Jobs announces the "death of the CRT"

[Ulysses]

Bosko -

Yeah, we know all of that.

What I'm asking, though, is: Are you disappointed or satisfied with today's offerings?

5. Yes, Steve is an real jerk.

Actually, I'm kind of drawn to Jobs. I like what I've seen of him. The guy definitely has charisma. He knows how to sell an idea without jamming it down your throat, and making you like it in the process. I don't have a real problem with him. But we digress.

Todays offerings and LCD's. What do you think? -- Ulysses

 

[Tom Ferguson]

Alright! There really IS a fair amount of interest in this.

Now, the next step:

Some of you have expressed disappointment. What I'd like to know
is: Are the disappointed people actually Mac users? Are these the
people to whom Apple is catering?

What about you dedicated Mac users? How do you feel?

Well, I use both platforms at differant locations / clients. But, I chose Mac for my own office and home. Does that make me "dedicated"??

I suspect that Mr. Jobs is right. The end is "near" for the CRT. But, Mr. Job has made a carrer of being just a bit ahead of the pack. Who first decided the floopy was too small to bother with? That USB beat SCSII for convienience? That firewire beat USB? Yep, he does things before his audience/customers are ready sometimes. Makes for a real fun show!

I still prefer CRT to a flat screen, though I admit the flats are getting better and better. Eventually they will take over (lower power use, non curved images, less space). I suspect that Mr. Job's speach / action will speed that up.

So, I'm not disapointed. The I-Mac is Apple's "consumer" model. It isn't aimed at professional photographers or graphic designers. The I-mac is a smart place to start the changeover from CRT to flat.

My only disappointment is that like Frank C., I wish that they made
the iMac for the Windows OS. I'd probably snatch one up in a
second. Don't know that I'd use it as a primary PC system. But I'd
definitely get one and think about it.

I wouldn't hold your breath for that one ;-)--Tom Ferguson http://www.ferguson-photo-design.comF707 Studio Info Page: http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

 

[kopper]

But what I meant was exactly what you mentioned: Folks who use a
Mac as their primary. The "devout" are also free to chime in.

Ok, I'll "chime in". We only use Macs at work and home. Personally I don't like the new design, although I'll hold off my final decision until seeing it "live". We were hoping for a new all-in-one design that would incorporate both LCD and the iSub speaker system. To me the new design will be a nightmare to move around. Our iMacs get moved between rooms at the studio a lot as well as back and forth to home. The new design has the computer, the keyboard, the mouse, and three speakers (with iSub). Simply too darned many pieces. If this design hangs around (versus the Cube - which had the same "fatal" flaw of too many pieces) then our next round will be Titaniums or the new 14" iBook.

kopper
http://www.kopperhead.com

 

[David Pichevin]

Well, I would say that it would be good to go and have a good look
at what is available in terms of LCD on the market today.

I will do that. I take your viewpoint seriously. Personally, I
haven't looked into the LCD market for about a year.

That evolved very fast, same thing for the prices. This is the year where we had the biggest evolution in terms of LCDs.

Something to be careful about, in my opinion it doesn't make sense to get an LCD that is not entirely digital. And many brands went the opposite way (analog connection), probably to try to take over the CRT market (graphics cards without DVI connectors).

I have LCDs at work too. 15" 800*600 analog LCD screens from Compaq connected to some of the servers I'm taking care of. You couldn't pay me to use one of those at home, and not just because of the resolution.

There is LCD and....LCD.

The problem is the cash outlay, however. To get an LCD with the
proper capability and size I'd want/need... gawwd.... Maybe my
pricing is a year out of date, too, but... the CRT must still be
the most economical way to go, right?

It depends. My LCD screen from Apple was $999. This is not a cheap LCD but it IS a good one. With a PC it would probably be another brand. I'm sure the same kind of quality can be found from good brands for maybe $750, $800. For the best result, you have to get a graphics card with a digital connector or it's wasted. But then, the graphics card doesn't have to be as good as with the LCD because it will not be pushed to its limits in terms of refresh rates.

