pentax DSLR getting heavy

There is somewhat 'fascist' tendency in this forum at times, with a
Think of Godwin's law, you came very close ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
I wasn't sure I could spell 'authoritarian' ;-) I certainly didn't mean to evoke those particular analogies... I used the word in the 'political' rather than 'historical' context and just meant that I'm fed-up with this 'you must follow the standard line' garbage and general intolerance for alternative opinions. This forum has always been a little like this, but there have been other, compensatory benefits
IF I DON'T WANT TO BUY THE K10D BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT'S TOO BIG, AND
I CHOOSE TO EXPRESS THIS THEN YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL ME TO
EITHER 'STOP' OR TO 'DEAL WITH IT'
But now you're telling him what to express or not to express..
Hum... but only in relation to others, there's a bit of a difference
In such a situation IMHO it would be better to just ignore the post.
Maybe you're right!

Regards!
 
I measure 31mm from the middle of the K-mount to the bottom of my
DS which I think is the constraining dimension here (there is more
space above the sensor and plenty each side). Does the SR
mechanism have a physical height greater than 62mm? If not then I
don't see why either camera needs to be bigger. I certainly can't
see why the SR cameras need to be wider
Obviously like yourself I wasn't on the design team so I'm just making guesses, in any case I doubt that they made it bigger just for the sake of it. Given their almost frenetic tendency towards producing small DSLRs uand lenses I'd assume that they made it as small as was possible at the time.
But they did for the DL... this has a different body moulding
from the DS even though there are in some repsects fewer
differences between those two cameras...
But they are different cameras mechanically, the rear LCD screens are even a different size.
My film days were (still are!) based-around Minolta X700/X500, sure
I'm a much less advanced user than yourself, but I also got used to
carrying kit of a certain size which even then I often found
annoying. The 350D and DS/DL were the only bodies that offered a
similar camera body size to my X700, which is what encouraged me to
buy a DSLR and basically directed me to Pentax (also the lenses).
If you want the best quality, and don't care about size (a la 67
and 645 system) then the Canon 5D & 1DII surely offer this at the
moment, or maybe the 645D when it arrives
My film days were primarily based around Pentax SLRs (well for 20 years at least), the only reason I bought a Pentax DSLR was simply so that I could use my lens collection on a digital body so size is of minimal consequence to me.
Not for you, maybe, but I am currently very happy with my ability
to squeeze my DS and set of small primes into a small case for
weekends-away and holidays (I would be even happier if I could
replace the D16-45 with a couple of smaller primes at the
wide-end). The size of smaller cases will be constrained by at
least one dimension of the camera - height or width - if that
increases then so does the required size of the case. I'm
seriously considering getting a second DS, while it's still just
possible to find one new, as the size of K100D and K10D appear to
be real deterrents to me
I think I'd wait and test it before passing judgement, it's really not significantly larger than the other bodies. If you need an ultra small DSLR then the DS/DS2 bodies will always be hard to beat no matter who you turn to.
Horses for courses!
For sure.

--
Rob

 
Furthermore, my current understanding is that the SR-less K110D
will be the same size as the K100D - how does one explain that?
Pentax being lazy with the body moldings? The DS and DL had
different body shells (even though they looked the same at first
glance) - can't Pentax do the same for the K100D and the K110D?
Strictly cost. Developing two bodies would make zero sense for cameras that share so much. Pentax would be stupid to try to do so as far as I am concerned.
Just to show that this (marketing?) trend is not limited to Pentax,
one might also notice that the Sony A100 is (needlessly) bigger
than its KM5D parent - 10MP needs 'more space' than 6MP? LOL!
(please - no suggestions that 'more circuitry' is needed)
I have to say I personally am rather surprised by the 'open-arms'
with which many existing Pentax owners posting on this forum are
greeting the relatively large size of the K10D (more-or-less Nikon
D80 size, from what I understand) - kind of makes me wonder a
little why they bought into the brand in the first place!
I guess that for some, they bought into Pentax for size, but it is strange to hear you suggest that most of us bought into Pentax for size reasons alone.There are many reasons why someone might choose Pentax. The tone of the above paragraph suggests size is the only reason to do so; it was not even a bit of a reason for me.

