype a little too much.

I think we have to acknowledge what Foveon has accomplished! Foveon has created a 3.5 megapixel sensor that gets 10.5 million light samples per image (3.5 million red, 3.5 million green, and 3.5 million blue). A CCD sensor(including Fuji's SuperCCD) would only get 3.5 million samples (half of them green, a quarter red, and a quarter blue) and then interpolate them to a 3.5 megapixel image. There is a world of difference between these two approaches in terms of resolution, color fidelity, chromatic aberrations, and noise (and dynamic range I hope). I expect we are in for a price war between Sony and Foveon/National Semiconductor. Foveon should have the lower costs while Sony has a ton of money so it could go on for a while.

The New York Times article on the Foveon announcement includes the following statement:

"Because of the new technology's color-capturing technique, however, its designers say it is actually comparable to existing sensors with 7 million pixels that are currently available only in cameras costing $6,000 or more."

Foveon needs to prove it can produce its sensor in quantity and cheaply, but given that their approach takes advantage of standard CMOS production techniques, they should be able to do it. I'll acknowledge that the point and shoot crowd is unlikely to be able to tell the difference in image quality and if Sony can bring their production costs down then we may have CCD sensors for a long time. But if you want a higher quality image than the D1X gives and without spending a fortune, then you should be pinning your hopes on Foveon.

There's a chance that Sony or someone else has an equally innovative sensor in the works, but it's pretty remote.

 

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

Why do you day that? Favion is already higher resolution then the
S2.

No it does not. Its true resolution is better than current 3 megapixel designs, but not 3 times as good - you are confusing resolution with colour.

Yes, its a great chip etc etc, but don't go overboard . Lets wait and see a direct comparison with the Fuji / latest Canon etc. I'd be surprised if it won that battle, but we will have to wait until some reliable comparative reviews.
--
Q

 

[Anthony32599]

Nope, I don't think the S2 is obsolete yet. Look at the ISO sensitivity of the Foveon CCD and you'll see it's only up to ISO 400, with the option to boost to ISO 800 and ISO 1600. I think the colors look gorgeous, but there may be issues with how sensitive the chip is going to be to dim light.

And frankly, nothing is keeping Fuji from using a layered technology with the SuperCCD, other than however long it will take to develop it. A layered approach to the Super CCD would be fantastic IMHO.

At any rate, the S2, D1x, and other digital SLR's are not obsolete. Digital photography is still evolving and as near as I can tell, the prints from our current crop of digital SLR's are as good as anything or nearly as good as anything from our 35mm film cameras. The Foveon may be the next step, but it's too soon to tell. And for those of you who hate the 1.5 multiplier/crop factor, the Foveon is 1.7.

The best news for me is that this may help to keep the S2 price low.

Anthony

Read the news on the dpreview front page about the new Foveon CCD
and it's clear that any camera using a traditional CCD (and I
include Fuji Super-CCD here) will soon be obsolete.

Clearly the Sigma SD9 isn't suddenly going to become a reference
camera but I'm assuming that Foveon have entered into agreements
with other Camera mfrs. and we'll soon be seeing Foveon CCD based
cameras from Nikon, Canon, Olypmus etc.

Since Fuji have persisted with their own unique CCD tech it seems
unlikely that Foveon reached an agreement with them so they might
find themselves left out in the cold with yesterday's tech.

Now is definitely NOT the time to buy a new digital camera - the
future looks bright though!

Michael.
--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

 

[Michael Martin]

Read the news on the dpreview front page about the new Foveon CCD
and it's clear that any camera using a traditional CCD (and I
include Fuji Super-CCD here) will soon be obsolete.

Clearly the Sigma SD9 isn't suddenly going to become a reference
camera but I'm assuming that Foveon have entered into agreements
with other Camera mfrs. and we'll soon be seeing Foveon CCD based
cameras from Nikon, Canon, Olypmus etc.

Since Fuji have persisted with their own unique CCD tech it seems
unlikely that Foveon reached an agreement with them so they might
find themselves left out in the cold with yesterday's tech.

Now is definitely NOT the time to buy a new digital camera - the
future looks bright though!

Michael.

That's only if camera companies buy the chips from Foveon.
Nikon and Canon as all Japanese camera companies currently only buy
their chips from Japanese chipmakers. Foveon is an American company.

Canon's relaltionship with Kodak is severely damaged so Canon will probably not get involved with another American for a long while.

 

[KenEis]

I see your point but I think your wrong. Color and resolution are the same...now. I will go even more overboard (and I can be convinced I'm wrong) A Faveon pixel incorporates all three colors. If you go either direction x or y you move on to another sampling point in the photograph. With the Fuji sensor you have to build a 4x4 array of pixels to get the same color or point on the image. You have to move 4 pixels over or down to start the next point of unique information in the image. Sounds like 16 to 1 to me...

I know my arguement breaks down when we start incorporating the actual size and photosite spacing on the chip but that's no fun.

Why do you day that? Favion is already higher resolution then the
S2.

