Canon D30 Snobbery in rec.photo.digital

[Ger Bee]

I will try to concentrate

getting more knowledge and understanding how to take better
pictures with equipment we have available.

The very, very basis of learning and perfecting techniques.

A few things I used to do as a discipline was to pick one lens and look for pictures to suit it (rather than deciding with a zoom). Shoot at one selected aperture, like F22 or 2.8 and choose subjects that best suited those for instance and many more.

In some ways modern cameras are too good and the photographers are reduced to machine drivers – it is easy to lose touch with one’s desires as a photographer.

Learning your equipment inside and out is really the way to freedom, choice and personal satisfaction.

((OT: Today, I, my wife, E10 and D1x went to a sod turning by a local government minister. Later on screen the best shot was selected – my wife on the E10 caught the sod in the air, in focus and exposed correctly – my D1x angle cut the top off the shovel ))

 

[Jukka Jarnberg]

Haha congrats to your wife ....

I'm such an old school - my first lesson from old photojournalist was (in 1970) put 35mm wide-angle to camera set shutter 1/125 and aperture f8 and distance to 3meters and tape settings there - put Tri-X incamera and go photographing

I learned to see world in new way ...

Jukka

getting more knowledge and understanding how to take better
pictures with equipment we have available.

The very, very basis of learning and perfecting techniques.

A few things I used to do as a discipline was to pick one lens and
look for pictures to suit it (rather than deciding with a zoom).
Shoot at one selected aperture, like F22 or 2.8 and choose subjects
that best suited those for instance and many more.

In some ways modern cameras are too good and the photographers are
reduced to machine drivers – it is easy to lose touch with one’s
desires as a photographer.

Learning your equipment inside and out is really the way to
freedom, choice and personal satisfaction.

((OT: Today, I, my wife, E10 and D1x went to a sod turning by a
local government minister. Later on screen the best shot was
selected – my wife on the E10 caught the sod in the air, in focus
and exposed correctly – my D1x angle cut the top off the shovel
))

 

[Pekka Saarinen]

Pekka Saarinen has some comments in the rec.photo.digital newsgroup
about the superiority of the D30 over the E10 or E20. He says

"There is absolutely no point to compare D30 to E20. If some people
think there is, because Olympus marketing calls it an SLR, they are
wrong. E20 is not a real SLR - it's a fixed lens SLR emulation camera.

"Why put your money into a system where lens a body are welded
together? If there is a flaw in either, you have to dump the whole
system. If you don't have enough range of aperture or ISO, you're
stuck. It's often a question of getting a photo or not getting a
photo."

I downloaded and printed out some pix from each from Phil's
reviews. I made sure there was lots of blue sky and detail in each.
I then printed them both at 7x10 size. To me, it's a tossup which
is superior. They aren't identical images, but it is still not
night and day or even close. I did note that the picture size had
the E20 file at 256ppi, whereas the Canon was only 216ppi at the
same size.

I also noticed in the reviews of each that the absolute/extinction
resolution of the Canon was 1150/1350, whereas for the E20 it was
1350/1650 or so. Big difference, and this is taking into account
everything from the CCD to the "welded on lens."

Gary,

Why didn't you reply in news, but instead bring this issue without noticing me for me a chance to reply (I got a tip from a friend that you talk here about my views)? Sigh.

I see from your print/resolution test explanation that you have missed the whole point of what I wrote. I'm not saying: D30 is a sharper camera. It can be very sharp or blurred - lens matters. User skill matters. PS experience matters. I said D30 can be very expensive camera - but you can choose how much - build a system gradually. I also said that D30 is so versatile (dozens of hardware variations) that there's no point to compare it with E-series Olympus's - where is this "D30 reference setup" defined? There is no such thing.

To put is as simply as possible:

A D30, or D1X or 1D etc. let's you shoot usable photos in situations where EXX can't get a shot at all. You can count f stops and shutter speeds: Let's imagine a situation where the only possibility to get a well exposed and sharp photo is 300mm f/2.8 ISO 800 and 1/30 (e.g. a concert shoot) what will E20 shutter speed be? Can it stop enough movement? Are the noise levels acceptable? What if the only possible parameters are f/1.4 ISO 1600 and 1/400 (e.g. a circus act in dark)?

Bottom line: How do you do a print compare when you don't have a photo to print?