Quite frankly, I believe that for the majority of potetntial Pentax customers, the size was a mark against, not for the brand. Quite honestly, I have had people look and make comments on the relatively small size of my DS (the D not so much, because of the battery grip I use). These compliments were almost never given in an entirely positive light, they were more along the lines of "your camera is so small and cute, are you really sure it is professional enough for your uses". As Pentax users, we like our brand and its attributes, but I would say that for the vast majority of the public, the small size meant less robust or less professional, not more ergonomic or portable. I would guess that Pentax has come to the realization that size does matter to the majority of the public and people want bigger, though perhaps not huge.

Summing it up, I believe that on the whole, Pentax lost sales due to size and the newer, larger cameras might help to get the train back on the right track. Also,I know many will make the arguement that the 350D and D50 were small too, as a reaction to Pentax. Quite honestly, I am not buying it. C&N did this for a few reasons, not the most important being aiming at those who want a small DSLR. You will notice though, that the cameras C&N want to sell are all larger; their size is at least psychologically an upsell feature, I am very convinced of this.

--



http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com

Have camera, will travel
 
Hi Darren
Strictly cost. Developing two bodies would make zero sense for
cameras that share so much. Pentax would be stupid to try to do so
as far as I am concerned.
Even if they could market one on size? We're talking about tens or even hundreds of thousands of production units here... would two different mouldings really be such an overhead? But then, maybe Pentax don't want to market on (small) size, as we both suspect! :-)
I have to say I personally am rather surprised by the 'open-arms'
with which many existing Pentax owners posting on this forum are
greeting the relatively large size of the K10D (more-or-less Nikon
D80 size, from what I understand) - kind of makes me wonder a
little why they bought into the brand in the first place!
I guess that for some, they bought into Pentax for size, but it is
strange to hear you suggest that most of us bought into Pentax for
size reasons alone.There are many reasons why someone might choose
Pentax. The tone of the above paragraph suggests size is the only
reason to do so; it was not even a bit of a reason for me.
Fair comment, maybe my paragraph was poorly phrased

I certainly wasn't trying to 'speak for anybody'. I guess I was kind of assuming that many of us with DL/DS were enjoying the practical benefits that a small camera brings and so would not welcome the impact that an increase in that size will have. I also (just!) remember when the ME Super was launched - the way it was marketed on small-size&'techno-buttons' and the appeal that had to many people then, I extrapolated this to a semi-assumuption that some long-time Pentax users might have bought-into the system for reasons of size
Quite frankly, I believe that for the majority of potential Pentax
customers, the size was a mark against, not for the brand. Quite
honestly, I have had people look and make comments on the
relatively small size of my DS (the D not so much, because of the
battery grip I use). These compliments were almost never given in
an entirely positive light, they were more along the lines of "your
camera is so small and cute, are you really sure it is professional
enough for your uses".
Absolutely! This was one of my points, whether the size increase is for 'non-technical' reasons

This is noticable in 'western' countries but even more so in growing economies. We both have experience of 'developing markets' (ie. SE Asia, China, India) and so are maybe more aware of the importance that 'Status through possession' has in the new consumerism there. Putting it rather simplistically (and crudely), if you've got something 'nice' then it needs to be 'visible' - this is certainly the reason for the increase in the size of many Mobile Phone models over the last few years