If I was to buy a very good quality CRT I would look at one of the new 22 inches from Mitsubishi/Nec. For almost the same price as my LCD I would get a bigger resolution and sharp quality. But in terms of real sharpness for text and images I would still prefer the LCD, which is why I'm keeping it.

For instance, I'm looking at a 19" CRT for my next PC within the
next few months. Can you convince me that I can get a reasonably
priced LCD that would also give me good color?

I think you really ought to go and check them out, but in a serious store. That's why I said apple. They are setup with one screen per computer and you can play around with graphics, video etc...

But yes, I'm convinced that you can get a very good 17" LCD for not too much more than a good 19" CRT. The difference in real estate between a 19" CRT and 17" LCd is pretty small and both have their "sweet" resolution at 1280*1024.

But we can probably talk more about this somewhere else.

They are all off, even though I tried my best to calibrate them.

Couldn't you say the same about LCD's?

Well. The LCD I'm using doesn't have any setting for colors etc. All I have to do is choose the proper profile at the OS level, the correct gamme I need, the color temperature etc...and that is what the LCD will display.

I have to admit that this could be more complicated to do on a PC than on a Mac, which has all the necessary tools to choose the right profile/calibration.

LCD have evolved a lot. If you want to see what they are capable of
in a correct setting (forget about those stores displaying video
from one single computer through 20 screens) go to any local Apple
retailer and check them out and see what they can do. That has
evolved.

Apple? I'm not getting an Apple.

I know But LCD doesn't make LCD panels. It's just a way to see fully digital LCD screens on functional and well setup machines that you can really use. What I mean by that is that most of the store I go to really have no setup that could allow you to get a good idea about any monitor.

At Fry's they play a video or show a simple Windows desktop screen on 15 different monitors, from one single computer through a video switch. This is HORRIBLE, whether it's LCD or CRT.

Or do they sell LCD's separately? I'm serious. I honestly don't
know what they're doing these days.

oh, they sell them separately, 15", 17", 22" (very expensive this last one).

They can be used on a PC (with a digital DVI connector) if you buy the proper cable. But that cable is a very expensive $149. I guess some people would pay that just for the looks of the screen, but another (good) brand will probably do.

As for 800*600, I still consider it very low for image manipulation.

Believe me, it is. I'm testing at a higher rez as I type this. But
most of my work really does work better for me at 800x600 on this
17" monitor. I'm in front of a screen for many, many hours during
the day. Yes, I can see it at the higher rez, but I'm not really
comfortable. Maybe an LCD would give me more comfort at the higher
rez. I dunno.

I know. I suffer from serious eye strain if the display isn't right. That's the part were I pay the most attention. I'm extremely picky about display quality.

A good 15" LCD would display (once again, I have seen the 15" inch from Apple) 1024*768 with a lot of comfort. And you would really eliminate the strain from the flicker of the CRT (even at a high frequency). My 17" LCD displaying 1280*1024 gives bigger characters and is extremmely pleasant to me for long use. The brightness is turned down to less than half and it's still very bright.

Right now I'm typing on my PC at work, with a Sony CRT setup for 1600*1200 at 85Hz. It's ok. It could be ,uch sharper though but it doesn't bother me too much. When I get home and look at my LCD though, I get such a feeling of stability, readability, quiet, don't need to squint (not just because of the resolution but sharpness difference).

On your 17" CRT you might want to display bigger fonts. It would me more readable and at the same time you would have more real-estate to display pictures.

But really, do try to see some good ones in a good setup, in a place where you can play with them.

David.--My photo galleries: http://www.pbase.com/davidp

 

[David Pichevin]

What about you dedicated Mac users? How do you feel?

I'm not "dedicated" as in "I have no religion".

Yeah.