Let's get real here. Do you guys think the D30 snobbery is caused
by true performance superiority, or are they just trying to justify
a more expensive purchase? If price were no object, would you
rather have an E20 or a D30, D1X, whateva?

What would you get? Think hard. If price was no object: E20 or D1X system, or D30 system? Maybe a 1-D? E10? Fovia? Still E20?

Pekka

 

[Andrew Grant27981]

Decent consumer grade 35mm zoom lenses start at around $350. Most L zooms cost over $1000. The really long telephot lenses cost over $10,000.

I consider $600 very cheap for a zoom lens as good as the 70-200/F4L. It is as sharp as the 2.8 version which costs around $1200. The IS version is around $1800.

The most expensive lens I have ever purchased is the 24mm TS/E. It wasn't cheap but having Tilt/Shift on a digital body is a lot of fun. It makes shooting small panoramas very easy.

D30 owners do not have to spend $10,000. Some very good Canon
lenses are quite in-expensive such as the 50/1.8 ($90) or the
70-200/F4 L zoom (around $600

I would consider $600 to pretty expensive for a lens! The most
expensive lens I have ever bought (for a 35mm camera) cost £169 GBP

• reasonable for a hobbyist.

I did pay quite a lot more for a Schneider lens for my large
format, but onece you are into the small volume market you have to
accept that the prices rise dramatically.

 

[Andrew Grant27981]

I think Phil might disagree with you both judging by his reviews of the E-20 and D30. He didn't give an AF time for the D30 (it is lens dependent) but he did say that there was no perceptable shutter lag.

THe D30 is clearly not in the same class as either the D1x or 1D though.

Yes, but the D30 isn't that much better than the E-10 when it comes
to performance, the AF is about the same, the shutter lag the same,
what differentiates it is the flush speed and buffer size (not
forgetting it has to deal with smaller files), but even then I
don't think it is the quantum leap that was suggested.

Paul

I'd actually have to agree here - I did try the D30 and I also felt
I was not upgrading enough with it over the E10. If I were to buy
one or the other - without owning either before - then the D30 has
a few edges.

 

[Jukka Jarnberg]

Pekka,

Let me straight out few facts - E-series add-on lens system TCON300 gives user 410mm(35mm equivalent) f2.8!! combine that with TCON14B user gets 600mm f2.8!!!

E20 fastest shutterspeed is 1/18000 in progressive scan mode ...

Yes ISO is limited to 360 - pity

Just couple stray notions to keep facts straight.

Jukka
ps. nice concert pic

What would you get? Think hard. If price was no object: E20 or D1X
system, or D30 system? Maybe a 1-D? E10? Fovia? Still E20?

Pekka

 

[Andrew Grant27981]

Pekka,

Let me straight out few facts - E-series add-on lens system TCON300
gives user 410mm(35mm equivalent) f2.8!! combine that with TCON14B
user gets 600mm f2.8!!!

Absolutely true, though a D30 can go to an effective 1920mm.

E20 fastest shutterspeed is 1/18000 in progressive scan mode ...

At the cost of image quality. The images I saw were unusable.

Yes ISO is limited to 360 - pity

Well yes and no. Personally I think 160 is pushing it noise wise. On the D30 you can go to about 800 ISO for the same noise level.

Just couple stray notions to keep facts straight.

But beside the point being made which was that the D30 give you more options.

 

[Jukka Jarnberg]

Just looked New York Camera price list of few Canon lenses - yes, they are very good lenses (I have been and still am Canon user) ...
300mm F2.8 about 5000Euro ~ same amount dollars I guess
400mm F2.8 about 9200Euro
600mm F4 about 10500Euro

Just costs of options ....

 

[Frank B]

Ger Bee,

Sorry, you are correct that the D1x was included in the post.

Frank B

Ger Bee,

Oh come on! The question posed is with respect to the D30 not the
D1x. The D30 is no Dix.

Frank B

Yes - for the purpose of comparing to and E10 it certainly is.
Everyting I can say about the D30 over the E10 I can say (even
more) about the D1x.

And read the last line of the thread I replied to - it was NOT
brought up my me - look again.

 

[Jerry Russell]

Would the E10/20 be my first choice if money were no object??

Absolutely not! I love my E10 and it's the best I can afford but if I had a lot more disposable income (what is that anyway???), I'd have bought into a Canon or Nikon interchangable lens cameras in a heartbeat.

