How do I focus?

[Dr. Gonzo]

I usually don't have to re-focus more than once or twice, if at all. I have very low OOF incidences, even in low lighting. I can almost always see an OOF shot as it is being taken, and re-take.

My theory is this:

You and I have too many OOF shots. We go to take a shot... we only
have a moment before the shot is gone. We half press, the AF locks
and we fire. The shot ends up OOF 40-70% of the time.

Now, there are many others who say there is no AF problem. There is
a respected member here (by myself and most others) who states he
has taken 35,000 shots (or something like that) and that only 1%
(or so) of them are OOF. I DO NOT DOUBT THIS. I completely (almost)
believe it. But what I think is happening is that he just doesnt
fire the shot until the Oly actually achieves focus. I believe the
users with low OOF shots are sitting there for 5 minutes
continually re-AFing until it is ACTUALLY in focus, not when the AF
locks and THEN they take the shot.

If the picture is right there and it will be gone in a second, I'll
fire as soon as the AF locks. Christmas morning, moderate light,
certainly not LOW light and I had to half press 5-6 times before it
would lock. I had zoomed in. I had found all the contrast I could
on the subject I was shooting. It just wouldn't lock IN FOCUS.

?

Beats the hell outta me.

GageFX--- Dr. G.E-10 FAQ: http://www.tokenasians.com/articles/e10faq.html

 

[ShootingStar66329]

Carl,

It is produced by ACDSystems - have a look at http://www.acdsystems.com . They are up to version 4.0 now, but some people consider it a step backwards from version 3.1.

Yes, Jaja is very good.

-SS

Can you advise who produces this software? I loved the images Jaja
shows.

 

[sebMarc]

Michael, please let us know of the result of your investigations!.

I think a lot of newbie (like me) are interested.

Seb.

You and I have too many OOF shots. We go to take a shot... we only
have a moment before the shot is gone. We half press, the AF locks
and we fire. The shot ends up OOF 40-70% of the time.

Now, there are many others who say there is no AF problem. There is
a respected member here (by myself and most others) who states he
has taken 35,000 shots (or something like that) and that only 1%
(or so) of them are OOF. I DO NOT DOUBT THIS. I completely (almost)
believe it. But what I think is happening is that he just doesnt
fire the shot until the Oly actually achieves focus. I believe the
users with low OOF shots are sitting there for 5 minutes
continually re-AFing until it is ACTUALLY in focus, not when the AF
locks and THEN they take the shot.

If the picture is right there and it will be gone in a second, I'll
fire as soon as the AF locks. Christmas morning, moderate light,
certainly not LOW light and I had to half press 5-6 times before it
would lock. I had zoomed in. I had found all the contrast I could
on the subject I was shooting. It just wouldn't lock IN FOCUS.

?

Beats the hell outta me.

GageFX

I have been taking photos of my two grandchildres together, but I'm
having trouble with the auto focus.

What is the correct procedure to focus on two people? If I just
point and shoot, the focus will be at the background between the
two children. I have tried to do an auto focus on one face then
take the photo by pressing the shutter button quickly, but in this
split second, the photo goes out of focus.

I have also tried to do an auto focus on one face then switch to
manual foocus and then take the picture. This does not work with
young children as one of them is usually in a different room by
the time I am ready to take the picture.

I find it very difficult to manually focus the camera as I wear
glasses.

--
Lawrence Keeney

 

[Rembvrijn]

It's hard to retake a shot that is no longer there.

GageFX

My theory is this:

You and I have too many OOF shots. We go to take a shot... we only
have a moment before the shot is gone. We half press, the AF locks
and we fire. The shot ends up OOF 40-70% of the time.

Now, there are many others who say there is no AF problem. There is
a respected member here (by myself and most others) who states he
has taken 35,000 shots (or something like that) and that only 1%
(or so) of them are OOF. I DO NOT DOUBT THIS. I completely (almost)
believe it. But what I think is happening is that he just doesnt
fire the shot until the Oly actually achieves focus. I believe the
users with low OOF shots are sitting there for 5 minutes
continually re-AFing until it is ACTUALLY in focus, not when the AF
locks and THEN they take the shot.

