National Magazine Encourages Parents to Steal Photography

"First of all, I think this whole thing is brought about by photographers wanting to make too much money off this sort of work. Taking one or two shots of a kid or a group and then expecting each and everyone to dole out 20 bucks a pop for prints."

Something that might help this discussion is some info about what it "costs" to take a school photo.

There's time to arrange the shoot, travel time, setup time, dealing with printing and sales time, etc.

There's equipment expense to be capitalized over its life - cameras, backdrops, light, etc.

There's supply cost - prints, business forms, advertising(?), etc.

Anyone able to supply an approximate cost per shot?

And the typical students shot per hour?

Anyone think that many people would be willing to do this job and then sell the pictures to parents for Costco print prices?

--
bob

Special Thai Ladies for You
http://picasaweb.google.com/Bobfwall/SpecialThaiLadies
(Warning! Some full frontal nudity)

The Blind Pig Guild - A Photo/Travel Club
http://www.jeber.com/Clubs/Blind-Pig/

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
 
BTW, give some thought to the photographer who takes school
pictures. You really think those dudes are getting rich or are
they just scraping by?

I'd guess that the sale of a single print wouldn't cover their
actual costs. There's a lot more expense involved than just what a
5"x7" print costs at Costco.

I'd bet some of these guys could do just about as well by working
fast food.
Or better. Some years ago, I answered an ad from a large school photo outfit. The money was borderline atrocious, but they weren't looking for photographers. They "trained" you. Their gear. You worked the school year, then got the summer off. Except that it didn't quite work like that. That summer "off" was when you were laid off, probably drawing unemployment (nice annual event, eh?). No benefits outside Social Security which by law they have to provide. Lots of miles on your vehicle, and, you can bet, an insurance increase when State Farm discovers it being used for work. I don't recall the mileage reimbursement, but it was not generous, probably about half what IRS allows.

I told the guy I'd think about it. I went home, added up the net, and decided I wouldn't call back. It amounted to something like 17K before taxes, if memory serves. Plus losing money on my car use. They called me several times to offer the job: I wasn't home twice, then gave them a final turndown.

Geez, at least the burger joints provide free uniforms.
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
"First of all, I think this whole thing is brought about by
photographers wanting to make too much money off this sort of work.
Taking one or two shots of a kid or a group and then expecting each
and everyone to dole out 20 bucks a pop for prints."

Something that might help this discussion is some info about what
it "costs" to take a school photo.

There's time to arrange the shoot, travel time, setup time, dealing
with printing and sales time, etc.

There's equipment expense to be capitalized over its life -
cameras, backdrops, light, etc.

There's supply cost - prints, business forms, advertising(?), etc.

Anyone able to supply an approximate cost per shot?

And the typical students shot per hour?

Anyone think that many people would be willing to do this job and
then sell the pictures to parents for Costco print prices?
Sure, why not? Or maybe mark them up a buck. :)

Seriously, though, I would guess most of us can figure the costs pretty close. What is a problem is figuring the number of students you can grind through the session each hour. In the good old days, I'd have bet on more than a dozen. With today's attitudes, and looks, I'd guess more like five. But both of those are guesses.

Figure 10 to be safe. Sounds like a nice, easy $200 an hour, I guess. But 95% of the time, there's a company dragging off the top, including enough to cover all the amortizations and general expenses (most of which the company meets, including getting and setting appointments and other clerical fun stuff that otherwise we get to handle). The photographer? Figure about ten bucks an hour.

Profit? Not a real clue. Things like posing stools and backdrops and stands and umbrellas last almost forever if treated well (probably not going to happen with 10 buck an hour employees). Cameras and lights and the fairly costly laptops used for sales are another story, as is the salary/commission setup of the sales person.

I would almost bet the company is not netting much more than 25-35 bucks an hour from the whole deal if they're selling 8x10 prints for $20, and get a good student flow.

Of course, if they've got 250 photographers out and about....
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
"Copyright infringement DOES NOT EQUAL theft. One is a civil
offense and the other criminal. Just like **** does not equal
murder."

Now I suspect that many people would read that as I did. In one
sentence you mention a civil versus criminal offence and then in
the very next sentence compare **** and murder. What other
conclusion should we draw?