Because I need one? No. Because I want one?? YES!!!

But I think the "money no object" thing it pointless. For almost all of us money is very much an issue. Buy the best you can afford.

Pekka Saarinen has some comments in the rec.photo.digital newsgroup
about the superiority of the D30 over the E10 or E20. He says

"There is absolutely no point to compare D30 to E20. If some people
think there is, because Olympus marketing calls it an SLR, they are
wrong. E20 is not a real SLR - it's a fixed lens SLR emulation camera.

"Why put your money into a system where lens a body are welded
together? If there is a flaw in either, you have to dump the whole
system. If you don't have enough range of aperture or ISO, you're
stuck. It's often a question of getting a photo or not getting a
photo."

I downloaded and printed out some pix from each from Phil's
reviews. I made sure there was lots of blue sky and detail in each.
I then printed them both at 7x10 size. To me, it's a tossup which
is superior. They aren't identical images, but it is still not
night and day or even close. I did note that the picture size had
the E20 file at 256ppi, whereas the Canon was only 216ppi at the
same size.

I also noticed in the reviews of each that the absolute/extinction
resolution of the Canon was 1150/1350, whereas for the E20 it was
1350/1650 or so. Big difference, and this is taking into account
everything from the CCD to the "welded on lens."

Let's get real here. Do you guys think the D30 snobbery is caused
by true performance superiority, or are they just trying to justify
a more expensive purchase? If price were no object, would you
rather have an E20 or a D30, D1X, whateva?

Gary Eickmeier

 

[William C]

Jukka Jarberg

I really do not understand people, Pekka is replying to
Gray Eickmeier post and you feel you have to jump in and
take aim at him.

Were you not the one who does not care in the first place.
His opinion does not change your world view.

My two cents

Bill

 

[Paul Taylor]

Amen to that!

I'd love a D-30 or a D1 or....

But my pockets will never be deep enough, unless that lottery number comes up

The E-10 is a fine compromise design, making digi-SLR photography a reality for many more people. Comparisons of the 2 cameras are really moot - lets take pictures!

regards,
Paul

Absolutely not! I love my E10 and it's the best I can afford but
if I had a lot more disposable income (what is that anyway???), I'd
have bought into a Canon or Nikon interchangable lens cameras in a
heartbeat.

Because I need one? No. Because I want one?? YES!!!

But I think the "money no object" thing it pointless. For almost
all of us money is very much an issue. Buy the best you can afford.

Pekka Saarinen has some comments in the rec.photo.digital newsgroup
about the superiority of the D30 over the E10 or E20. He says

"There is absolutely no point to compare D30 to E20. If some people
think there is, because Olympus marketing calls it an SLR, they are
wrong. E20 is not a real SLR - it's a fixed lens SLR emulation camera.

"Why put your money into a system where lens a body are welded
together? If there is a flaw in either, you have to dump the whole
system. If you don't have enough range of aperture or ISO, you're
stuck. It's often a question of getting a photo or not getting a
photo."

I downloaded and printed out some pix from each from Phil's
reviews. I made sure there was lots of blue sky and detail in each.
I then printed them both at 7x10 size. To me, it's a tossup which
is superior. They aren't identical images, but it is still not
night and day or even close. I did note that the picture size had
the E20 file at 256ppi, whereas the Canon was only 216ppi at the
same size.

I also noticed in the reviews of each that the absolute/extinction
resolution of the Canon was 1150/1350, whereas for the E20 it was
1350/1650 or so. Big difference, and this is taking into account
everything from the CCD to the "welded on lens."

Let's get real here. Do you guys think the D30 snobbery is caused
by true performance superiority, or are they just trying to justify
a more expensive purchase? If price were no object, would you
rather have an E20 or a D30, D1X, whateva?

Gary Eickmeier

 

[stripes]

But the expense is huge - even with the D30 coming down in price, excellent lenses cost significantly more than the camera. And I don't completely buy Pekka's argument that the lenses are used forever - I see a lot of Canon users rushing out to buy the IS lenses, now that they're available. New technology sells - at a hefty price.

While a lot of the high quality lenses do cost huge, there are quite a few that cost less then the D30.