If the picture is right there and it will be gone in a second, I'll
fire as soon as the AF locks. Christmas morning, moderate light,
certainly not LOW light and I had to half press 5-6 times before it
would lock. I had zoomed in. I had found all the contrast I could
on the subject I was shooting. It just wouldn't lock IN FOCUS.

?

Beats the hell outta me.

GageFX

--

• Dr. G.

E-10 FAQ: http://www.tokenasians.com/articles/e10faq.html

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Every camera, and every photographer, misses shots. If I miss shots, the great majority of the time it's because I wasn't quick enough on the draw or the flash wasn't fast enough (the pre-flash lag), not because I got it and it was OOF. You can't rush the E-series, you have to think a second or so ahead. Other cameras might be less prone to OOF shots due to forcing you to wait for focus, but clearly you'll miss shots that way too. My bottom line is I get few missed low light shots due to OOF.

It's hard to retake a shot that is no longer there.

GageFX

--- Dr. G.E-10 FAQ: http://www.tokenasians.com/articles/e10faq.html

 

[bartP]

The simple fact that so many people have problems focussing to get in focus pictures, is enough to blame the camera system, since also the same people have had no problems with other cameras.

The cause of the problems is exactly the same as why ultrafast lenses on regular SLR's focus so easily: the shorter the dept of field, the higher the contrast between in focus and out of focus. And since the Exx series uses an autofocus system that's based on contrast, and the dept of field of it's 2.2 lens is about as "narrow" as F 11 on a regular SLR, there is your problem. There is hardly no difference in contrast between in focus and out of focus, and in low light forget about contrast at all.

Once aware of this problem one will have more in focus shots soon, but you can forget to focus as fast as on a regular SLR with the Exx.

On the other hand I have no answer to the fact that the same people do get sharp pictures with other digital cameras. An attempt would be: pictures on and from a lower resolution tend to seem sharper than pictures from an Exx set on low contrast and low sharpness.

Bart

 

[Jon Ross]

With you on this one. My C2020 was amazing in low light, very very few OOF shots from just using it as a point n shoot to get action as it happens. When it died I got a C2040 - incidence of OOF shots increased markedly. Then along came the E-20, and you just can't point it at a subject, hold down the shutter button and expect it to get it right, so many of my low light shots are now blatantly OOF with this camera. Crazy. Makes me wonder if the active Infrared beam AF is actually working at all....
Jon

You and I have too many OOF shots. We go to take a shot... we only
have a moment before the shot is gone. We half press, the AF locks
and we fire. The shot ends up OOF 40-70% of the time.

Now, there are many others who say there is no AF problem. There is
a respected member here (by myself and most others) who states he
has taken 35,000 shots (or something like that) and that only 1%
(or so) of them are OOF. I DO NOT DOUBT THIS. I completely (almost)
believe it. But what I think is happening is that he just doesnt
fire the shot until the Oly actually achieves focus. I believe the
users with low OOF shots are sitting there for 5 minutes
continually re-AFing until it is ACTUALLY in focus, not when the AF
locks and THEN they take the shot.

If the picture is right there and it will be gone in a second, I'll
fire as soon as the AF locks. Christmas morning, moderate light,
certainly not LOW light and I had to half press 5-6 times before it
would lock. I had zoomed in. I had found all the contrast I could
on the subject I was shooting. It just wouldn't lock IN FOCUS.

?

Beats the hell outta me.

GageFX

I have been taking photos of my two grandchildres together, but I'm
having trouble with the auto focus.

What is the correct procedure to focus on two people? If I just
point and shoot, the focus will be at the background between the
two children. I have tried to do an auto focus on one face then
take the photo by pressing the shutter button quickly, but in this
split second, the photo goes out of focus.

I have also tried to do an auto focus on one face then switch to
manual foocus and then take the picture. This does not work with
young children as one of them is usually in a different room by
the time I am ready to take the picture.