I suspectyour point regarding copyright infringement being a purely
civil offence may also be wrong but then I don't live in America so
I am not sure.
Anyone who thinks **** is analogous to a civil crime needs some
education himself.
I don't know where you got that from, but certainly not what I
wrote...
I'm pretty sure he's right there. It's a civil offense, a tort, and is handled by suing in court, and, one hopes, winning, at which point the defendant gets to pay a fine. If it's Disney doing the suing, their lawyers are talented enough to skin a cat without ruffling its fur, so the fine will be major. For other lawyers, maybe, maybe not.
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
It's about overcharging for a couple of pictures. 24 bucks for a
few pictures seems to be quite a lot. The magazine states the
photographers probably make unreasonable profits, so making a copy
for grandma wouldn't harm.

What would be a fair calculation? I think I remember paying some 4
bucks for a class picture + multiple size portraits in the '80.
Dunno. What were you paying for gas back then? Or a loaf of bread or a pound of sirloin steak?

When I was in high school, high test gas was about 28.9 cents per gallon most of the time, and high test was 32.9. No midrange. Golden Esso came out about that time at 35.9 and sold like heart attacks, except for people who owned things like Cadillacs (didn't need it, but...) and Mercedes.

I didn't go to my photo session--I was fond of neither my high school nor most of my fellow students--so I don't know what the photos cost, but I paid $10 for a single 5x7 in 1958 so my mother could have a shot of me in my uniform, other than the "all ears" portrait the Marine Corps had sent from Parris Island.
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
An additional point would be to what extent unfair laws have to be
abided by, but I don't dare to address it, let alone here ;) Regards
I don't really follow you here, but I think you're talking about
laws that one doesn't feel are correct/fair/just.

Those types of laws do occur. One has to choose to either follow
them, work to change them, or violate them understanding that by
breaking those laws they open themselves to the consequences.

Some of our greatest heroes chose to break laws they thought
unjust. Their actions often led to unjust laws being changed.
True. Yet, today we have a government that has to provide ethics classes for its members after too many are found taking too much that they shouldn't take at all. I wonder if that's part of the concept that breaking a law a "little bit" or "not for profit" means there will never be punishment of some kind.

Some people also seem to think that because copyright infringement is a civil offense that there are no punishments. The punishments are fines, often paid to the company or person owning the copyright, at least in large part. A part of the punishment is finding out just how much lawyers charge for research, case prep and courtroom time. You don't go to jail. At least you don't go to jail unless you don't pay the fines and fees.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
How many? Well, my first photographic job, back when God was young, was as a school photographer. My record (not one I'm particularly proud of) was 1264 underclassmen in a high school in one school day.

Just thought I would chime in.

DIPics
"First of all, I think this whole thing is brought about by
photographers wanting to make too much money off this sort of work.
Taking one or two shots of a kid or a group and then expecting each
and everyone to dole out 20 bucks a pop for prints."

Something that might help this discussion is some info about what
it "costs" to take a school photo.

There's time to arrange the shoot, travel time, setup time, dealing
with printing and sales time, etc.

There's equipment expense to be capitalized over its life -
cameras, backdrops, light, etc.

There's supply cost - prints, business forms, advertising(?), etc.

Anyone able to supply an approximate cost per shot?

And the typical students shot per hour?

Anyone think that many people would be willing to do this job and
then sell the pictures to parents for Costco print prices?
Sure, why not? Or maybe mark them up a buck. :)

Seriously, though, I would guess most of us can figure the costs
pretty close. What is a problem is figuring the number of students
you can grind through the session each hour. In the good old days,
I'd have bet on more than a dozen. With today's attitudes, and
looks, I'd guess more like five. But both of those are guesses.

Figure 10 to be safe. Sounds like a nice, easy $200 an hour, I
guess. But 95% of the time, there's a company dragging off the top,
including enough to cover all the amortizations and general
expenses (most of which the company meets, including getting and
setting appointments and other clerical fun stuff that otherwise we
get to handle). The photographer? Figure about ten bucks an hour.

Profit? Not a real clue. Things like posing stools and backdrops
and stands and umbrellas last almost forever if treated well
(probably not going to happen with 10 buck an hour employees).
Cameras and lights and the fairly costly laptops used for sales are
another story, as is the salary/commission setup of the sales
person.

I would almost bet the company is not netting much more than 25-35
bucks an hour from the whole deal if they're selling 8x10 prints
for $20, and get a good student flow.

Of course, if they've got 250 photographers out and about....
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
How many? Well, my first photographic job, back when God was
young, was as a school photographer. My record (not one I'm
particularly proud of) was 1264 underclassmen in a high school in
one school day.
Let's see, ....

Assuming a six hour school day that's about 211 per hour, 3.5 per minute, about 17 seconds per sitting.

These days you could do even better. Wouldn't have to stop to load the film, just use some mega-gig cards.

