Moral

[Qship]

O, the 'Americans' with their double standards, trying to shove their morals through the throat of the rest of the world...
--
Thanks,
Rick Stolk
http://www.rickstolk.com

Caveat Mutator

 

[Lacol]

O, the 'Americans' with their double standards, trying to shove
their morals through the throat of the rest of the world...
--
Thanks,
Rick Stolk
http://www.rickstolk.com

Caveat Mutator

So... According to you, the greenbaby thread has nothing to do with the present discussion;

But the american's attitude towards the rest of the world has.

I'm trying very hard to understand you thought process here. And failing.

Maybe there is nothing to understand.

 

[John_Reed]

He got banned, he thinks, for offering a "free" way to use Adobe Creative Suite. Shareware is a different thing, not the same as freeloading from commercial software for which others have to pay.
--
Not one to duck an issue, but occasionally may issue a duck or two?



EffZeeOneVeeTwo, EffZeeThirty

 

[Qship]

I'm trying very hard to understand you thought process here. And
failing.

Maybe there is nothing to understand.

You're right: I'm dumb and Americans are smart
--
Thanks,
Rick Stolk
http://www.rickstolk.com

Caveat Mutator

 

[linuxworks]

technically, though, what miho posted was NOT a crack or a serial number.

he simply posted a creative work-around to getting a free demo to run free for longer than the manuf originally wanted.

its a gray area, I think. no one forced the company to put out a free demo. no one forced vmware to put out a free demo, either. he combined them in an interesting way.

I see both sides so I try not to judge too harshly when someone listens to their inner person and follows their own path. I respect an INDEPENDANT THINKER. not every rule should be followed (slavery in the south, anyone?). its up to each person to decide if a 'rule' is really just or not.

I have stated a few instances of when it made sense (to me) to work around some 'rules'. would I break them every chance I get? no. will I follow them blindly every chance I get? no. [prisoner]I am not a number; I am a free man![ prisoner]

let me give you ANOTHER example of when it might make sense to 'break the rules'. I recently bought a screen calibrator 'puck' (almost $250 for that, too). I was at a store looking at one and asked if I could return it if it didn't work out for me. being a mostly hardware based product, I didn't think it would be a big deal to return it - what value is the software 'driver' if the puck isn't around anymore? I had heard so many bad things about this one brand - but I did want to give it a chance (some people found it ok, but not all). so I asked the store if it was returnable and they said 'well its CONSIDERED a software product, so no, you can't return it'. how absurd! (a video card is a hardware device but they usually come with a driver cd. is THAT a software product, too?) so do I shell out over $200 on the chance that it might work for me? is that fair? I COULD have searched for a crack and just bought the item, not opened its cd (and certainly not activated it), then tried the device and if it didn't work, maybe I could take it back and show that the main cd wasn't opened. in this case, I had every full intention of buying the product - but only IF it worked well for me. I think that's fair - yet I'd have to sidestep the 'rules' just to be able to have a fair chance to try before I buy.

ok, one MORE example (I have a dozen of 'em..). buy a laptop today and often windows will come pre-installed on a partition and maybe even a backup 'restore' partition - but often there is NO CDROM (and you simply cannot get one from your vendor). what if you screwed up your drive or formatted over it? you are SOL, that's what. suppose you don't care for all the bundled software and just want a clean vanilla windows install? can't do that either. want to buy the pc unbundled? usually can't do that either.

it hasn't been a fair 'fight' for years. I don't judge or blame people for taking things into their own hands.

He got banned, he thinks, for offering a "free" way to use Adobe
Creative Suite. Shareware is a different thing, not the same as
freeloading from commercial software for which others have to pay.
--
Not one to duck an issue, but occasionally may issue a duck or two?



EffZeeOneVeeTwo, EffZeeThirty

--
bryan ( http://www.grateful.net ) pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ,
(sample fz30 raw files: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

 

[linuxworks]

O, the 'Americans' with their double standards, trying to shove
their morals through the throat of the rest of the world...

but that 'SUV' comment? aren't you judging based on YOUR view of how the world should work?