I find it very difficult to manually focus the camera as I wear
glasses.

--
Lawrence Keeney

 

[Lawrence Keeney]

Bart,

Thank you for your input. What is your recommended solution for those of us who have the focus problem?

Maybe it would help me if I better understood exactly how the autofocus works on the E-xx series. You indicate that the Exx series autofocus is based on contrast. How does the infrared beam determine the distance of the subject located in the AF targer mark? Is it by measuring the angle of the reflected beam, or is it a pulsed beam where the return time is measured, or is it by some other means? I don't see where contrast plays a part in either the angle or return time method.

Lawrence

The simple fact that so many people have problems focussing to get
in focus pictures, is enough to blame the camera system, since also
the same people have had no problems with other cameras.
The cause of the problems is exactly the same as why ultrafast
lenses on regular SLR's focus so easily: the shorter the dept of
field, the higher the contrast between in focus and out of focus.
And since the Exx series uses an autofocus system that's based on
contrast, and the dept of field of it's 2.2 lens is about as
"narrow" as F 11 on a regular SLR, there is your problem. There is
hardly no difference in contrast between in focus and out of focus,
and in low light forget about contrast at all.
Once aware of this problem one will have more in focus shots soon,
but you can forget to focus as fast as on a regular SLR with the
Exx.
On the other hand I have no answer to the fact that the same people
do get sharp pictures with other digital cameras. An attempt would
be: pictures on and from a lower resolution tend to seem sharper
than pictures from an Exx set on low contrast and low sharpness.

Bart

 

[bartP]

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse20/page2.asp

This is where Phil tells us that the auto focus is based on contrast detection. The infrared lamp is just there to assist the autofocus system. The infrared is supposed to "light up" the situation for the autofocus contrast detection to see the difference between blur(low contrast) and in focus (high contrast) at the moment you point your lens towards your subject. But again, the difference in contrast between in and out of focus can't be that big which such a wide depth of field as of the E10/20 2.2

With normal SLR's you are always warned not to use a 2x convertor with lenses slower than 5.6. to prevent problems with your autofocus. 2x 5.6 = 11 is apparently the edge of what's possible.

What's helped me to handle the problem, is to point my focus point to several points (with a vertcial line in it when holding the camera in horizontal position) and only fire the shot when I see sharpness. Zooming to tele will help a lot since it will narrow the depth of field.
Again, this handles the problem, but doesn't solve it.
(Bigger chips would solve the problem.)

Bart,

Thank you for your input. What is your recommended solution for
those of us who have the focus problem?

Maybe it would help me if I better understood exactly how the
autofocus works on the E-xx series. You indicate that the Exx
series autofocus is based on contrast. How does the infrared beam
determine the distance of the subject located in the AF targer
mark? Is it by measuring the angle of the reflected beam, or is it
a pulsed beam where the return time is measured, or is it by some
other means? I don't see where contrast plays a part in either the
angle or return time method.

Lawrence

 

[Bram Bos]

In the beginning, i also had about 20% good shots inside in
low-light, the rest where oof. But after playing a lot with the
camera, and learning NOT to trust the focus ready signal, the oof
shots are down to almost zero. I always try to find a reference
point, with a little more light, and hold the focus like
that(half-pressed).

Do you still have the IR-focus assist on or have you disabled it? It's
my experience that focussing is much more reliable when you've
disabled the IR assist.. but it's a lot slower because the camera needs
more time for trial and error when focussing..

something, that doesnt leave room for slightly wrong focus point.
You can anticipate to this by seleting aperture mode, and use an
aperture like 4 or even 5.6. Ofcourse this means indoor a short

Good hint!

thanks,

Bram

----------------------------------------------------------------------Amsterdam, The Netherlands http://www.pbase.com/brambos

 

[Lawrence Keeney]

Bart,

Thanks.