How about a Segway? You could line all thousand up and cruise down the line, snapping as you go. I'm figuring, say three seconds per face.

That's 7,200 per day. ;o)

--
bob

Special Thai Ladies for You
http://picasaweb.google.com/Bobfwall/SpecialThaiLadies
(Warning! Some full frontal nudity)

The Blind Pig Guild - A Photo/Travel Club
http://www.jeber.com/Clubs/Blind-Pig/

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips
 
I really love folks here who post insults. It is a charming way to have a discussion. So, so ... insightful.

TODA
--
Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com
 
I’ve gone through these posts and have read some pretty funny stuff. I’m going to take some time and examine it in the light of this bright Texas day.

First, it IS a copyright violation to copy your school picture and send it to great aunt Edna. There is no real debate about this. Just ask yourself, would it be ok to copy it and sent it to 10,000 people? No obviously. How about 1,000 people? Again, obviously no. So, just where is this line that turns it into a civil offense? Well, the line is anywhere north of zero. Quantity doesn’t matter.

Second, there have been some gripes about an “obsolete business plan”. I’m pretty familiar with Lifetouch. They are likely the largest school photography business in the country. They have been extremely profitable for well over 30 years. When you make more money than they do for as long as they have, then you can judge how obsolete their business plan is.

Third, if you think that their photos are overpriced trash, then go for it. Go to that school and offer your services. Either shoot the same quality for a lower price or better quality for the same price. Don’t forget that the school will expect anywhere from 20-40% of the package price. If you can do so, I’m sure they will jump all over your deal.

If you think that, since in your opinion, the photos aren’t worth the price so it is ok to steal some (in effect), I have to wonder, what is your honor worth? If you think they are overpriced, then go elsewhere for your photos, there is no shortage of studios out there that will do a wonderful job for you. Or, just don’t buy them.

School photography is a tough business. I did it for a couple of seasons a few decades ago. I wouldn’t again. But, don’t rag these people unless you can do better. If you claim that you can, put up or shut up.

DIPics
 
I’ve gone through these posts and have read some pretty funny
stuff. I’m going to take some time and examine it in the light of
this bright Texas day.

First, it IS a copyright violation to copy your school picture and
send it to great aunt Edna. There is no real debate about this.
Just ask yourself, would it be ok to copy it and sent it to 10,000
people? No obviously. How about 1,000 people? Again, obviously
no. So, just where is this line that turns it into a civil
offense? Well, the line is anywhere north of zero. Quantity
doesn’t matter.
The fact that most people who have paid to have their school photo taken feel that they own the image and can copy it to give (not sell) a copy to their relatives, despite what the law actualy is.
Second, there have been some gripes about an “obsolete business
plan”. I’m pretty familiar with Lifetouch. They are likely the
largest school photography business in the country. They have been
extremely profitable for well over 30 years. When you make more
money than they do for as long as they have, then you can judge how
obsolete their business plan is.
The only part of the business plan that has been pointed out to be obsolete is the reprints, simply because it is so easy to copy their school photo using a scanner onto their computer and to then email it to a relative or print out a second copy.

If the image isn't used for as part of publicity campaign in a magazine or newspaper or billboards, there realy is no way the photog could possibly know that the photo has been copied for private use and there is almost no chance that they would take action on something they don't know about.

It would also be very bad publicity to sue little juniour's mother for emailing a copy of his school photo to his gran; they would be seen as an evil, money grubbing psycho who hates families.
Third, if you think that their photos are overpriced trash, then go
for it. Go to that school and offer your services. Either shoot
the same quality for a lower price or better quality for the same
price. Don’t forget that the school will expect anywhere from
20-40% of the package price. If you can do so, I’m sure they will
jump all over your deal.

If you think that, since in your opinion, the photos aren’t worth
the price so it is ok to steal some (in effect), I have to wonder,
what is your honor worth? If you think they are overpriced, then
go elsewhere for your photos, there is no shortage of studios out
there that will do a wonderful job for you. Or, just don’t buy
them.
I would be very surprised if a case of breach of copyright was actualy taken to court, as the profits (zero, to mom sending gran & pop a copy of juniour's school photo) lost from the breach would be totaly overweighed by the cost of going to court and the resultant bad publicity generated for the photogrpher (they would be seen as an evil, money grubbing psycho who hates what families do).
School photography is a tough business. I did it for a couple of
seasons a few decades ago. I wouldn’t again. But, don’t rag these
people unless you can do better. If you claim that you can, put up
or shut up.
It is a tought business, but people just won't pay for something that they can easily do for themselves (scan and email a copy of juniour's school photo to the relatives).
 