I don't like SUVs and don't condone them. I think 90% of the people who have them don't really need them. but I object to people saying 'you have no right to HAVE one'. I choose not to buy one - but I won't stop you from buying one. its a little concept called FREEDOM.

(oh, and its not 'americans' forcing their view on the ROW; its mostly the politicians. I really hope you can see the diff. the ordinary american man-on-the-street isn't that much diff from the average dutch-guy-on-the-street. western peoples are more similar than dissimilar, even though its in vogue to blame the worlds' problems on america these days.)

--
bryan ( http://www.grateful.net ) pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ,
(sample fz30 raw files: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

 

[jdonalds2001]

I try to respect the persons and companies that produced products so I purchase everything. Some 10 years ago I purged my home of anything I had not obtained legally. I won't give copies of software, music, or videos to anyone who does not live in my house.

On the other hand if I have paid for a music track I do feel comfortable making copies to use in my mp3 player, or to keep a CD copy in each car.
If I give away a CD or DVD I will throw away or destroy any copies I have.

I have to admit that I purchased 4 DVDs in Moscow at the flea market though. Those are illegal copies and as far as I know they are the only things in my home that bypassed legal means.

I own PE3 because I just can't bring my self to pay for a full version of PhotoShop. Perhaps when I discover features that I'd like to have which are not available in PE3 I'll step up to PhotoShop but for now I'm happy with PE3.

When I do buy I have no quams about searching the internet for the best price though. I'll even take a risk from time to time and buy from a vendor that may not have the best rating just so I can squeeze out the best price. So far I haven't been burned.
--
Following Jesus best I can

 

[Copusmaximus]

It went from "Do you all pay for the software you use?" to personel attacks.... still makes it an interesting read..
--

If I have uploaded and image don't hesitate to advise/criticise I'm here to learn..

Kind Rgds

Heath

FZ30 is so addictive.
I'm heading for an early divorce.
The wife: 'either it goes or I do!' ----------- The hubby:'TAXI'!!
(The Amateur amateur in training)
FZ30 100%-- S9000 0% both were possible buys..
S7000(in sons hands now)
Tcon17
WLFX9(for sale)
Raynox DCR 150 & DCR 250
Nikon SB24+omnibounce
Tripod
CamCane

 

[korsair]

If many obtained an illegal crack/serial number and did not pay the registration fee the shareware business will have to spread his cost to the users that do pay. It's the same piracy whether it is Micro$oft or Joe Software.

BTW -This is the second post your friend made along these lines. The first was removed and resulted in a ban. I note there were others in this thread
that from the conversation who may have enjoyed their free software.

--
Korsair - DCO
( Digital Camera Operator)

 

[linuxworks]

I try to respect the persons and companies that produced products
so I purchase everything. Some 10 years ago I purged my home of
anything I had not obtained legally. I won't give copies of
software, music, or videos to anyone who does not live in my house.

where did THAT rule come from? seems quite arbitrary. are ALL your licensed goods truly available at a 'site' license? or just for the original purchaser (you)? here, you have made a judgement call that anyone inside your closed radius can benefit from software that YOU paid for. how is that morally different from extending the circle a notch? and another notch?

On the other hand if I have paid for a music track I do feel
comfortable making copies to use in my mp3 player, or to keep a CD
copy in each car.

and what if this changes and the record companies convince congress that only 1 copy of the 'content' (music, etc) should exist per format? will you simply say 'ok' and then purge all mp3 copies and re-buy them? don't say this won't happen - sony already tried it! others have also. they DO want to regulate not only the content but the format you play it in. later on, even the TIMESLOT you listen in. later the LOCATION you are in where you listen. not going to happen? time will tell..

