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Gilbert44749

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Hi all,

Almost three weeks ago I asked for some help in posing and lighting a group of 11 and received a bunch of useful suggestions, especially from Chuck Gardner and Bill McLeod. I had an intermediate shoot and got some good critiques and suggestions from it prior to the shoot of 11. The previous thread is here: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=19842251

Well, the portrait session happened over the weekend and I'm here to share my images and what I learned from the session. First I'll go through the setup.

Lighting
Two strobes, Alien Bees B800 inside Photoflex large softboxes
Key light: On axis with camera, center of softbox about 7" high
Fill light: On axis and same height as camera
Fill light hitting subjects was about 1 stop lower than key light.
Shooting at f/10 ISO100

Posing

Really tough posing with a couple of 2-year old twins. I posed the adults first. Grandpa straddling a posing bench and grandma on the front edge of the bench. Grandpa sitting on a couple of cushions to raise him up a little. Adult males in the back are standing on short posing discs to get them a little bit higher. Then I posed the grade school children (7 and 9) standing on small step stools. The 9-year old girl turned a little from when I first posed her and unfortunately her body is turned away from the camera too much. The twins are standing on a two-step step stool. I had wanted one to stand on the lower step and the other on the higher step, but of course they both wanted to stand on top.

Here are the results after adding a little vignetting on the edges:



Lessons learned
1. Keep your eye on the pose, even after you've started shooting.

2. I told the families to dress in dark colors, but also suggest avoiding sleeveless dresses/shirts. The bare arms look huge.

3. I really need a couple of posing stools or something to sit on to raise/lower the sitting position.

Overall, I was pretty happy with the shoot. Chuck's suggestion of putting the key and fill light on the camera axis worked wonderfully. There were no cross shadows and dead areas which I had gotten in my last shoot. Anyways, I have some more photos from the shoot as well as a diagram and photos of the room setup.

http://www.pbase.com/gilbert/liu_family

Any comments/critiques/suggestions appreciated. Thanks.

--
-gilbert
http://www.gilbertmabel.com

'You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.' -Mark Twain
 
Make sure you make lots of prints on long life paper, and the people send them to various friends and relatives.

I always worry some digital file is going to be printed on poor inkjet paper and then the file gets lost and the prints fade.

These are great shots.

And yes, I can imagine the two year old negotiating for the top step.

BAK
 
Too bad you didn't get the parents in the back row to place their hands on the shoulders of the kids. Nice smiles, but not much warmth to it.

In addition, the 2 kids on the left stick out like a sore thumb - no jackets.

The girl / women in the back row center postion should have been placed on some books. She's in a hole.

Not a bad shot, but some tweaking could have been a home run shot. No one has any head tilts to them. Everyone is just standing and GRIN'n

Lighting is decent though. Watch the reflections in glasses as well.

--
Regards, Phillip @ Keepsake,

I've never carried bags for anyone, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night ;)
 
Gerrard said:
Hi Gilbert, I think you did well on the pose and lighting. For
future ref. with people wearing glasses (the guy in the front) just
ask them to tilt their head slightly down to avoid glare.
Cheers
Ray
Click to expand...
Thanks for the comments, Ray. I was very conscious of avoiding reflections in the glasses (I did both head tilted forward and eyeglasses tilted down at least a dozen times during the shoot) so I must have missed him tiliting his head back up.

--
-gilbert
http://www.gilbertmabel.com

'You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.' -Mark Twain
 
Thanks, BAK. For this kind of stuff, I don't allow them to print the images themselves. For quality control, I get the prints done at a trusted lab.

It was tough enough pulling them away from the toys they were playing with prior to the shot. There was no way we were going to try to convince one of them to stand on the lower step.

-Gilbert
BAK said:
Make sure you make lots of prints on long life paper, and the
people send them to various friends and relatives.

I always worry some digital file is going to be printed on poor
inkjet paper and then the file gets lost and the prints fade.

These are great shots.

And yes, I can imagine the two year old negotiating for the top step.

BAK
Click to expand...
--
-gilbert
http://www.gilbertmabel.com

'You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.' -Mark Twain
 
Nice picture Gilbert....I am shooting a wedding (long story...for free) on Saturday. I have lights....like your placement of lights, but would like to use umbrellas instead of my softboxes to save time, which is critical...Would two 42 inch umbrellas get in my way both being on camera axis? Can't try it out in house...low ceiling...
 