This may well also explain the increase in size of newer Pentax models, or maybe it is for technical reasons... all I know is I don't like it! :-)
Summing it up, I believe that on the whole, Pentax lost sales due
to size and the newer, larger cameras might help to get the train
back on the right track. Also,I know many will make the arguement
that the 350D and D50 were small too, as a reaction to Pentax.
Quite honestly, I am not buying it. C&N did this for a few
reasons, not the most important being aiming at those who want a
small DSLR.
The 350D was aimed primarily at women and P&S upgraders... you will maybe have noticed a number of television 'Holiday Programs' (eg. on the BBC World program schedule) in which the female reporter was shown using a 350D (product placement). Size and a 'killer' feature set (ie. non-crippled, unlike the 300D) were its marketing features and Canon were out to gain EOS-mount market penetration from new users with the 'right product' at the perfect time. The tragety is that Pentax was 'there first' with the DS, but poor marketing, and very poor pricing (in Europe) prevented it being the success it deserved. Did Canon copy Pentax? No idea, but like you I doubt it was a direct copy (though the 400D is now copying a few ex-KM features like eye-sensors and single-LCD)...
You will notice though, that the cameras C&N want to
sell are all larger; their size is at least psychologically an
upsell feature, I am very convinced of this.
Yes... I've been hanging-around near the 'pros', close to the stage at a few concerts recently... whilst watching them there was obviously an element of body-and-lens preening/envy going on between them and 'who's got the biggest' was definately a factor!

However there was a market for 35mm rangefinder cameras and surely the smaller Pentax DSLRs could tag onto this? Or maybe Leica/Olympus are going to go for that market while Pentax try to take it head-to-head with Nikon and Sony?

Regards!
 
Hi Rob
parallaxproblem wrote:
Obviously like yourself I wasn't on the design team
True :-)
so I'm just making guesses, in any case I doubt that they made it bigger just
for the sake of it. Given their almost frenetic tendency towards
producing small DSLRs uand lenses I'd assume that they made it as
small as was possible at the time.
Maybe... but see Darren's post and my reply to it, there may be other factors...
But they are different cameras mechanically, the rear LCD screens
are even a different size.
Not so different as far as I know... they both use the same metal frame, and if you look at the back of the DS you'll see the 'partially-blanked' plastic window can easily be replaced with clear one to enable a 2.5" LCD to be fitted (I think this was always the idea!). I believe the DS2 (a DS with 2.5" LCD and firmware upgrade) and the DS used the same body moulding with a different plastic window allowing a larger LCD to be visible

The differences in the body moulding between DL and DS were:
1. The grip was a slightly different shape
2. The pentaprism/pentamirror area was a different shape
3. The DL was overall very slightly smaller than the DS

Or at least this was what a Pentax 'tech' told me when I discussed it with him!
I think I'd wait and test it before passing judgement, it's really
not significantly larger than the other bodies.
Very true... I reserve my right to change my mind totally on everything I've said in this thread!

In six months time you'll doubtless see me posing on how much I love the extra stability I get from the weight of my K10D and how much better it feels in my hands than my previous model! :-)

Regards!
 
K100D
Weight (inc. batteries) 660 g (23.3 oz)
Dimensions 129 x 93 x 70 mm (5.1 x 3.7 x 2.8 in)

DS-DS2
Weight (inc. batteries) 605 g (21.3 oz)
Dimensions 125 x 93 x 66 mm (4.9 x 3.7 x 2.6 in)

DL-DL2
Weight (inc. batteries) 565 g (19.9 oz)
Dimensions 125 x 93 x 66 mm (4.9 x 3.7 x 2.6 in)

vs.

D80
Weight (inc. batteries) 668 g (23.6 oz)
Dimensions 132 x 103 x 77 mm (5.2 x 4.1 x 3 in)
Pentax K1000
Width x Height x Depth 143 x 91.5 x 49 mm
Weight 620 g

Pentax KX
Width x Height x Depth 143 x 91.4 x 49 mm
Weight 631 g

MX
Width x Height x Depth 143 x 91.5 x 49 mm
Weight 620 g

LX
Width x Height x Depth 144.5 x 90.5 x 50 mm
Weight 570 g

PZ1-P
Width x Height x Depth 152 x 95.5 x 74 mm
Weight 650 g

MZ-S
Width x Height x Depth 136.5 x 95 x 64 mm
Weight 520 g
How about K10D ? 700g?
... not for hiking.
:)
I have both the KX and the MX. I think the KX is nicer, MX often seems too small
--
janneman
http://www.pbase.com/jl2

 
MX
Width x Height x Depth 143 x 91.5 x 49 mm
Weight 620 g

LX
Width x Height x Depth 144.5 x 90.5 x 50 mm
Weight 570 g
Interesting! I always regarded my LX's as bigger and heavier than my MX. Do the LX dimensions and weight include a viewfinder?