The 50mm f/1.4 is "only" $350 or so. The 100mm f/2.8 USM macro (very sharp, very flat plane, and focuses at 1:1) is "only" $600, the non-USM is less. The 100-400L is under $2k (so less then the camera, but not by a lot). The Sigma 20mm EX DG is around $350, and very sharp. Oh, and the new 70-200mm f/2.8 IS is just under $2k at B&H. Even the

It is "only" the very fast very wide lenses that cost more then the camera, like the 300mm f/2.8, 400mm f/2.8, and (I think) 400mm f/4 (it may be under $2k, or maybe just the 300mm f/4). The 600mm and 1200mm are clearly more then the camera...

Are the lenses forever? I don't know. They can clearly be used on future EOS cameras, and they will remain good lenses. Better ones may come out, but "better" in the lens world is not the same as "better" in the digital world. The next 400mm lens will not weigh half as much, or be twice as fast. The used lens will retain a lot of it's resale value, go look at http://www.keh.com for prices on the old 70-200mm f/2.8 (or ebay).

On the other side of that the 20mm Sigma I own doesn't have good edge quality, and be too wide for my tastes on a camera with a 1.0 focal length modifier, so with a future camera at least one of my lenses may no longer be useful to me.

I don't own anything that costs more then the 100mm f/2.8 macro, but I do want to

Anyway, I don't know if I changed anyone mind, my intent was really just to point out that there are a lot of very fine lenses that cost less then the camera.

 

[Ger Bee]

Because I need one? No. Because I want one?? YES!!!

My phrase is if money is the only obstacle then there is no obstacle. I do think I did use the word object in one of my replies.

Money is obviously a consideration, but system support, usability and availability are probably more important.

The first thing we need is a desire, the next thing we need is an object that satisfies ALL those desires, if we find something that does then we will find a way to finance it – within reason money is the easiest product to procure, and it’s never been cheaper.

But, but if we even THINK it is too dear – we lose.

(I would not buy the original D1 – too dear, too buggy, Nikon went like the KGB and the CIA – even closing down support forums – I knew the camera was faulty – history tells its own story. But by the time the D1x was released, both fixed and improved – plus considering the state of the camera market and upcoming releases there was nothing else but for me to commit resources to its procurement – now a strange thing happens – just as it did with the E10 purchase (actually I think today is my E10’s birthday!!!) and similarly with the D1x’s arrival – you know the money just did not matter – I had in my hands with the E10 the best available instrument and a significant improvement over what I had been using – but I had wanted the E10 from the first pre-launch ads – I did not care how much it cost – I wanted one!!!)

 

[Matti J.]

Pekka Saarinen has some comments in the rec.photo.digital newsgroup
about the superiority of the D30 over the E10 or E20. He says

"There is absolutely no point to compare D30 to E20. If some people
think there is, because Olympus marketing calls it an SLR, they are
wrong. E20 is not a real SLR - it's a fixed lens SLR emulation camera.

Yes, E-10/20 is not real SLR by means of interchageability. And that is just a plain fact.

Smaller difference is the image splitting prism for imager & viewfinder on E-10/20 which is never used in "real" SLRs/DSRLs. The prism is a compromise comparing to reflex mirror in SRLs because of the loss of light reaching the CCD.

"Why put your money into a system where lens a body are welded
together? If there is a flaw in either, you have to dump the whole
system. If you don't have enough range of aperture or ISO, you're
stuck. It's often a question of getting a photo or not getting a
photo."

This is somewhat foolish, I've to admit. Different cameras for different needs & folks. There is nothing wrong to have choises among DCs as well as film cameras.

.....
Let's get real here. Do you guys think the D30 snobbery is caused
by true performance superiority, or are they just trying to justify
a more expensive purchase?

It REALLY is not so sensible to compare E-10/E-20 to D30+lenses because they really are in a different price range.

BUT if you eventually happen to compare them, the superiority of the D30 doesn't come out of the blue. You should know that by now. Just look at their features on various reviews.

D30s (and other real DSRLs) with interchangeable lenses are far superior image wise. Yet being the cream among the add-ons the Oly E-10/20 lenses cannot compare to D30 with its selection of EF lenses. With D30+suitable lens you can have the ultimate shallow or deep depth if you will. You can have the widest lenses available and there E-10/20 doesn't come even close.

E-10/20 imagers cannot compare to D30 imager because of the huge difference in physical size. The Mpixel count doesn't count: The D30 images out of the camera have less noise and colors praised by professionals.

The selection of IS lenses is superior even comparing to Nikon SRLs. On the other hand, Oly E-10/20 has no IS.