I now understand what autofocus is not, but I don't completely understand how it does work. It has to be all in the software that does an analysis of the pixels that fall within the very small "AF target mark". I still don't see the need for the vertical line in the photo. I assume the vertical line must fall within the "AF target mark".

If anyone knows of a detailed explination of how this software focus detection system works I would like to read it.

It sure seems to me that there must be a better way to achieve autofocus. I would even prefer to have the old split screen and manual focus (I can't seem to use the manual focus on my E-10 either with my glasses). It's hell when you get old like me.

Lawrence

This is where Phil tells us that the auto focus is based on
contrast detection. The infrared lamp is just there to assist the
autofocus system. The infrared is supposed to "light up" the
situation for the autofocus contrast detection to see the
difference between blur(low contrast) and in focus (high contrast)
at the moment you point your lens towards your subject. But again,
the difference in contrast between in and out of focus can't be
that big which such a wide depth of field as of the E10/20 2.2
With normal SLR's you are always warned not to use a 2x convertor
with lenses slower than 5.6. to prevent problems with your
autofocus. 2x 5.6 = 11 is apparently the edge of what's possible.
What's helped me to handle the problem, is to point my focus point
to several points (with a vertcial line in it when holding the
camera in horizontal position) and only fire the shot when I see
sharpness. Zooming to tele will help a lot since it will narrow the
depth of field.
Again, this handles the problem, but doesn't solve it.
(Bigger chips would solve the problem.)

Bart,

Thank you for your input. What is your recommended solution for
those of us who have the focus problem?

Maybe it would help me if I better understood exactly how the
autofocus works on the E-xx series. You indicate that the Exx
series autofocus is based on contrast. How does the infrared beam
determine the distance of the subject located in the AF targer
mark? Is it by measuring the angle of the reflected beam, or is it
a pulsed beam where the return time is measured, or is it by some
other means? I don't see where contrast plays a part in either the
angle or return time method.

Lawrence

 

[SeanU]

I am having some problems with indoor AF as well. I am focusing by "ear", pressing the Shutter Halfway, waiting for the focus motor to stop, and pressing the rest of the way. I have not been checking the AF confirm light. I'm going to be more careful, and see if I get better results.

Also just wondering...

I own a Nikon N60 SLR. It has a vertical autofocus sensor that has problems with when focusing on certain patterns. The trick from the Magic Lantern Book was to tilt the camera so the pattern can be detected by the sensor, half press the shutter, reposition, shoot. Maybe it is a similar issue with the E-XX ?

Sean

 

[bartP]

I still don't see the need for the vertical line in

the photo.

You are right, there appears to be no need for the vertical line. I just tried several horizontal lines and that works too. So we will just have to be patient till we see actual sharpness in the viewfinder by halfpressing.
Think this is just something we have to live with for this price.

Good luck!

Bart

Thanks.

I now understand what autofocus is not, but I don't completely
understand how it does work. It has to be all in the software that
does an analysis of the pixels that fall within the very small "AF
target mark". I still don't see the need for the vertical line in
the photo. I assume the vertical line must fall within the "AF
target mark".

If anyone knows of a detailed explination of how this software
focus detection system works I would like to read it.

It sure seems to me that there must be a better way to achieve
autofocus. I would even prefer to have the old split screen and
manual focus (I can't seem to use the manual focus on my E-10
either with my glasses). It's hell when you get old like me.

Lawrence

This is where Phil tells us that the auto focus is based on
contrast detection. The infrared lamp is just there to assist the
autofocus system. The infrared is supposed to "light up" the
situation for the autofocus contrast detection to see the
difference between blur(low contrast) and in focus (high contrast)
at the moment you point your lens towards your subject. But again,
the difference in contrast between in and out of focus can't be
that big which such a wide depth of field as of the E10/20 2.2
With normal SLR's you are always warned not to use a 2x convertor
with lenses slower than 5.6. to prevent problems with your
autofocus. 2x 5.6 = 11 is apparently the edge of what's possible.
What's helped me to handle the problem, is to point my focus point
to several points (with a vertcial line in it when holding the
camera in horizontal position) and only fire the shot when I see
sharpness. Zooming to tele will help a lot since it will narrow the
depth of field.
Again, this handles the problem, but doesn't solve it.
(Bigger chips would solve the problem.)