No it does not. Its true resolution is better than current 3
megapixel designs, but not 3 times as good - you are confusing
resolution with colour.

Yes, its a great chip etc etc, but don't go overboard . Lets
wait and see a direct comparison with the Fuji / latest Canon etc.
I'd be surprised if it won that battle, but we will have to wait
until some reliable comparative reviews.
--
Q

 

[MartinD]

howdy!

ok, i think : should be watched, however, the foveon home page had already (at least) one year ago this huge cowboy poster and I thought man, that's the revolution. looking at their cams there were only unbelievably expensive studion cams....ok, i stopped being irritated.

Now SIGMAs, ok Foveon of course wants to sell the chip so they make money to come it. Sigma's cam is not the solution: iso, 1.7 factor, there were more things i didn't like too much (it might make good pics though).

Fuji, will not pay for all the development and then simply chips from others. I believe that the sensor technology is not at it's end, shure, but that will take another 2-4 years to change because all invested in their own technologies and they won't dump it immediately.

my 2c,
martin

 

[Robert Smith]

Why do you day that? Favion is already higher resolution then the
S2.

No it does not. Its true resolution is better than current 3
megapixel designs, but not 3 times as good - you are confusing
resolution with colour.

Yes, its a great chip etc etc, but don't go overboard . Lets
wait and see a direct comparison with the Fuji / latest Canon etc.
I'd be surprised if it won that battle, but we will have to wait
until some reliable comparative reviews.
--
Q

I tend to agree with Quentin. At the very least, some sample pics from both cameras would tell a lot (especially if we can find comparable quality lenses to put on both - but then does THAT become another factor [I feel certain that it will]).

In the meantime, though, let's consider that ALL current digital sensors (except for scanning backs) interpolate according to a color filter array, and manage to achieve a fairly high degree of success (though with the problems of noise and relative color inaccuracy, of which we are all painfully aware), and they DO manage to capture more real resolution than you would get by simply taking a full-color sample (i.e. 3-color, RGB) of each pixel and then interpolating THAT (ala Photoshop, GF, etc.). Soooo.... In this case, I do not agree that "color and resolution are the same", and I would lay money that the Foveon chip will NOT create - by any means - "3 times" the real-world resolution that ANY current "pro" model digicam of comparable "pixel number" capture using some kind of CFA interpolation (i.e. D30 or S1). And I would further expect the S2 to surpass the currently announced Foveon chip (assuming the optics are sharp enough to provide enough resolution - is anybody ELSE besides me concerned about that? - it's another subject, but I thought Fuji would create more "real-world" resolution by spreading their 6MP capture across a larger portion of the "35mm" image circle, than by cramming more pixels inside the smaller image area [same as the S1, D30, D1, etc.]).

In any case, this should be fascinating to watch - can't wait to see some S2 samples!

Robert

 

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

I think the excitement whipped up by the foveon announcement is to an extent justified, as any new digital imaging advance is, but to read some of the messages on some of the other notice boards suggests mass hysteria has broken out, with different posters vying to make the most ridiculous claims for the new chip.

My guess is that, at the moment, in its current form (1.7 multiplier, unknown ISO performance etc etc) it would be outperformed by the latest regular chips from the likes of Fuji and Canon, and probably by Contax, uing the old, but full frame, Philips chip.

Foveon want to sell to all and sundry, amd I expect Canon, Nikon etc have known about this chip for a long time. As and when it is the best option, they will pick it.

At the moment, I am much more interested in the S2, being a happy S1 user.
--
Q

 

[Gammy parazo]

You are right, the sigma and foveon ccd would really make a significant advantage in digital photography. Foveon, during the past few years have really made great technological breakthrough in their portrait digital cameras. But their prices are quite steep. Now, with this tandem, anyone can afford their technology.

But we are photographers right? Our job is to make good photographs, enjoyment and satisfaction into seeing our work hang on the wall is what we care for. all of these are techno gizmos and ic's and ccd's! Technology won't stop evolving for sure.

 

[Bill Dewey]

First off, would people please quit calling this chip a "ccd"? This is based on CMOS technology, not CCD. To date only one camera, the Canon D30 uses CMOS, all others are CCD. What is yet to be seen is whether or not this technology can be fast enough in getting on and off the chip to be useful overall. In the studio this won't much matter, but when I'm shootinf a 5 FPS burst it is critical. Also, every single digital camera interpolates, in one way or another.

As to your statement about this not being the time to buy, I most vigourously disagree. You must think of lost opportunity cost. I we had all waited for 2 ghz P4 processors and systems to suppor them, the technology would never have gotten there, as no one would have bought earlier models which became "obsolete", therein funding new development.

Same with cameras. Will there be a "better" one tomorrow? Undoubtedly there will, but the S1's, D1/X/H's, Canon D30 and 1D will all be very useful for many years. Putting this chip in a consumer level camera makes great sense to me, in order to test the waters, but a good D-SLR is much more than it's imaging chip. If the Sigma software isn't up to snuff, I don't care whose chip they use, it won't be worth squat.