Compare image buffers, start up times, preview times, flush times (of course, the D30 has only 3 Mpixels to flush, but they all are hi-quality pixels ;-), battery life etc.

On many accounts those two cameras are somewhat equal: ergonomics, handling and construction quality, manual settings etc.

Here E-10/20 wins: dust free CCD imager. This might be atleast nuisanse on D30 in some circumstances. And of cource the 5 Mpixel E-20 images on paper can be enlargened more.

...
Gary Eickmeier

The D30 is much more versatile than any other non-DSRL. The reasons are laid out everywhere. But the D30 doesn't come cheap. And there might be more to learn. That's why there are lot of photo galleries full of mediocre or lesser D30 photos taken by novices struckling with the steep learning curve. But the best D30 photo galleries outperform any E-10/20 gallery by photo quality. BUT the artistic quality is not that much depending on the camera used. And that is a blessing!

Her is my favourite D30 sites with pics that would be hard or impossible to take with E-10/E20+fixed lens combination. These photographers are masters of the digital dark room, that's for sure, but they need the diamond that come out of the D30 and then cut it just right.

Impressive DOF control + live portrait examples:
http://rijnders4.myweb.nl/

Wide + superwide examples with artistic touch:
http://homepage.mac.com/dalums/PhotoAlbum.html

Carneval of colour & expression:
http://photography-on-the.net/D30/thumbs.php

Cheers,
Matti J.
(Canon "oldtimer" AE-1 film body + Canon S10 + Sony Mavica FD)

 

[Matti J.]

Just looked New York Camera price list of few Canon lenses - yes,
they are very good lenses (I have been and still am Canon user) ...
300mm F2.8 about 5000Euro ~ same amount dollars I guess
400mm F2.8 about 9200Euro
600mm F4 about 10500Euro

Just costs of options ....

The ultimate quality doesn't come cheap. For most of the PJs the cost is not an issue and for few of the amateurs there is no choice but cut back other costs of living. For me the saving for the D30 body and quality L-lenses means this:

1. Bought Opel Vectra instead of Mercedes 180-series
2. Bought BWM R 1150 R MC instead of Harley Davidson Night Train MC.

Its about choises we make when investing to our hobbies. Some prefer cheaper and simple, some dig deeper (in their pockets too;-)

Old coins are expensive too. Older coins are even more expensive!

I am still saving, but the waiting will be soon over...

Cheers,
Matti J.

 

[Jukka Jarnberg]

Matti,

Hmmm yes of course - I know what real passion can cost - hobby is to raise and breed bengal cats. Very special cat breed - breeding studs and females can cost several thousand dollars - it is as Ger Bee put it, money is not object if you want the best you will get it

Take care,
Jukka

ps. also trying to catch that feline beauty on CCD and reproduce it.

 

[Jim K53618]

And what proof or evidence would satisfy you? Since you have no
printer how could you tell? You would only have other peoples word
to take. Or judge by your computers monitor.

Jim, what did I say that made you think I have an E10, or that I
don't have a printer?

Gary Eickmeier

"I just happen to love the design of the E10/20, and prefer it and its fixed lens over all others."

"So if I love the design of the E20 and can live with the write speed and don't need some weird lens or other that is available to Canon users.."

"My current opinion is that there may be more measurable or visible at 100% on the monitor noise in the E, but not in the prints that you make on your inkjet. But I have no Epson printer, either, so I could be wrong on that."

Sorry if I misunderstood, but you sounded like you own a E10 since you "love" the design" so much, and I didn't think you have a printer because you said you don't have a "Epson printer".

If you do have a printer, then why not just print out samples for yourself and the hell what anybody else thinks?

Regards,
Jim K

 

[greg mclemore]

Matti, I don,t usually get involved in these type of senseless disscusions, but your remark about the d-30 images being far superior to that from the e-10 is so incorrect that I just had to respond.First the term SLR means single lense reflex, in my 30 years of photography the importance of using a slr has had more to do with accurately seeing what I was about to shoot.Lastly the images from the e-10 are very good. Their are cameras that have smoother images but to say that the d-30 has far superior images is just untrue.both cameras in a gifted photographers hands will yield excellent results, now that is the truth.

Pekka Saarinen has some comments in the rec.photo.digital newsgroup
about the superiority of the D30 over the E10 or E20. He says

"There is absolutely no point to compare D30 to E20. If some people
think there is, because Olympus marketing calls it an SLR, they are
wrong. E20 is not a real SLR - it's a fixed lens SLR emulation camera.