That's rather unusually different, as compared with many Mac users
I've known or read about.

Well, I'm a computer and technology user. don't care who makes it, who's evil and who's not. Don't care if they make big money or not.

I have owned a plethora of machines, starting 16 years ago. Amstrad, Thompson, Atari, Commodore Amiga machines, PCs for 11 years, then a Mac at the same time until I got p*ssed and sole it, and bought another one in July because of OSX (I just couldn't stand Mac OS 9).

No religion. If I think it's good and it floats my boat and I can afford it....

Actually, if I had to choose my computer religion then I would be more of an Amiga maniac than PC or Mac But that's a long time ago.

But what I meant was exactly what you mentioned: Folks who use a
Mac as their primary. The "devout" are also free to chime in.

Very difficult to get objective opinions from fanatics, whether they own a Mac or a PC or whatever you can find on the market.--My photo galleries: http://www.pbase.com/davidp

 

[Fremiet59632]

Let's face it Jobs rocks the boat, maximizes the fanfare because his innovation is credible, appealing and forward looking eg the ipod - which has astonished me with its sales. I take his line of anticipating the future with his products seriously. The digital hub is on its way big time. At first blush the new products are exciting and support his purported direction. i can't wait to try out iphoto. I'm about to download it so, soon I'll see. Just hope my dual 800 isn't outdated soon. I remain, after all is said and done a hopeless Mac fan.

Fremiet

 

[David Pichevin]

I suspect that Mr. Jobs is right. The end is "near" for the CRT.
But, Mr. Job has made a carrer of being just a bit ahead of the
pack.

To this I would add, although I don't like Jobs too much, for some reason, that I think he is right. I mean. Apple has always paid a lot of attention to the computer graphics area and also the professional printing area. They have always promoted good quality graphics and color fidelity and they pay a lot of attention to that part in their system. Colorsync is a very important par of OSX and used by many application. I doubt that they would want to go to all LCD if that wasn't going in the same direction.

It makes sense at a lot of levels, power use etc...and it also makes sense in terms of graphics now with the new LCD technologies.

--My photo galleries: http://www.pbase.com/davidp

 

[DougK]

IMHO monitor calibration is a farce with a LCD display since the contrast and saturation changes dramatically just by tilting the screen differently. LCD displays are fine for text and graphics, but not for photo work where precise color and contract are vital. Long live the CRT.

-- Doug --

I suspect that Mr. Jobs is right. The end is "near" for the CRT.
But, Mr. Job has made a carrer of being just a bit ahead of the
pack.

 

[Fremiet59632]

IMHO monitor calibration is a farce with a LCD display since the
contrast and saturation changes dramatically just by tilting the
screen differently.

Looks like the new imacs will be a tilters heaven!

Fremiet

 

[Frank C.]

Ulysses wrote:

My only disappointment is that like Frank C., I wish that they made
the iMac for the Windows OS. I'd probably snatch one up in a
second. Don't know that I'd use it as a primary PC system. But I'd
definitely get one and think about it.

If I worked in the graphics industry, I wouldn't hestitate
getting an Apple ( they ARE the standard ). Apple did
innovate in a lot of domains ( ie: all the way back to LISA )
and we should be thankful Jobs and Wozniak decided
to "get it on" in their garage in the late seventies. Heck, my
first computer was a IIe and I learned 6502 assembler
on it, but once I hit college IBM pcs were everywhere and
that was the end of of that. There was a slight Mac surge
subsequently but it was too little too late....the standard
was set and Billy G. was well on his way....

 

[Shay Stephens]

I have had a number of CRT's and the color and brightness has never been good enough. I have an LCD on my Sony Vaio, and it is nearly spot on. I am running 800x600 too, but I know I won't be going back to CRT's myself. My next monitor will be an LCD, hopefully 17 inch, which by the way is really 17 inches, not like the CRT 17 inch which is really a 15 or maybe 16 inch.