Read the news on the dpreview front page about the new Foveon CCD
and it's clear that any camera using a traditional CCD (and I
include Fuji Super-CCD here) will soon be obsolete.

Clearly the Sigma SD9 isn't suddenly going to become a reference
camera but I'm assuming that Foveon have entered into agreements
with other Camera mfrs. and we'll soon be seeing Foveon CCD based
cameras from Nikon, Canon, Olypmus etc.

Since Fuji have persisted with their own unique CCD tech it seems
unlikely that Foveon reached an agreement with them so they might
find themselves left out in the cold with yesterday's tech.

Now is definitely NOT the time to buy a new digital camera - the
future looks bright though!

Michael.
--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

--Bill Deweywww.deweydrive.com

 

[Carl Peer]

Bill I do agree with a lot of what you are saying, but you should look at the spec sheet on the SD-9 or go to Foveon.net because the sigma is a cmos chip. As far as it not being the right time to buy I have to agree that it is not. If you run a business and you spend $5000.00 dollars on the D1x and then next year that same camera is worth only $1000.00. Then the next year you drop another $3500.00 to get an updated camera then you won't be in business very long. I know far to many people still using the origanal D1 because they paid to much and can't afford to buy the latest.

As to your statement about this not being the time to buy, I most
vigourously disagree. You must think of lost opportunity cost. I
we had all waited for 2 ghz P4 processors and systems to suppor
them, the technology would never have gotten there, as no one would
have bought earlier models which became "obsolete", therein funding
new development.

Same with cameras. Will there be a "better" one tomorrow?
Undoubtedly there will, but the S1's, D1/X/H's, Canon D30 and 1D
will all be very useful for many years. Putting this chip in a
consumer level camera makes great sense to me, in order to test the
waters, but a good D-SLR is much more than it's imaging chip. If
the Sigma software isn't up to snuff, I don't care whose chip they
use, it won't be worth squat.

Read the news on the dpreview front page about the new Foveon CCD
and it's clear that any camera using a traditional CCD (and I
include Fuji Super-CCD here) will soon be obsolete.

Clearly the Sigma SD9 isn't suddenly going to become a reference
camera but I'm assuming that Foveon have entered into agreements
with other Camera mfrs. and we'll soon be seeing Foveon CCD based
cameras from Nikon, Canon, Olypmus etc.

Since Fuji have persisted with their own unique CCD tech it seems
unlikely that Foveon reached an agreement with them so they might
find themselves left out in the cold with yesterday's tech.

Now is definitely NOT the time to buy a new digital camera - the
future looks bright though!

Michael.
--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com

 

[John Bagdovitz]

Unless your business runs a $5000 film and developing bill. Then if you DON'T buy the D1X, you will be out of business. My (part-time) business' bill comes in around $1500 a year and I am debating to jump or not. I am in a holding pattern right now.

John

As to your statement about this not being the time to buy, I most
vigourously disagree. You must think of lost opportunity cost. I
we had all waited for 2 ghz P4 processors and systems to suppor
them, the technology would never have gotten there, as no one would
have bought earlier models which became "obsolete", therein funding
new development.

Same with cameras. Will there be a "better" one tomorrow?
Undoubtedly there will, but the S1's, D1/X/H's, Canon D30 and 1D
will all be very useful for many years. Putting this chip in a
consumer level camera makes great sense to me, in order to test the
waters, but a good D-SLR is much more than it's imaging chip. If
the Sigma software isn't up to snuff, I don't care whose chip they
use, it won't be worth squat.

Read the news on the dpreview front page about the new Foveon CCD
and it's clear that any camera using a traditional CCD (and I
include Fuji Super-CCD here) will soon be obsolete.

Clearly the Sigma SD9 isn't suddenly going to become a reference
camera but I'm assuming that Foveon have entered into agreements
with other Camera mfrs. and we'll soon be seeing Foveon CCD based
cameras from Nikon, Canon, Olypmus etc.

Since Fuji have persisted with their own unique CCD tech it seems
unlikely that Foveon reached an agreement with them so they might
find themselves left out in the cold with yesterday's tech.

Now is definitely NOT the time to buy a new digital camera - the
future looks bright though!

Michael.
--
http://www.amarelo.jazznet.pt/photos/

--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com

 

[Matti J.]

First off, would people please quit calling Canon D30 only one camera using CMOS? To date only one digital SLR camera, the Canon D30 uses CMOS, all other CMOS cameras are cheapo web cams etc. but they still are cameras ;-) Right?

First off, would people please quit calling this chip a "ccd"?
This is based on CMOS technology, not CCD. To date only one
camera, the Canon D30 uses CMOS, all others are CCD... --Cheers,Matti J.

 

[KenEis]

Probably not in the context of this board.

First off, would people please quit calling this chip a "ccd"?
This is based on CMOS technology, not CCD. To date only one
camera, the Canon D30 uses CMOS, all others are CCD...

--
Cheers,
Matti J.