I have to admit that I purchased 4 DVDs in Moscow at the flea
market though. Those are illegal copies and as far as I know they
are the only things in my home that bypassed legal means.

so you do admit you bend the rules when YOU see fit. that's fine - each person has to judge on a case by case basis. but if you purged your house, why are those still there?

When I do buy I have no quams about searching the internet for the
best price though. I'll even take a risk from time to time and buy
from a vendor that may not have the best rating just so I can
squeeze out the best price. So far I haven't been burned.

that has nothing to do with paying or not paying. there is (so far) nothing immoral or illegal about comparison price shopping (although, some stores will get ANNOYED if they see you writing down prices - comparison shopping. yes, its happened. shocking, huh?)

--
bryan ( http://www.grateful.net ) pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ,
(sample fz30 raw files: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

 

[linuxworks]

If many obtained an illegal crack/serial number and did not pay the
registration fee the shareware business will have to spread his
cost to the users that do pay. It's the same piracy whether it is
Micro$oft or Joe Software.

you couldn't be more wrong.

take my sandwitch, I have no sandwitch. take my software, I still can sell it. you have cost me nothing.

its a fallacy. one that the software and content companies LOVE to hoist on us.

but its incorrect logic, regardless. 'stealing' software, over the net, does NOT reduce inventory or add actual cost. there is no way to measure the 'loss' and so there is NO way to 'cover the loss' by spreading it across other customers.

pure illogical fallacy. just like how the record companies do 'creative accounting' to say that they LOST money when mp3 came out, when in fact, there are numbers that show just the opposite!

finally, you ignore the case where people try before they buy and then are convinced so much, they DO buy. my most recent software purchase (neatimage) was like that. they were good enough to allow a full function demo and I tried it for a month or more before buying. but suppose they didn't have a free demo (a lot of companies don't). and suppose I ran a cracked version in order to evaluate it pre-purchase. in this case, the cracked version could actually result IN A SALE. interesting how this side of the story is often left out - but its only the 'you theif!' argument that is brought up again and again.

I thought neatimage was worth it, it was a fair price (very important criteria for me) and the support from the author was worth paying for. I bought a copy later on - but if the author didn't have a free demo and I used a cracked one to try-before-buy, I still would have bought it and they would have made money indirectly via the crack.

--
bryan ( http://www.grateful.net ) pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ,
(sample fz30 raw files: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

 

[korsair]

You're right: I'm dumb and Americans are smart

I have to somewhat agree with you as you did start this thread.
Most likely not the smartest thing you have ever done............: )

--
Korsair - DCO
( Digital Camera Operator)

 

[korsair]

When you download a trial copy of software with the intent of cracking it and using it for a long period or forever it is theft.
.

--
Korsair - DCO
( Digital Camera Operator)

 

[Neil McKenzie]

So software is free? Do software developers works for free? Does the landlord let you have a facility for free? Do the media let you advertise for free? Do software distributors and retailers sell your product for free? Bryan, do you work for free?

I have enjoyed reading your arguements and many make sense. But when you press that "Accept" button you have entered into a contract. If you can't live by the terms don't press "Accept". It is that simple.
--
Neil

 

[Ceci Land]

I'm stuck with an SUV...yeah...stuck. I have to have a vehicle our RV/home can tow. I call VW because their diesel jetta in manual transmission would have been a great tow vehicle. Nope...they wouldn't honor the warranty if I did so...nor would any other manufacturer that made a manual transmission. (Now, don't get off on how wasteful an RV is...we aren't moving every two weeks...more like 3 times per year...plus, if you've seen how electrical and water efficient you are in one, you'd be amazed. So, let's just say the info the public has is greatly exaggerated compared to RVers like us)

I'd had a saturn in the past and gotten scre*ed by propietary parts requiring service at only a dealership...even simple stuff like an oil drain plug. (a jiffy lube stripped ours because he didin't have the propietary part to remove the proprietary plug...so we got stuck for a while being unable to change our oil while saturn decided whether they would replace the oil pan under warranty...you got it...no notice in our manual or sales literature that you now own a vehicle that can be damaged if saturn isn't the one performing every tiny little repair.) Needless to say, I didn't want a new saturn...that left me with ONE choice...a jeep. So...there ya go...I drive one of the dreaded SUVs.