The fact that most people who have paid to have their school photo
taken feel that they own the image and can copy it to give (not
sell) a copy to their relatives, despite what the law actualy is.
The only part of the business plan that has been pointed out to be
obsolete is the reprints, simply because it is so easy to copy
their school photo using a scanner onto their computer and to then
email it to a relative or print out a second copy.
If the image isn't used for as part of publicity campaign in a
magazine or newspaper or billboards, there realy is no way the
photog could possibly know that the photo has been copied for
private use and there is almost no chance that they would take
action on something they don't know about.
It would also be very bad publicity to sue little juniour's mother
for emailing a copy of his school photo to his gran; they would be
seen as an evil, money grubbing psycho who hates families.
Actually, that part of the business plan isn't obsolete either. It was NEVER a part of the profit center at all. The reason that the prices for reprints is so high is to discourage them. Reprints are a money-loser for these companies. They do so many kids per year that ANYTHING that breaks the normal flow (such as reprints) adds significant cost. The fact that they do offer them is just a service for that .01% of parents that have an unusual situation (such as a death, and those they do for free) or for those that can never get enough pics of little Susie. They lose money every time they sell a reprint.
I would be very surprised if a case of breach of copyright was
actualy taken to court, as the profits (zero, to mom sending gran &
pop a copy of juniour's school photo) lost from the breach would be
totaly overweighed by the cost of going to court and the resultant
bad publicity generated for the photogrpher (they would be seen as
an evil, money grubbing psycho who hates what families do).
I would be more suprised. I doubt it has ever happened or that it ever will. But if they catch a photofinisher making a print for Aunt Edna, then they WILL sue. They do it all the time.
It is a tought business, but people just won't pay for something
that they can easily do for themselves (scan and email a copy of
juniour's school photo to the relatives).
This applies to all photographers. But, somehow I still get almost 1/4 of my income from reprints. The prints I can sell them are significantly better than any they are likely able to make on their own and I market them fairly aggressively. This quality issue isn't necessarily the case with school photos though. But, as I said, the copyright is much more likely used against photofinishers than individuals.

DIPics
 
If a photographer can take a picture of you, and use it for his own personal pleasure . . .. Why can't you take a picture of the photographer's photo, and use it for your own pleasure?

Isn't turn around fair play? Not to hear the photographers whine.

Fact is, photography depends on casual copyright infringement to survive. Imagine if you couldn't take a picture of a street, a house, a city, a park, any person, any object that you don't own. Take a candid of me, 50 years in the making, and the photographer owns it just because he can push a button, not because he has any skill or talent?

So you take a picture of an apple. Mr. Farmer comes over and says, hey, It took me 20 years to grow that tree and produce that apply. Pay me royalties. Of course, copyright law would answer that it could be any apple - nothing special about that one. Turn it around - unless it's a really, really, really good picture of an apple it probably looks like any other apply picture taken in the last 20 years. Does that picture that took 5 seconds to take deserve copyright protection?

I respect copyrights, I respect the rights of artists, and I want everyone to earn a livelihood from their talent and hard work. Yet, by taking the high ground, and by insisting on strict ownership, photographers may be hurting themselves in the long run.

Lets face it. School photography is legalized blackmail. Get the parents through their children, get the pictures in the yearbook, put all that pressure on the children at the worst time in their lives, take 30 second photos by the thousands, then bill the parents about 10 times what they are worth. What a racket!
 
Copyright law allows casual copying. Copyright law allows copying for your own personal use. Copyright law allows copying in limited quantity.

There is no comparision between making 1 copy for your own use, and 1000 copies for other to use.

If I'm wrong don't get excited and flame me. Point out the code where I'm wrong. I'm happy to listen to a civil, thought out reply. Copyright law is vague and it's hard to get a straight answer. But unlike some of the people here I've spend an hour on Google trying to get straight answers. I found some quotes (that no one has refuted) that indicates copying for personal use is fine. I haven't found a single one that says it isn't.