Jerry
 
Interesting! I always regarded my LX's as bigger and heavier than
my MX. Do the LX dimensions and weight include a viewfinder?
565g with the FA-1

--
Rob

 
Thanks, Rob. That number is right on and much smaller than I expected. Turns out I'm not nuts, however, about the relative sizes of the LX and MX. Your reply prompted me to get off my lazy b* t and dig out the manuals. The MX manual lists the body at 495 grams with dimensions of 135.5mm x 82.5mm x 49.5mm - considerably smaller than an LX.

Glad you posted the reply: gives me the impetus to look through the manuals of these wonderful old cameras - an activity I'm sure to enjoy.

Jerry
 
K100D
Weight (inc. batteries) 660 g (23.3 oz)
Dimensions 129 x 93 x 70 mm (5.1 x 3.7 x 2.8 in)

DS-DS2
Weight (inc. batteries) 605 g (21.3 oz)
Dimensions 125 x 93 x 66 mm (4.9 x 3.7 x 2.6 in)

DL-DL2
Weight (inc. batteries) 565 g (19.9 oz)
Dimensions 125 x 93 x 66 mm (4.9 x 3.7 x 2.6 in)

vs.

D80
Weight (inc. batteries) 668 g (23.6 oz)
Dimensions 132 x 103 x 77 mm (5.2 x 4.1 x 3 in)
Pentax K1000
Width x Height x Depth 143 x 91.5 x 49 mm
Weight 620 g

Pentax KX
Width x Height x Depth 143 x 91.4 x 49 mm
Weight 631 g

MX
Width x Height x Depth 143 x 91.5 x 49 mm
Weight 620 g
Excuse me, I copypasted the wrong data:
MX
Width x Height x Depth 135.8 x 82.5 x 49.3 mm
Weight 495 g
LX
Width x Height x Depth 144.5 x 90.5 x 50 mm
Weight 570 g

PZ1-P
Width x Height x Depth 152 x 95.5 x 74 mm
Weight 650 g

MZ-S
Width x Height x Depth 136.5 x 95 x 64 mm
Weight 520 g
How about K10D ? 700g?
... not for hiking.
:)
I have both the KX and the MX. I think the KX is nicer, MX often
seems too small
--
janneman
http://www.pbase.com/jl2

--
janneman
http://www.pbase.com/jl2

 
Thanks, Rob. That number is right on and much smaller than I
expected. Turns out I'm not nuts, however, about the relative
sizes of the LX and MX. Your reply prompted me to get off my lazy
b* t and dig out the manuals. The MX manual lists the body at 495
grams with dimensions of 135.5mm x 82.5mm x 49.5mm - considerably
smaller than an LX.
I was nuts, I miscopypasted some data.
Glad you posted the reply: gives me the impetus to look through the
manuals of these wonderful old cameras - an activity I'm sure to
enjoy.

Jerry
--
janneman
http://www.pbase.com/jl2

 
K100D
Weight (inc. batteries) 660 g (23.3 oz)
Dimensions 129 x 93 x 70 mm (5.1 x 3.7 x 2.8 in)

DS-DS2
Weight (inc. batteries) 605 g (21.3 oz)
Dimensions 125 x 93 x 66 mm (4.9 x 3.7 x 2.6 in)

DL-DL2
Weight (inc. batteries) 565 g (19.9 oz)
Dimensions 125 x 93 x 66 mm (4.9 x 3.7 x 2.6 in)

vs.

