Worth staying with Minolta ?

[larsbc]

aarif wrote:
[snip]

And if you are worried about your investment with KM Sony is
going to use the Minolta mount too and they have announced that
they will release to DSLR’s in 2006.

I wouldn't put all my confidence in Sony just because of their name.

They completely pulled out of the PDA market, having decided they couldn't make enough money from it. They could still do the same with DSLRs. It's not like they're investing in building lenses or anything.

larsbc

 

[ctransj]

thanks.

so is it because the 3600HS is old, cheap or because the limitations that KM had to design that way.

 

[andrewD2]

Yes I have the 7D and I was using bounce flash on all of them.

If you do some of the things I have mentioned, like use ISO 400 with the ambient 1 stop under the true ambient reading and bounce the flash not only will you have less blinking, you will have betting looking flash shots.

Andrew

 

[alex904]

I would say Nikon D70s does not give you anything extra over 5D that would make you dump your old lenses. I don't want to start conversatin of which camera is better. They both are capable cameras.

--
http://www.pictures2.com

 

[Craig Davis]

I originally had the Minolta 404si with 2 lenses a remote and a Nissin 32AF flash. The 35-80 and the 70-210. I bought the 7D body only in the view that I'd be buying a new lens to replace the 35-80.

I'm very happy with the 7D just waiting the new lenses to be released by KM (hopefully next month) so I can make up my mind which lens to get.

 

[mlam3d]

I think after Sony do their homework and estimated the situations, Nikon is not worth the money, and also buying out Nikon which is not cheap as at all.

--
Marvin
------------------------------------------
7D Rock!
Minolta 50mm f1.7
Tamron 28-105mm f2.8 SP
Minolta 80-200mm f2.8 APO {black}
Minolta 100-300mm f4.5-5.6 APO

 

[Videoguy]

OK, now you will end up with eyes closed in flash photography due
to preflash with all digital SLRs. Do a search on preflash for
more info.

I think this really depends on which camera you're using. My KM A1
has very noticeably pre-flash delay but my Nikon D70's is much,
much shorter

Not necessarily a good thing. People blink different delays/length of blink. I can blink between the preflash and exposure easily, and my eyes are open completely in the picture. I have to intentionally blink slower or let my eyes stay closed for the 5D to catch me. If the preflash to flash delay was shorter, it would catch my fast blinks. Right now, the 5D has problem with the slow (or long) blinkers.

I actually first read complaints about preflash blinking from the Nikon forum, originally considering a D50. And a friend of mine has D70, and he complains about it also. He has on external flash.

. I haven't run into any blink-reflex issues with my

D70. FWIW, it can always lock in a manually fired pre-flash
setting so all subsequent flash shots won't require pre-flash.

Well, I can completely avoid it with the 5D also. I rather not have to use workarounds.

Is the AS and the fact that I can use my 75-300 lens
worth sticking with KM ?

Depends on how important AS is to you. If you do a lot of
low-light work, the AS might be useful enough to go with KM.

larsbc

 

[Videoguy]

If you do some of the things I have mentioned, like use ISO 400
with the ambient 1 stop under the true ambient reading and bounce
the flash not only will you have less blinking, you will have
betting looking flash shots.

I guess I wasn't very clear in my last posts. Yes, I know workarounds to avoid it. I thought I mentioned that - it's been discussed in various past threads. But sometimes it's a hassle. As for bounce and ambient, there are many situations where you cant bounce and/or where there is little or poor ambient light. I would prefer not have to go into 2 second delay. And now I have an external flash, so no more redeye workaround. Some people are going to blink, even though the flash intensity may be reduced or directed elsewhere. There's also the off-camera flash techniquie, but usually not very convenient. The preflash seems as bright and long as the exposure flash. Seems they need to make an adjustment for that. I'm sure this can be improved on in the future. The Metz seems like a good alternative if someone has the dough.

 

[Videoguy]

3600HS is a good flash. I have one and like it so far. Andrew likes his. I haven't heard many complaints. Preflash has nothing to do with the 3600HS specifically.

thanks.
so is it because the 3600HS is old, cheap or because the
limitations that KM had to design that way.

 

[larsbc]

OK, now you will end up with eyes closed in flash photography due
to preflash with all digital SLRs. Do a search on preflash for
more info.

I think this really depends on which camera you're using. My KM A1
has very noticeably pre-flash delay but my Nikon D70's is much,
much shorter

Not necessarily a good thing. People blink different delays/length
of blink. I can blink between the preflash and exposure easily,
and my eyes are open completely in the picture. I have to
intentionally blink slower or let my eyes stay closed for the 5D to
catch me. If the preflash to flash delay was shorter, it would
catch my fast blinks. Right now, the 5D has problem with the slow
(or long) blinkers.

[snip]

. I haven't run into any blink-reflex issues with my

D70. FWIW, it can always lock in a manually fired pre-flash
setting so all subsequent flash shots won't require pre-flash.

Well, I can completely avoid it with the 5D also. I rather not
have to use workarounds.