CRT's are dead like film is dead, in my eye anyway.--ShayMy F707 Gallery: http://f707.shay.ws

 

[Tom Ferguson]

HMMMMM.... I feel a bit "quoted out of context" here. Didn't I say "I still prefer CRT to a flat screen, though I admit the flats are getting better and better"?

My point was NOT that flat screens were equal to CRTs for photo work. Nor for "Graphics" which, despite your comment, requires as much monitor fidelity as photo work.

My point was that the flats are getting better and better. The "contrast and saturation changes dramatically just by tilting" issue is real, but FAR better than it was 2 years ago. It appears that flat screens will soon equal the color fidelity of CRTs. They already exceed the geometry fidelity of CRTs. My "crystal ball" says that Mr. Jobs is right. My crystal ball says that in 3 years very few will be buying a CRT.

So, please don't feel that I was saying anyone (you) had to switch now/soon. Mr. Jobs has always "pushed the envelop", which makes some folks uncomfortable. Those folks shop at Gateway ;-)

-- Doug --

I suspect that Mr. Jobs is right. The end is "near" for the CRT.
But, Mr. Job has made a carrer of being just a bit ahead of the
pack.

--Tom Ferguson http://www.ferguson-photo-design.comF707 Studio Info Page: http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

 

[David Pichevin]

IMHO monitor calibration is a farce with a LCD display since the
contrast and saturation changes dramatically just by tilting the
screen differently. LCD displays are fine for text and graphics,
but not for photo work where precise color and contract are vital.
Long live the CRT.

You are wrong. LCD have a maximum angle but a good one won't change much unless you go very far from the screen, in which case you are not really using it. Good LCDs now HAVE precise color for photo work. That's a fact.--My photo galleries: http://www.pbase.com/davidp

 

[Ulysses]

David -

Thanks for all your time and input (and your timely input, as well, since I do intend to do something about this in the near future).

I don't know exactly what the outcome will be in the end for me and my budget, but you've given me some good resources to think about. I will look into this more deeply.

But really, do try to see some good ones in a good setup, in a
place where you can play with them.

I will definitely try to do that. -- Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

BTW, this is all more than simply about Apple and LCD for its own sake.

Most of the folks here try to take very seriously their images and their editing. Some of us even rely upon it for paying opportunities and even for daily business.

I found this segment of the thread to be enlightening and invigorating as it's given me some new stuff to think about. That's the STF at its best. How to get the best and the most out of your images doesn't stop when you've let go of the shutter button, but goes beyond that and into the other equipment that you're using. -- Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

Our iMacs get moved between rooms at the studio a lot as
well as back and forth to home. The new design has the computer,
the keyboard, the mouse, and three speakers (with iSub). Simply
too darned many pieces. If this design hangs around (versus the
Cube - which had the same "fatal" flaw of too many pieces) then our
next round will be Titaniums or the new 14" iBook.

I'm not sure I follow you. The new design seems to be nearly as integrated and less bulky. Certainly lighter weight. The only "extras" are that you now have better speakers that are not integrated into the box. Actually, there IS no box now.

Speaking as a PC user, I like the look overall. I'd get one for my wife if we weren't already established with our PC systems for work and personal use. I'd use her as the guinea pig and possibly get one for myself. But we're pretty firmly entrenched in the Wintel systems, not because we're great believers, but because we are simply rooted at this time.

I'd consider one for graphics work if I were convinced it had the horsepower and ease I'd like. -- Ulysses

 

[DougK]

Tom: Sorry for quoting you out of context. I guess I was reacting more to Steve Jobs CRT death notice than to your comments.

LCD technology certainly has come a long way. However, CRTs are not standing still either. Shorter yokes make for slimmer, lighter monitors. The new crop of affordable flat face CRT's eliminate the bothersome curvature (which was one of the benefits of LCD's over CRT's in the past). It will be interesting to see which technology leads in the price/performance race as time goes on. I suspect that both technologies will survive (contrary to Steve Jobs assessment) and will serve different user needs, unless of course they are both usurped by some other technology.