D80
Weight (inc. batteries) 668 g (23.6 oz)
Dimensions 132 x 103 x 77 mm (5.2 x 4.1 x 3 in)
Pentax K1000
Width x Height x Depth 143 x 91.5 x 49 mm
Weight 620 g

Pentax KX
Width x Height x Depth 143 x 91.4 x 49 mm
Weight 631 g

MX
Width x Height x Depth 143 x 91.5 x 49 mm
Weight 620 g

LX
Width x Height x Depth 144.5 x 90.5 x 50 mm
Weight 570 g

PZ1-P
Width x Height x Depth 152 x 95.5 x 74 mm
Weight 650 g

MZ-S
Width x Height x Depth 136.5 x 95 x 64 mm
Weight 520 g
Pentax ME Super - 131.5 x 83 x 49.5 445g
Pentax MG - 132 x 85 x 49.5 423g
Pentax Super A/Program A - 131 x 86.4 x 47.5 490g
 
Oh I get it Sarcasm....ok

Its more like 150+ grams, and even more than that compared to some of the competition coming out. If you've done a lot of photography you had to have noticed that it's somewhat different from working out or just lifting something. In the camera world 100+ grams is a lot. Add a lens, Add a flash and now shoot continuously with it for a couple of hours. Even phil pointed out the use of lithium batteries in his review of the istDL to reduce weight even more. Thats probably less than 50g difference.

Personally I have a partially torn rotator cuff and the cramped position of holding a camera to my eye bothers it. 100grams is a huge different. Enough difference for me to buy an istDL, for the lesser weight over my Olympus E-1.

I think the point is that smaller and lighter is something Pentax has become known for, but their not the king of that hill anymore! The Alpha and the k10D are basically the same camera. Alpha is more than 70g lighter than the weight being discussed with the k10D.
 
The DS/DL cameras were standouts for small size/weight.

But as others have said, the extra weight is the price we pay for the features. The extra weight associated with the SR in the K100D is worth it to me. I hope Pentax keeps a focus on compactness and light weight, however.

Nicholas
 
You said the k10D would be the lightest in it's class. Alpha is it's direct competition at 638g.

I have a shoulder problem and I know my weight threshold, it's about 1200-1300 grams. Add lens and flash and you get there quick. A couple of hundred grams in the body can reallly help.
 
if we are complaining about the weight of our pentax cameras. try this-

nikon d2xs 1070 grams body only
canon 1ds markII 1215 grams body only

feel better now?
 
Given that a lot of us have been with Pentax from the film days and
were prepared to tote about 67 and 645 systems in order to achieve
the quality that we desired I am not surprised.
Given that a lot of us have been with Pentax from the film days and loved their mini weight MEs (I loved them for that) I would rather see a new mini lightweight body. Only for a real glass prism I would accept a little bit of extra weight (and therefore dislike the new bodies). But I would like a resurrection of that old Canon handgrip, that only enlarged the body asymetrical on the handgrip side and aded no weight because it contained no batteries.
 
I think the point is that smaller and lighter is something Pentax
has become known for, but their not the king of that hill anymore!
The Alpha and the k10D are basically the same camera. Alpha is more
than 70g lighter than the weight being discussed with the k10D.
Not too sure about "the same" yet. And if the 70g is the cause of less noise, then that should be fine...

K10D can not be something else than heavier than the K100D and th DL

And Pentax will come up with something which weighs less than anything else. To speak in car terms. A long time ago Volkswagen had the Golf (or rabbit) as their entry level car, it progressed so then came a Volkswagen Polo and now they have an even smaller car, which is probably better than the earlier Golf. And lighter.
--
janneman
http://www.pbase.com/jl2

 
Strictly cost. Developing two bodies would make zero sense for
cameras that share so much. Pentax would be stupid to try to do so
as far as I am concerned.
Even if they could market one on size? We're talking about tens or
even hundreds of thousands of production units here... would two
different mouldings really be such an overhead? But then, maybe
Pentax don't want to market on (small) size, as we both suspect!
:-)
Basic economics.