Bart,

Thank you for your input. What is your recommended solution for
those of us who have the focus problem?

Maybe it would help me if I better understood exactly how the
autofocus works on the E-xx series. You indicate that the Exx
series autofocus is based on contrast. How does the infrared beam
determine the distance of the subject located in the AF targer
mark? Is it by measuring the angle of the reflected beam, or is it
a pulsed beam where the return time is measured, or is it by some
other means? I don't see where contrast plays a part in either the
angle or return time method.

Lawrence

 

[Ferenc]

Lawrence:

To cope with E10' OOFs, we need to understand how the AF E10 implementation actually works. However, for the sake of simplicity, here is what I have found:

a. Set your shooting mode and parameters (P, A or M)
b. Set your the appropriate metering (Spot, Center, ESP)

c. If you are shooting in LOW light, turn on the LCD viewer (sorry), with the distance metering bar turned on (press the Info button until the distance metering appear).

d. Go back to the optical viewfinder and compose your pic as quickly as possible (need to practice)
(keep a close eye on the boundaries of the composition)

e. Locate a mostly flat area in your composition (preferably in the center of your composed frame).
f. Place the view-finder target on top of the flat area.

g. Make sure the targeted flat area has a surface two times larger than the actual surface covered by the Viewfinder target.

h. If the area is not large enough, zoom on it, until it becomes large enough (make sure this area is not too-bright, because your light metering could be wrongfully measured and your pic will come out underexposed!)

i. Press the shutter button (half way, until you hear the beep), and KEEP it half pressed. If you are shooting in LOW light conditions, quickly look at your LCD display, and check the metered distance with your perceived distance (if it shows 1 meter or infinite, for instance, and you are like 3 away from the object, then half-press the shutter again, until you get a reasonable metering. SORRY. Need to practice, and not recommended for action shooting. In that case, lock your focus manually, if possible).

j. Zoom back (if you Zoomed in at step g.). You will hear the lens' focus engine re-adjusting while you zoom back (only in AF mode, of course!)

k. Re-compose to the original boundaries if the flat area was not in the center of the pic (need to practice)
l. Press the shutter fully and fast!.

Phew. Seems long, but once you practice it, you make a good 1-in-10 OOF ratio, in most shooting conditions, farly fast, except in Low Light conditions.

Best regards,

Ferenc

I have been taking photos of my two grandchildres together, but I'm
having trouble with the auto focus.

What is the correct procedure to focus on two people? If I just
point and shoot, the focus will be at the background between the
two children. I have tried to do an auto focus on one face then
take the photo by pressing the shutter button quickly, but in this
split second, the photo goes out of focus.

I have also tried to do an auto focus on one face then switch to
manual foocus and then take the picture. This does not work with
young children as one of them is usually in a different room by
the time I am ready to take the picture.

I find it very difficult to manually focus the camera as I wear
glasses.

--
Lawrence Keeney

 

[Rembvrijn]

I believe all potential E-xx buyers should be directed to that post. If I had read that before buying, I would be 4 months away from a D30 and another 6 months away from a lens. I wouldn't, however, buy a camera that needed all that to get a properly focused picture.

GageFX

Lawrence:

clipped for sanity's sake.

 

[casey]

It is produced by ACDSystems - have a look at http://www.acdsystems.com .
They are up to version 4.0 now, but some people consider it a step
backwards from version 3.1.

Yes, Jaja is very good.

-SS

Can you advise who produces this software? I loved the images Jaja
shows.

I've had the same problem inside. I've looked close at what the camera wants to do. I've found out that in the P mode the camera wants to shot alot of shots at 1/40 second. I'm think some of the out of focus shots are from the slow shutter speed. I've started using S mode and setting the shutter speed at 100 of 125. I've read that anything below 1/60 of a second is hard to hand hold. Any feedback!