"The copyright statute also provides “consumer” exceptions to otherwise illegal copyright infringement. The duplication of a musical recording for personal use, the videotaping of a televised program or modifications to software to enable its use with hardware are some examples of these exceptions. "

"As Jessica Litman, author of “Digital Copyright,” writes in her law review article “War Stories,” 20 Cardozo Arts & Entertainment Law
Journal 337 (2002):

Under the old way of thinking about things, copying your CD and carrying the copy around with you to play in your car, in your Walkman, or in your cassette deck at work is legal. Borrowing a music CD and making a copy on some other medium for your personal use is legal. Recording music from the radio; maxing different recorded tracks for a ‘party tape,’ and making a copy of one of your CDs for your next-door neighbor are, similarly, all lawful acts. The copyright law says so: section 1008 of the copyright statute provides that consumers may make non-commercial copies of recorded music without liability. Many people seem not to know this any more.

Now, this is not to say that individuals have a right to make an unlimited number of an unlimited number of CDs for their friends."
 
I propose that McDonalds save money by placing BigMacs in a hopper. Then the customers can take the burger and pay afterwards by swiping their credit card.

Thinking about it, the same answer would simplify vending machines. Instead of a complex machine to vend, then all that would be needed is a refrigerator and a coin box or card swipe!

Oh yeh ... the same thing applies to school photos. The photographer can just send the picture home with the student, includinding a bill! Then, the parent will just pay for what they want!

Simple?
--
Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com
 
I can not find anyplace that says you can not copy an item you own
for personal use. However, I've found numerous examples where it is
allowed to copy items for personal use.
making a copy and giving it to someone is NOT PERSONAL USE

People with a concience call it THEFT
No it's not. It's copyright violation. Theft is when you take an object from somebody. And copyright shouldn't be called copyright, it should be called copyprivilege.

--
http://www.4-3system.com
http://jonr.light.is
 
Copyright law allows casual copying. Copyright law allows copying
for your own personal use. Copyright law allows copying in limited
quantity.

There is no comparision between making 1 copy for your own use, and
1000 copies for other to use.
But, that isn't really the issue here. You cannot make a copy for someone else's use (Aunt Edna). Nor can Walmart make a copy for you for your use. If you want to scan the photo and stare at it. Or even print a copy for your own use on your own printer, that is possibly (arguably) allowed. But, you CANNOT distribute them for pay or not.
"As Jessica Litman, author of “Digital Copyright,” writes in her
law review article “War Stories,” 20 Cardozo Arts & Entertainment
Law
Journal 337 (2002):

Under the old way of thinking about things, copying your CD and
carrying the copy around with you to play in your car, in your
Walkman, or in your cassette deck at work is legal. Borrowing a
music CD and making a copy on some other medium for your personal
use is legal. Recording music from the radio; maxing different
recorded tracks for a ‘party tape,’ and making a copy of one of
your CDs for your next-door neighbor are, similarly, all lawful
acts. The copyright law says so: section 1008 of the copyright
statute provides that consumers may make non-commercial copies of
recorded music without liability. Many people seem not to know this
any more.

Now, this is not to say that individuals have a right to make an
unlimited number of an unlimited number of CDs for their friends."
Ok, here is section 1008.

"No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement
of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution
of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording
medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium,
or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or
medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical
recordings."

This section means that the people who manufactured the DEVICES that do the recording cannot be sued because someone used them to record copyrighted material. The use of the device isn't illegal.

But, more on point is section 106 which states:

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under
this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of
the following:

(paragraph 1 and 2 cut for brevity)
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted
work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by
rental, lease, or lending.

In other words, pretty much any way you distribute them, other than sale of the original photograph (which is perfectly legal) is a violation of the copyright.

Also, under section 113 (Scope of exclusive rights in pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works ) you find included in this scope:

Subject to the provisions of subsections (b) and (c) of this
section, the exclusive right to reproduce a copyrighted pictorial,
graphic, or sculptural work in copies under section 106 includes
the right to reproduce the work in or on any kind of article,
whether useful or otherwise.

Section B and C state:

(b) This title does not afford, to the owner of copyright in a
work that portrays a useful article as such, any greater or lesser
rights with respect to the making, distribution, or display of the
useful article so portrayed than those afforded to such works under
the law, whether title 17 or the common law or statutes of a State,
in effect on December 31, 1977, as held applicable and construed by
a court in an action brought under this title.
(c) In the case of a work lawfully reproduced in useful articles
that have been offered for sale or other distribution to the
public, copyright does not include any right to prevent the making,
distribution, or display of pictures or photographs of such
articles in connection with advertisements or commentaries related
to the distribution or display of such articles, or in connection
with news reports.

Hope this helps,
DIPics
 
Here’s your reality check

Anyone who views sending a copy of one image to Granny via email as somehow unethical is naive at best. That’s as polite as I can put it.

BobTrips has not grasped this yet but then you can’t teach a man who knows everything anything.
 

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