Yes, E-10/20 is not real SLR by means of interchageability. And
that is just a plain fact.

Smaller difference is the image splitting prism for imager &
viewfinder on E-10/20 which is never used in "real" SLRs/DSRLs. The
prism is a compromise comparing to reflex mirror in SRLs because of
the loss of light reaching the CCD.

"Why put your money into a system where lens a body are welded
together? If there is a flaw in either, you have to dump the whole
system. If you don't have enough range of aperture or ISO, you're
stuck. It's often a question of getting a photo or not getting a
photo."

This is somewhat foolish, I've to admit. Different cameras for
different needs & folks. There is nothing wrong to have choises
among DCs as well as film cameras.

.....
Let's get real here. Do you guys think the D30 snobbery is caused
by true performance superiority, or are they just trying to justify
a more expensive purchase?

It REALLY is not so sensible to compare E-10/E-20 to D30+lenses
because they really are in a different price range.

BUT if you eventually happen to compare them, the superiority of
the D30 doesn't come out of the blue. You should know that by now.
Just look at their features on various reviews.

D30s (and other real DSRLs) with interchangeable lenses are far
superior image wise. Yet being the cream among the add-ons the Oly
E-10/20 lenses cannot compare to D30 with its selection of EF
lenses. With D30+suitable lens you can have the ultimate shallow or
deep depth if you will. You can have the widest lenses available
and there E-10/20 doesn't come even close.

E-10/20 imagers cannot compare to D30 imager because of the huge
difference in physical size. The Mpixel count doesn't count: The
D30 images out of the camera have less noise and colors praised by
professionals.

The selection of IS lenses is superior even comparing to Nikon
SRLs. On the other hand, Oly E-10/20 has no IS.

Compare image buffers, start up times, preview times, flush times
(of course, the D30 has only 3 Mpixels to flush, but they all are
hi-quality pixels ;-), battery life etc.

On many accounts those two cameras are somewhat equal: ergonomics,
handling and construction quality, manual settings etc.

Here E-10/20 wins: dust free CCD imager. This might be atleast
nuisanse on D30 in some circumstances. And of cource the 5 Mpixel
E-20 images on paper can be enlargened more.

...
Gary Eickmeier

The D30 is much more versatile than any other non-DSRL. The reasons
are laid out everywhere. But the D30 doesn't come cheap. And there
might be more to learn. That's why there are lot of photo galleries
full of mediocre or lesser D30 photos taken by novices struckling
with the steep learning curve. But the best D30 photo galleries
outperform any E-10/20 gallery by photo quality. BUT the artistic
quality is not that much depending on the camera used. And that is
a blessing!

Her is my favourite D30 sites with pics that would be hard or
impossible to take with E-10/E20+fixed lens combination. These
photographers are masters of the digital dark room, that's for
sure, but they need the diamond that come out of the D30 and then
cut it just right.

Impressive DOF control + live portrait examples:
http://rijnders4.myweb.nl/

Wide + superwide examples with artistic touch:
http://homepage.mac.com/dalums/PhotoAlbum.html

Carneval of colour & expression:
http://photography-on-the.net/D30/thumbs.php

Cheers,
Matti J.
(Canon "oldtimer" AE-1 film body + Canon S10 + Sony Mavica FD)

 

[Gary Eickmeier]

Sorry if I misunderstood, but you sounded like you own a E10 since
you "love" the design" so much, and I didn't think you have a
printer because you said you don't have a "Epson printer".

I am still saving for my first digital. It has got to be the right one, if I have to pay these outrageous prices for it.

If you do have a printer, then why not just print out samples for
yourself and the hell what anybody else thinks?

I had to go back and read my original post that started this thread. You may not have seen it. I said

"I downloaded and printed out some pix from each from Phil's reviews. I made sure there was lots of blue sky and detail in each. I then printed them both at 7x10 size. To me, it's a tossup which is superior. They aren't identical images, but it is still not night and day or even close. I did note that the picture size had the E20 file at 256ppi, whereas the Canon was only 216ppi at the same size."

My printer is the original Photosmart, which is superb but doesn't have the resolution of the newest Epsons. All of my digital work is with scanned-in photos from my film cameras.

Gary Eickmeier