 

[Lawrence Keeney]

Ferenc,

You must be kidding. But, I'm afraid you are not.

The more I try to get indoor photos in low light conditions, the more frustrated I get.

Lawrence

To cope with E10' OOFs, we need to understand how the AF E10
implementation actually works. However, for the sake of simplicity,
here is what I have found:

a. Set your shooting mode and parameters (P, A or M)
b. Set your the appropriate metering (Spot, Center, ESP)
c. If you are shooting in LOW light, turn on the LCD viewer
(sorry), with the distance metering bar turned on (press the Info
button until the distance metering appear).
d. Go back to the optical viewfinder and compose your pic as
quickly as possible (need to practice)
(keep a close eye on the boundaries of the composition)
e. Locate a mostly flat area in your composition (preferably in the
center of your composed frame).
f. Place the view-finder target on top of the flat area.
g. Make sure the targeted flat area has a surface two times larger
than the actual surface covered by the Viewfinder target.
h. If the area is not large enough, zoom on it, until it becomes
large enough (make sure this area is not too-bright, because your
light metering could be wrongfully measured and your pic will come
out underexposed!)
i. Press the shutter button (half way, until you hear the beep),
and KEEP it half pressed. If you are shooting in LOW light
conditions, quickly look at your LCD display, and check the metered
distance with your perceived distance (if it shows 1 meter or
infinite, for instance, and you are like 3 away from the object,
then half-press the shutter again, until you get a reasonable
metering. SORRY. Need to practice, and not recommended for action
shooting. In that case, lock your focus manually, if possible).
j. Zoom back (if you Zoomed in at step g.). You will hear the lens'
focus engine re-adjusting while you zoom back (only in AF mode, of
course!)
k. Re-compose to the original boundaries if the flat area was not
in the center of the pic (need to practice)
l. Press the shutter fully and fast!.

Phew. Seems long, but once you practice it, you make a good 1-in-10
OOF ratio, in most shooting conditions, farly fast, except in Low
Light conditions.

Best regards,

Ferenc

I have been taking photos of my two grandchildres together, but I'm
having trouble with the auto focus.

What is the correct procedure to focus on two people? If I just
point and shoot, the focus will be at the background between the
two children. I have tried to do an auto focus on one face then
take the photo by pressing the shutter button quickly, but in this
split second, the photo goes out of focus.

I have also tried to do an auto focus on one face then switch to
manual foocus and then take the picture. This does not work with
young children as one of them is usually in a different room by
the time I am ready to take the picture.

I find it very difficult to manually focus the camera as I wear
glasses.

--
Lawrence Keeney

 

[Ferenc]

...but we still need a solution to our "freaking" OOF issues.

I agree that this "micro" view of some tactics in operating the E10 may sound, at the beginning, a burden. However, once you make up your mind, and try them several times, you may be on your way to, at least, control the problem... and still stay away from the D30, which, IMHO, should not be our target, until Canon gives us some hints on the CMOS project roadmap (new models, etc.), as well as more spatial resolution (the D30 seems a little outdated for me, with its base 3 MPixels sensor. Just my opinion, again...) Same applies to Oly (OlyDak? Who knows!...)

Best regards, and happy OOF "hunting",

Ferenc

GageFX

Lawrence:

clipped for sanity's sake.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I wouldn't,
however, buy a camera that needed all that to get a properly
focused picture.

You don't.--- Dr. G.E-10 FAQ: http://www.tokenasians.com/articles/e10faq.html

 

[JK Jordan]

I own a Nikon N60 SLR. It has a vertical autofocus sensor that has
problems with when focusing on certain patterns. The trick from the
Magic Lantern Book was to tilt the camera so the pattern can be
detected by the sensor, half press the shutter, reposition, shoot.
Maybe it is a similar issue with the E-XX ?

That is the same advice given in the E-10 manual when the subject does not have vertical lines - rotate 90-deg, half-press to focus, compose, shoot.

JKJ