Thanks for the CC, Philip. I have never had any success in posing with one persons hand(s) on another's shoulder, waist, etc which is probably a reflection of my skill level. Combine that and the fact that I think they can be a distraction from the faces and so I typically try to hide the hands as much as possible.

I completely agree about the kids on the left. There wasn't much I could really do. I emphasized several times before the shoot that everyone should have dark clothing or at least something to cover up (sweater, vest, jacket, etc.), but that's how they came.

Yeah, I probably should have had the woman in the back center on a phone book or two. I didn't want to have the heads line up in the back row.

Ok, gotta work on the head tilts. Any suggestions/tips? I'm not sure where to start.

You said the lighting is "decent"...I'd be interested in how it could be improved and what you would have done differently. There is always next time...

Thanks again for the input.

--
-gilbert
http://www.gilbertmabel.com

'You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.' -Mark Twain
pfiltz said:
Too bad you didn't get the parents in the back row to place their
hands on the shoulders of the kids. Nice smiles, but not much
warmth to it.

In addition, the 2 kids on the left stick out like a sore thumb -
no jackets.
The girl / women in the back row center postion should have been
placed on some books. She's in a hole.

Not a bad shot, but some tweaking could have been a home run shot.
No one has any head tilts to them. Everyone is just standing and
GRIN'n

Lighting is decent though. Watch the reflections in glasses as well.
Click to expand...
 
I agree with pflitz. Lighting is ok, sometimes you can't do anything about what people wear to a shoot, but posing is so-so.

Sometimes a small amount of space between family groupings can make the relationships clear and almost every family group photo I have admired has been arranged in the unequal sided and off center triangle shape.

As you get more experience the technical will become second nature and you can concentrate on getting the pose down. For me this is still the hardest part of group photography.

I have several home built stacking wooden boxes that are sturdy enough for people to stand on to keep their eyes from being on the same level. They are built out of 2x4" walls with 3/4 scrap plywood on the top. Just changing someones height 3.5" is usually enough. They are big enough to stand on comfortably or set a stool on top of to change the height of the stool. Used under a muslin they are pretty much invisible.

I almost always darken the corners of the image to help focus attention on people but I find if it's too dark it almost has the opposite effect-the people look like they were lit with a flashlight in a dark room. Lighting and post processing are best when the viewer never thinks about the effects.
 
Wow! That turned out great. Big improvement over the earlier test shots. Much tighter composition, more effective sub groups and nice overall flow. Glad to see when my advice is put to use so effectively.

Your vignette is far too heavy handed. A good rule of thumb is that if you can even notice that there is one its too heavy. Try a bit tighter crop and a bit less vignette and compare.

For next time: The two kids in the white shirts on the right are a bit unfortunate in terms of distractions. Best place to put distracting clothing like that is where to will pull the eye towards the focal point -- grandparents -- not away from the center. After posing the grandparents I have put one of them on each side of them bookend style, their parents behind, then built the rest of the group around that base.

CG
 
Chuck Gardner said:
For next time: The two kids in the white shirts on the LEFT are a
bit unfortunate in terms of distractions. Best place to put
distracting clothing like that is where to will pull the eye
towards the focal point -- grandparents -- not away from the
center. After posing the grandparents I have put one of them on
each side of them bookend style, their parents behind, then built
the rest of the group around that base.
Click to expand...
 
To me...you did a wonderful job. Looks as good as any I have ever seen. Very nice, basic, family shots.

I think some people try and over complicate things. Keeping it simple and giving people what they want is way better than trying to over complicate and over pose, and trying to make everything so "artsie"

I love that you gave pictures of your setups and really enjoyed the efforts you gave......
 
Thanks for sharing and posting even your lighting setup.
Everyone look so happy and enjoying themselves in the photos taken. Good job.
 
Dave1234 said:
Nice picture Gilbert....I am shooting a wedding (long story...for
free) on Saturday. I have lights....like your placement of lights,
but would like to use umbrellas instead of my softboxes to save
time, which is critical...Would two 42 inch umbrellas get in my way
both being on camera axis? Can't try it out in house...low
ceiling...
Click to expand...
Thanks! If you can get the key light high enough, you should be ok. I had the fill light behind my camera position, so that size didn't really matter. My only concern would be having enough power with the umbrellas.

--
-gilbert
http://www.gilbertmabel.com

'You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.' -Mark Twain
 
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