Should Canon make DSLR with on-body IS?

Hi Lee Jay,

First of all that is a very nice shot!
Thanks.
Secondly, I'm sure if you had a 7D and 400/4.5 G with the AS turned
on you still would have made that shot.
You are wrong about that. I've tried it, as I said, with the IS off and I get dramatically out-of-focus shots because I'm unable to keep the center focus point on the airplane.
Also, how is that any
different than any of my shots with the 300/4 and the 7D. I know
AS/IS does not stop the action but I turn on the AS all the time as
I need a bit of stability when my arms get tired especially in
tennis events where I usually shoot for 6 hours.
For me, it'a about the ability to put the AF point where I want it and keep it there long enough for AI servo to track it and predict the needed focus location accurately. In the full-size of that shot, the tail is just a bit out-of-focus because of shallow depth-of-field The plane is about 9 feet long and coming at me at 250 feet per second. AF has to be deadly accurate or you're going to miss completely.
Here on this shots, my centre focus point was always on the subject
like yours. In other words, I still don't see a difference between
AS and IS.
How do you know it was on the subject continuously while you are framing? Plus, the camera-to-subject distance isn't changing so it doesn't matter much.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
I suspect that Canon will add this in the lower end cameras like the XXXD series because of market pressure -- they as much as say so in the paper. I think this is sad because I believe that the lens based IS probably performs better for all the reasons already stated. At least Canon seems to believe that they can get better performance using this approach. Nikon also seems to lean this way as well.

Hopefully if they do this they won’t add it to their higher performance XXD and XD bodies. I would rather see Canon focus (pardon the pun) on picture quality and meaningful features and leave the gimmicks to the likes of Sony. Canon already has an IS system that works quite well.
 
Dunno if you've seen images taken with some of the primes and in-body AS, but they look good to me, and there is no way that Canon or anyone else are going to put IS into those sort of lenses.

If you are in a seriously low-light situation and can't use a tripod, then it will get shots you can't get with other equipment.
Not a bad option to have, IMO.

I also can't see any way Canon or Nikon would say:- 'look guys, Sony's inbody stuff is a lot better than our in-lens AS!' - so their assessment should be taken with a few ladles of salt.

I accept that in some ways the in-lens is better, certainly at long focal lengths, but those lenses aren't going to go away anyway.
I suspect that Canon will add this in the lower end cameras like
the XXXD series because of market pressure -- they as much as say
so in the paper. I think this is sad because I believe that the
lens based IS probably performs better for all the reasons already
stated. At least Canon seems to believe that they can get better
performance using this approach. Nikon also seems to lean this way
as well.

Hopefully if they do this they won’t add it to their higher
performance XXD and XD bodies. I would rather see Canon focus
(pardon the pun) on picture quality and meaningful features and
leave the gimmicks to the likes of Sony. Canon already has an IS
system that works quite well.
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
 
I think I'm past the point of buying another camera w/o IS. For the naysayers I have the following questions:

1.) Do they have any proof that in body IS doesn't work as well? I see a lot of words, no testing. Looks like the Pentax body IS may work BETTER - that my opinion, probaby more valid than others.

2.) Are people really saying that every single lens they own is an IS one? If not, wouldn't the non-IS lenses they own be improved by body IS? Hmmm, how many primes have IS? Now everyone can. Why is that such a big deal.

3.) Lens buyers seem to come in two categories - either "this lens w/b perfect if it had IS" or "how come this lens is so expensive - I didn't really want IS so why did they put it in?" In body IS will solve this.

Regardless, soon eveyr single dSLR will have IS except Canon, maybe Nikon. I'll bet Nikon will be next to go. With patents and all that may leave Canon with an inferior IS approach.

I really don't see why people are afraid of in body IS. Cost doesn't seem to be an issue, there's usually an off option, so what's not to like?
 
1.) Do they have any proof that in body IS doesn't work as well?
Yes, they don't work at all on the viewfinder or autofocus sensors. That alone makes them inferior.
I
see a lot of words, no testing. Looks like the Pentax body IS may
work BETTER - that my opinion, probaby more valid than others.

2.) Are people really saying that every single lens they own is an
IS one?
No, but all my non-IS lenses are 40mm or shorter. I don't need it on lenses that short.
3.) Lens buyers seem to come in two categories - either "this lens
w/b perfect if it had IS" or "how come this lens is so expensive -
I didn't really want IS so why did they put it in?" In body IS will
solve this.
So, you're saying there is no marginal cost for in-body IS?
I really don't see why people are afraid of in body IS. Cost
doesn't seem to be an issue, there's usually an off option, so
what's not to like?
That anyone using it may stop producing of IS lenses.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
I think I'm past the point of buying another camera w/o IS. For the
naysayers I have the following questions:

1.) Do they have any proof that in body IS doesn't work as well? I
see a lot of words, no testing. Looks like the Pentax body IS may
work BETTER - that my opinion, probaby more valid than others.
The proof is in the partical solution this system presents. You as most proponents are forgetting the autofocus, metering and viewfinder, all three systems very important (at least as important) to the final image and all three not part of the solution.
2.) Are people really saying that every single lens they own is an
IS one? If not, wouldn't the non-IS lenses they own be improved by
body IS? Hmmm, how many primes have IS? Now everyone can. Why is
that such a big deal.
Why is IS needed in every lens. It's not! Because IS only really is necessary in maybe 10% of the lenses (long telephoto mostly) and useful for at most 10% of the shots (the useful shutter speed range for IS is quite limited and most pictures are limiting the usefulness themselves because they involve motion on the subject side) taken with these. So it's at most 1% of pictures that benefit from having IS. Of those 1% I'm willing to bet that more than 90% can be taken by using a tripod or monopod, and one can rely more on these measures than any IS system as the effecitivity relies heavily on your own capabilities. Have a stressful week, drink too much coffee and the parameters that worked last week will not work for you now. Both the monopod and especially the tripod will eliminate this inconsistency problem once and for all.
3.) Lens buyers seem to come in two categories - either "this lens
w/b perfect if it had IS"
I chose most of my lenses without IS because (having had first hand experience with the intricacies of IS and it's inconsistency) I drew the conclusion that I better handle the situation by resorting to the proper measures than try to continue taking short cuts.

On the one lens in my lineup that has IS I have it disabled most of the time when taking the shot - not so when framing and focusing on my tripod, then the IS is really helpful as any movement I make while focusing will be transferred to the tripod and make the viewfinder image less stable and hard to judge focus. But on the final image I have mirror lock up enabled - which will have a much greater positive impact on the final image than in body IS would have. If the 400 f/5.6L lens been officially available where I live (no tedious import procedure involved with warranty and shipping risks) I would have that instead of the IS lens I have because of the better optical performance of the prime against the zoom lens.
or "how come this lens is so expensive -
I didn't really want IS so why did they put it in?" In body IS will
solve this.
No it won't. It will put one more mechanical system that can and will break into the camera body, thereby increasing the risk of complete failure.
I really don't see why people are afraid of in body IS. Cost
doesn't seem to be an issue, there's usually an off option, so
what's not to like?
The cost may be hidden but it is there to pay. It comes in less camera reliability (one more system to break), more noise because no heat sink can be connected to the sensor, one more system that will need servicing. Already there are reports coming in from people that have dead D7D or D5D's that are unservicable by Sony. I'm pretty sure that one of the systems that can't be fixed because of the lack of spare parts is the in body AS as Sony has changed the design for the A100...
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
Visit my gallery at
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/461808
 
Why is IS needed in every lens. It's not! Because IS only really is
necessary in maybe 10% of the lenses (long telephoto mostly) and
useful for at most 10% of the shots (the useful shutter speed range
for IS is quite limited and most pictures are limiting the
usefulness themselves because they involve motion on the subject
side) taken with these. So it's at most 1% of pictures that benefit
from having IS.
Holy cow, you must shoot way differently than I do. I just sold my 100/2 because I was missing too many shots because it didn't have IS.
Of those 1% I'm willing to bet that more than 90%
can be taken by using a tripod or monopod, and one can rely more on
these measures than any IS system as the effecitivity relies
heavily on your own capabilities.
I consistently found a monopod to be about 1 stop worse than in-lens IS. And it's way more restrictive, not to mention heavy and large.
Have a stressful week, drink too
much coffee and the parameters that worked last week will not work
for you now. Both the monopod and especially the tripod will
eliminate this inconsistency problem once and for all.
A tripod might, a monopod won't. But tripods are a huge pain and cause me to miss more shots than lack of IS does.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
--

Your not going to see it on a DSLR. They have too much R&D
invested in IS lenses.

Jim V.
http://www.victoryphoto.net
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
--

I didn't say never. I don't think Canon's focus is on in body IS on DSLRs right now. They are still introducing them on P&S cameras where they are very useful.

Their DSLR market is calling for other types of improvements at this time. Their new prosumers lenses are being fitted with IS so it appears their emphasis is their developement not in body.

Jim V.
http://www.victoryphoto.net
 
A tripod might, a monopod won't. But tripods are a huge pain and
cause me to miss more shots than lack of IS does.
Having seen your previous posts, have you thought of getting a wimberly head or wimberly sidekick? I'm pretty sure this very nice tripod head will give you the same if not better tracking ability IS gives you...
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
Visit my gallery at
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/461808
 
It doesn't seem you are very keen on any IS, whether in-camera or not.
You also seem to refer mainly to your own shooting style.

Well, IS in lenses seems to have caught on very well, and those who have actually used in-body AS are usually pretty happy with it.

You ain't gonna persuade most of us to lug a tripod I am afraid, or decise that we 'shouldn't' have a use for AS at shorter focal legths.