Ceci
My photo gallery:
http://ceciland.smugmug.com/Photography

 

[linuxworks]

When you download a trial copy of software with the intent of
cracking it and using it for a long period or forever it is theft.

and what about the company that makes claims about its software, only to find that they lied or were misleading - yet you have no return privs?

some people DO fight fire with fire. and I don't judge them for that.

btw, do you obediantly watch every tv commercial? do you block ads on the net? by some peoples' logic, you are STEALING internet 'services' if you don't watch the ads, etc.

its NOT so simple, people! morality isn't black and white - it just isn't. EVERYTHING in life is a judgement call.

supposed its 3am, not a car on the road, and there's a red light ahead. you are rushing to the hospital. do you stop at the red light or go thru (again, no cars in sight).

we all make judgement calls. we are HUMANS not robots.

--
bryan ( http://www.grateful.net ) pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ,
(sample fz30 raw files: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

 

[Ceci Land]

You're on a roll Bryan.

....just a thumbs up. You're saying it better than I do. I do want to reiterate to people that many folks see corporations as theives, therefore they feel no remose stealing from another theif. I mean...Larry Ellison just got a personal fine of 100 million ! Cripes...the money at the top of today's companies came from somewhere ya know. It's also seldom reinvested in their companies in a sustainable manner and used toward training and making the product better. That's an example of the hewlett packard of old.

Ceci
--
My photo gallery:
http://ceciland.smugmug.com/Photography

 

[darraghuk]

I think that what linuxwork says about cracked or illegal copies leading to eventual sales is an overlooked aspect of the debate. Software companies are well aware that many people feel conflicted and guilty about using non-sanctioned copies and talk internally about how to promote the "conversion rate" to full retail. Unfortunately the companies don't feel that reducing the retail price is the best encouragement :-( As a lot of "software evaluators" are students we believe that introducing educational discounts with extremely low barriers to entry is one of the best ways to get these people to go legit.

I disagree with linuxworks though about the cost of piracy. Although it's true I haven't physically lost anything if you copy my software, I have lost the prospect of an actual sale. Also though the production cost to a company of a copy of our program may be pennies, that only applies to the SECOND CD produced. The FIRST copy may well have cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to create.

Just my 0.0115p worth,

Darragh
FZ30 newbie

 

[Qship]

I think the John Reeds (and L's alike)of this world are a bit frustrated that they seem to be the only ones on this planet to be paying $400+ for a piece of software the rest of the world gets for free...
Keep up the good work!
--
Thanks,
Rick Stolk
http://www.rickstolk.com

Caveat Mutator

 

[linuxworks]

I disagree with linuxworks though about the cost of piracy.
Although it's true I haven't physically lost anything if you copy
my software, I have lost the prospect of an actual sale.

maybe, maybe not. there are the set of people who would NEVER buy - for those, you have to remove their numbers from your equation. there are those that will ALWAYS buy. those also don't affect your piracy-lost-dollars. the middle ground is where the argument really lies.

but the argument of '1000 downloads should result in 1000 sales' is just fallacious.

Also
though the production cost to a company of a copy of our program
may be pennies, that only applies to the SECOND CD produced. The
FIRST copy may well have cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to
create.

business as usual. if you account that way, sure, the first of ANYTHING is the sum total of all devel costs. ok, so the pirate could be stealing the whole project funding if its the first cd, but what if its the last cd, just before the product is end-of-lifed?

goose and gander, I say. almost impossible to measure - so the vendors project their perceived losses. most thinking people take this with a grain of salt, though.

--
bryan ( http://www.grateful.net ) pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works ,
(sample fz30 raw files: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~