What are you using that isn't a workaround? Manual or auto-mode in an external flash? Still a workaround since you're giving up TTL metering. And if there is a workaround, then why tell Protea that he'll have to deal with flash blinkers?

larsbc

 

[midwestshutterbug]

I do not think cost was the issue. We are talking about Sony here. think Japans version of Microsoft. I believe, and this is strictly conjecture on my part, that Sony did not think Nikon had enough products under development or the potential to develop enough products, to give Sony the same footprint in the DLSR market as they have in the pro-sumer market.

Sony's greatest single marketing time is the USA publics perception that Sony is Quality and that Sony is Advanced.

Canon would cost too much. Not Nikon.

Minolta has gone on record as stating that the DSLR market is going to be their main target. While coming late to the game, they have shown up with yet another tremendous technological advancement. More importantly, something that will be perceived by the purchasing public as an item that is worth owning or upgrading their present sytem to obtain.

Minolta developed AF and promptly lost that edge.

Minolta had the best Flash system for years, but never fully promoted it and by the time that others became aware of just how tremendous it truly was, Canon & Nikon both had systems that were close. Not as good but close.

i just feel that a company as large as Sony, as savvy as Sony has shown itself to be, would know enough about what is the development pipeline, to align themselves with a winning, or at least up & coming system.

I also feel that based upon what has been disclosed thus far, Sony got the better of the deal, much more so than Minolta, but time will tell.

--
Dave Patterson
---------------------
Midwestshutterbug.com

 

[theswede #100093]

Sony have not pulled out of making PDA's. They sell them by the metric ton still. What they have abandoned is the third party Palm OS, and the traditional tablet form factor. Sony does not like generic solutions, where they cannot put their own interface on things, thus they do not like Palm OS increasing genericness. Also, PDA's sell really badly in western countries, while they sell tremendously well in Japan.

My point; Sony will do what is good for their bottom line, like anyone else. The market for DSLR's is exploding. Thus, it would be very unlikely Sony will back out of this market, given that they have the resources necessary to exploit it (which, sadly, KM has some issue with).

 

[Videoguy]

larsbc stated:
What are you using that isn't a workaround? Manual or auto-mode in
an external flash? Still a workaround since you're giving up TTL
metering.

I never said anything about a manual flash. If you use the Metz 54MZ5, there is no workaround. That's simply using equipment that allows great pictures without having to think about workarounds. You simply take the picture without having to worry about setting a 2 second timer, or delay the shot to add more ambient light, warning the subject that there will be 2 flashes, or any of that. With the Metz, the camera settings are still sent to the flash, and the flash has a sensor to meter at exposure time, which takes the place of preflash. I do not consider this a workaround, just a better choice of equipment that uses its own sensor to prevent preflash while stilling communicating with the camera for iso, fec, aperture, focal length, etc. I have a 3600HS myself, but I will buy the Metz if I get tired of workarounds due to too many people blinking.

And if there is a workaround, then why tell Protea that
he'll have to deal with flash blinkers?

larsbc

Because he WILL have to deal with it. Using workarounds is something you are "dealing" with that you would not have to if there was no preflash. Very simple concept. Do a search of this forum for the Metz 54MZ4 for more details. Remember, Protea is the one that said, "I’d end up with a kid with their eyes closed." So considering I'm well aware of all the pre-flash blinking issues with DSLR's, I consider it a very helpful to let him know that there are still blinking issues to deal with.

 

[Videoguy]

Just to clarify...

Preflash is NOT just with Minolta DSLRs.

So if youre considering DSLR, Minolta is still a great choice, and I highly recommend.

 

[mlam3d]

I agreed with some of your point. However, Nikon is not a small company. Their business is not limited to Camera, but all the optic related field. But if compare to Canon and KM, Nikon is only like a medium size. Which is kind of like BMW, not a big company but no one can easily takeover them since the revenue they make.

And I think you are right, Sony is like Microsoft, but which doesn't mean they can all the suddent buy out Autodesk or Corel. But I think the main point is Nikon is not worth the investment, I mean in a long run, like what i said in the previous post. They are lacking something very unique to stay close in the future games.

For KM, we have a very unique in body AS system. Our AF and flash have alot of potential, and also one of the main reason is, Sony see the potential of KM and they are now also in financial problems.......Which may lead to good news and bad news.......Good news is we now have a very stronge partner to share the development and promotion cost.....bad news at the end after Sony eat up all out future customer, KM may died.....which is the worst case......

Just my 2 cents.

Btw, I think now the best flash system is with Nikon, not KM or Canon.
Like for me,
Nikon is flash and metering
Canon is AF system and lens lineup
KM is incamera AS and photogaper friendly
Fuji is DR and film like color

If we can combine them all, we will have a perfect camera!

Happy shooting!

--
Marvin
------------------------------------------
7D Rock!
Minolta 50mm f1.7
Tamron 28-105mm f2.8 SP
Minolta 80-200mm f2.8 APO {black}
Minolta 100-300mm f4.5-5.6 APO

 

[drejc]

I don't think nikon will gave up since Sony did buy KM. There is also Fuji and their own sensor development. If nikon put better sensor like Fuji have I think we have a good winner here.