If you shoot differently, more power to your elbow, but I would be prepared to bet heavily that in-body AS will prove extremely popular, even if we 'shouldn't' want it!
I think I'm past the point of buying another camera w/o IS. For the
naysayers I have the following questions:

1.) Do they have any proof that in body IS doesn't work as well? I
see a lot of words, no testing. Looks like the Pentax body IS may
work BETTER - that my opinion, probaby more valid than others.
The proof is in the partical solution this system presents. You as
most proponents are forgetting the autofocus, metering and
viewfinder, all three systems very important (at least as
important) to the final image and all three not part of the
solution.
2.) Are people really saying that every single lens they own is an
IS one? If not, wouldn't the non-IS lenses they own be improved by
body IS? Hmmm, how many primes have IS? Now everyone can. Why is
that such a big deal.
Why is IS needed in every lens. It's not! Because IS only really is
necessary in maybe 10% of the lenses (long telephoto mostly) and
useful for at most 10% of the shots (the useful shutter speed range
for IS is quite limited and most pictures are limiting the
usefulness themselves because they involve motion on the subject
side) taken with these. So it's at most 1% of pictures that benefit
from having IS. Of those 1% I'm willing to bet that more than 90%
can be taken by using a tripod or monopod, and one can rely more on
these measures than any IS system as the effecitivity relies
heavily on your own capabilities. Have a stressful week, drink too
much coffee and the parameters that worked last week will not work
for you now. Both the monopod and especially the tripod will
eliminate this inconsistency problem once and for all.
3.) Lens buyers seem to come in two categories - either "this lens
w/b perfect if it had IS"
I chose most of my lenses without IS because (having had first hand
experience with the intricacies of IS and it's inconsistency) I
drew the conclusion that I better handle the situation by resorting
to the proper measures than try to continue taking short cuts.
On the one lens in my lineup that has IS I have it disabled most of
the time when taking the shot - not so when framing and focusing on
my tripod, then the IS is really helpful as any movement I make
while focusing will be transferred to the tripod and make the
viewfinder image less stable and hard to judge focus. But on the
final image I have mirror lock up enabled - which will have a much
greater positive impact on the final image than in body IS would
have. If the 400 f/5.6L lens been officially available where I live
(no tedious import procedure involved with warranty and shipping
risks) I would have that instead of the IS lens I have because of
the better optical performance of the prime against the zoom lens.
or "how come this lens is so expensive -
I didn't really want IS so why did they put it in?" In body IS will
solve this.
No it won't. It will put one more mechanical system that can and
will break into the camera body, thereby increasing the risk of
complete failure.
I really don't see why people are afraid of in body IS. Cost
doesn't seem to be an issue, there's usually an off option, so
what's not to like?
The cost may be hidden but it is there to pay. It comes in less
camera reliability (one more system to break), more noise because
no heat sink can be connected to the sensor, one more system that
will need servicing. Already there are reports coming in from
people that have dead D7D or D5D's that are unservicable by Sony.
I'm pretty sure that one of the systems that can't be fixed because
of the lack of spare parts is the in body AS as Sony has changed
the design for the A100...
--
regards
Karl Günter Wünsch
Visit my gallery at
http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/mypics/461808
--
Regards,
DaveMart

'Just a wildebeast on the plain of life'
Please see profile for equipment
 
Having seen your previous posts, have you thought of getting a
wimberly head or wimberly sidekick? I'm pretty sure this very nice
tripod head will give you the same if not better tracking ability
IS gives you...
That might help for airplanes but probably not. Having to track vertically means you have to tip-toe or kneel down to keep your eye on the viewfinder.

But it doesn't help at all when you are crawling around on the ground between tables and chairs to get shots like this one:



That was 3-stops below 1/f and already at f2.8 and ISO 800. I would have needed about ISO 6400 to get that shot without IS.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
Did you see they just announced a 70-200 f4 with IS????

Are you paying attention to what they're doing instead of what you want them to do?

Why would they bother to do that if they were going to go in-body IS?

Well, I have yet to hear a good answer to this question????
 
I probably won't buy another non-IS in body camera. If that's not enough reason for Canon it doesn't really matter to me - seems like there is lots of competition out there.
 
When you have a monopoly and can afford to ignore the competition. Historically, when companies that had a near monopoly ignored the upstarts because "no one needed that technology, and what we have is good enough" that company went out of business.

In body IS is smart technology and makes sense. To ignore it to save your old technology is a dead end.
 
In body IS is smart technology and makes sense. To ignore it to
save your old technology is a dead end.
It makes sense because it's cheap up-front and applies to lenses without IS. It especially applies to companies who have very few or no IS lenses.

But it's still weak and inferior technology that probably costs more in the long run.

But Canon will end up having to implement it because consumers aren't always informed enough to know the difference.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
So, if Canon does come out with internal IS, and you use an IS lens, do you get a total of 4-6 extra stops of shutter, lol?
 

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