Lets say you're a manufacturer making camera X. In a hypothetical (i.e. 'perfect') world the fixed unit costs of the process are the raw materials: steel, aluminium, plastic etc for the body, electricity, bare (un-cut/un-shaped) circuit boards, CCDs, CPUs, LCD screens, labour etc -- and for the purposes of the argument, lets also say that in this hypothetical world, they come to $100 for every unit of camera X you produce irrespective of whether that number is one unit, a hundred units, a thousand units, or ten-thousand units.

Now comes the variable costs: the cost to employ the design team, the cost to produce the manufacturing drawings, the cost to tool up your production line, the cost to train your workers, the switching cost (loss of sales, revenue etc) while converting a production line producing camera T to producting camera X, and the cost of marketing the new camera -- and for the purposes of this argument, lets say these costs come to a total of a million dollars regardless of how many units of camera X are produced.

...And since the grand-total cost of production is the fixed plus the variable costs, the costs to produce one camera in this model is $1,000,100 and the costs to produce other numbers of camera are:

$1,010,000 for one hundred cameras ($10,100 per camera);

$1,100,000 for one thousand cameras ($1,100 per camera);

$2,000,000 for ten-thousand cameras ($200 per camera)

Now although the production costs for camera X cannot drop below the fixed cost of $100 for the raw materials for each camera, as can be seen, the more units produced, the more the variable costs of production approach $0 per unit.

-----

So lets extend the model to two new camera designs: camera X which we're already producing (and which replaced camera T in the product lineup), and now we're going to produce a new camera (camera Y) to replace camera U.

So lets say the fixed cost of producing camera Y is $150 per unit due to more material for the body shell, a larger LCD, and a SR unit :)

The variable costs come to $1,500,000 (design of SR unit, new body design, different tooling etc).

cost to produce:

1 unit of Y is $1,500,150
10 unit of Y is $1,501,500 ($150,150 per unit) 100 unit of Y is $1,515,000 ( $15,150 per unit)
1,000 unit of Y is $1,650,000 ( $1,650 per unit) 5,000 unit of Y is $2,250,000 ( $450 per unit)
10,000 unit of Y is $3,000,000 (
$300 per unit)

Now lets add the propositions that 10,000 units of camera X, and 5,000 units of camera Y are being sold, and that X is selling at $850 per unit; Y is selling at $1000 per unit; the market is saturated until a new camera comes along; and that a tooled-up production line has the capability of manufacturing 20,000 units (meaning the line for X is operating at 50% capacity and the line for Y at 25% of capacity). Lets also add that the factory has three production lines with the third line producing the very popular camera S (20,000 units produced, selling at $500 per unit on unit production costs of $100). The manufacturer wants to introduce a new camera line (Z) with higher-end features than Y which could sell two-thousand units at $2000 per unit on unit production costs of $875 (not including switching costs), but the switching costs of stopping S production are much higher than the costs of stopping T and U production, and the cost of expanding or opening a new factory to house additional production lines is ten-million dollars.

So the numbers look like:

X revenue on 10,000 units = _$8,500,000; profit on X = $6,500,000
Y revenue on 5,000 units = _$5,000,000; profit on Y = $2,750,000
S revenue on 20,000 units = $10,000,000; profit on S = $8,000,000


projected revenue on 2000 units of Z = $4,000,000; projected profit on Z = $2,250,000

cost of expanding existing or opening new factory is $10,000

total profit on X, Y, and S = $17,250,000 (no new factory required)

total profit on X, Y, and Z = $11,500,000 (drop S, no new factory required)

total profit on X, Y, S, and Z = $9,500,000 ($19.5 mill minus $10 mill for new factory)

--------------------

... end of part 1. please see part 2 for rest of model/argument :-)
 

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