In the meantime I will stick with my CRT since I can't afford anything else after blowing my savings on the DSC-S85.

-- Doug --

My point was NOT that flat screens were equal to CRTs for photo
work. Nor for "Graphics" which, despite your comment, requires as
much monitor fidelity as photo work.

My point was that the flats are getting better and better. The
"contrast and saturation changes dramatically just by tilting"
issue is real, but FAR better than it was 2 years ago. It appears
that flat screens will soon equal the color fidelity of CRTs. They
already exceed the geometry fidelity of CRTs. My "crystal ball"
says that Mr. Jobs is right. My crystal ball says that in 3 years
very few will be buying a CRT.

So, please don't feel that I was saying anyone (you) had to switch
now/soon. Mr. Jobs has always "pushed the envelop", which makes
some folks uncomfortable. Those folks shop at Gateway ;-)

-- Doug --

I suspect that Mr. Jobs is right. The end is "near" for the CRT.
But, Mr. Job has made a carrer of being just a bit ahead of the
pack.

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com
F707 Studio Info Page:
http://www.pipeline.com/~tomf2468/temp1.html

 

[Ulysses]

Very difficult to get objective opinions from fanatics, whether
they own a Mac or a PC or whatever you can find on the market.

"Objective" doesn't always suite the purpose either. I want to hear from people who are excited one way or another. If I want objective, I can go and read Time magazine's "objective" ad for Apple --- oops, I mean their cutting edge news reporting.

Seriously, I like reading from someone who's a bit passionate about what they use. For instance, one might say that I'm probably a Mac user trapped in a PC body. )-- Ulysses

 

[fg]

I'd consider one for graphics work if I were convinced it had the
horsepower and ease I'd like.

What are you running on the wintel side Uly? I assume you're aware of the Mhz myth?
I edit 3.3mp images comfortably on a 3 year old 300mhz 604e mac with 512 RAM.

A 800mhz G4 would be pretty snappy... 1.5Ghz p3 maybe?

-fg---fg

 

[Ulysses]

Well, I use both platforms at differant locations / clients. But, I
chose Mac for my own office and home. Does that make me
"dedicated"??

I dunno? Maybe I'd say it's a Primary system for you. When I think of "dedicated" users, I think of sort of exclusive users. You're pretty close, if you're using it at home. )

I suspect that Mr. Jobs is right. The end is "near" for the CRT.

I don't really doubt him. I just wonder if the time is yet. I honestly don't know because at this time, I'm not educated enough about the present level of LCD tech. But I'm rapidly getting there.

But, Mr. Job has made a carrer of being just a bit ahead of the
pack... Makes for a real fun show!

You know, I've always said that when you go to a circus, the real fun stuff isn't what's happening in the big tent. It's what's going on in the sideshow displays. For example, when you get a guy who is trying to sell you snake oil, and he really believes that it WILL put hair on your head, that it WILL cure your gout, that it WILL improve your love life, and that it WILL add about 25% more lifespan, and sells with with style, with class, with unbounded enthusiasm... you know what? He's gonna sell a lot of snake oil. And you just might experience at least some of what he claims.

You've simply GOT to enjoy Jobs. He's not only a decent businessman, but he's simply such a good show to watch.

I suspect that Mr. Job's speach / action will speed that up.

His speech, though lacking in detail (I need to see the LCD for myself), was compelling.

So, I'm not disapointed. The I-Mac is Apple's "consumer" model. It
isn't aimed at professional photographers or graphic designers. The
I-mac is a smart place to start the changeover from CRT to flat.

Whaddya mean???? There were all these pros and artists behind it: Annie Liebermann... Francis Ford Cappolla... Seal... !! I mean, c'mon!! )

-- Ulysses