I think after Sony do their homework and estimated the situations,
Nikon is not worth the money, and also buying out Nikon which is
not cheap as at all.

--
Marvin
------------------------------------------
7D Rock!
Minolta 50mm f1.7
Tamron 28-105mm f2.8 SP
Minolta 80-200mm f2.8 APO {black}
Minolta 100-300mm f4.5-5.6 APO

 

[larsbc]

larsbc stated:
What are you using that isn't a workaround? Manual or auto-mode in
an external flash? Still a workaround since you're giving up TTL
metering.

I never said anything about a manual flash. If you use the Metz
54MZ5, there is no workaround. That's simply using equipment that
allows great pictures without having to think about workarounds.

Basically, I'm taking issue with you describing the use of pre-flash exposure lock as a "workaround" while recommending an auto mode flash as a true solution.

Nikon's pre-flash exposure lock gives you TTL flash metering and no-preflash before each shot. It only requires that you shoot from approximately the same position for subsequent photos.

Your non-workaround system consists of an external flash unit operating in a mode that does not provide TTL flash. I have a Metz flash unit (45CT-5) as well as some Vivitar units, all of which have the auto-thyristor sensing circuitry. In my experience, TTL metering is far more accurate than what I get from the flashes in auto mode.

Depending on what's important to you, either could be described as a workaround.

I'm not denigrating your solution to pre-flash, I'm just pointing out that it is not the only one and neither is better than the other in all situations.

larsbc

 

[Videoguy]

larsbc stated:
What are you using that isn't a workaround? Manual or auto-mode in
an external flash? Still a workaround since you're giving up TTL
metering.

I never said anything about a manual flash. If you use the Metz
54MZ5, there is no workaround. That's simply using equipment that
allows great pictures without having to think about workarounds.

Basically, I'm taking issue with you describing the use of
pre-flash exposure lock as a "workaround" while recommending an
auto mode flash as a true solution.

Definitely is a workaround using the AEL lock method just to avoid preflash. The only true solution to preflash is one that eliminates it all together, that's why I mention the Metz 54MZ4.

Nikon's pre-flash exposure lock gives you TTL flash metering and
no-preflash before each shot. It only requires that you shoot from
approximately the same position for subsequent photos.

So I'm not allowed to move to take more shots and move my camera angle toward an area with different lighting. Sounds like a workaround to me. I rather not have to do that.

Your non-workaround system consists of an external flash unit
operating in a mode that does not provide TTL flash.

Metz actually works with TTL if you buy the M5 adaptor from Metz for the Minolta. But it gets that camera info from the camera and uses the sensor on the Metz, so the best of both worlds.

In my experience, TTL
metering is far more accurate than what I get from the flashes in
auto mode.

But remember, the Metz get the camera info in auto mode and uses its own sensor so that it can take a better shot, but without the preflash. And people have very good experience with it as mentioned in other threads, possibly better than the in-camera if just using TTL, which is required rather than ADI when not using the D lens.

Depending on what's important to you, either could be described as
a workaround.

I have a hard time considering a different choice of equipment as a workaround. I consider workaround is something you have to do when shooting to prevent a preflash (or the effect of it) at the time you are shooting, whether using a 2 second timer, AEL, redeye, etc.

I'm not denigrating your solution to pre-flash, I'm just pointing
out that it is not the only one and neither is better than the
other in all situations.

Maybe not all, but I prefer the one that covers the most bases that I don't have to worry about when shooting as a routine.

Having said all that, I currently have the 3600HS. I will continue to use it for the time being to see how much of a problem I have when using good flash and exposure techniques and using the 2-second time if absolutely needed. At least I know there is a Metz out there if needed.

 

[larsbc]

larsbc wrote:

[snip]

Basically, I'm taking issue with you describing the use of
pre-flash exposure lock as a "workaround" while recommending an
auto mode flash as a true solution.

Definitely is a workaround using the AEL lock method just to avoid
preflash. The only true solution to preflash is one that
eliminates it all together, that's why I mention the Metz 54MZ4.

Obviously, we disagree on what constitutes a work-around. My method allows you to take advantage of the camera's TTL multi-segment metering system, your method requires no auto exposure locking.

Nikon's pre-flash exposure lock gives you TTL flash metering and
no-preflash before each shot. It only requires that you shoot from
approximately the same position for subsequent photos.

So I'm not allowed to move to take more shots and move my camera
angle toward an area with different lighting. Sounds like a
workaround to me. I rather not have to do that.

You can take lots of subsequent photos with the locked-in exposure. For that matter, you can move around as well, as long as the lighting and subject distance is about the same. If you think about the situations in which this can be used, it is, in fact, quite useful. You also don't need to attach an external flash to do this, so this option is always available to you.

Your non-workaround system consists of an external flash unit
operating in a mode that does not provide TTL flash.

Metz actually works with TTL if you buy the M5 adaptor from Metz
for the Minolta. But it gets that camera info from the camera and
uses the sensor on the Metz, so the best of both worlds.

Yes, I know this, and it is a nice, if expensive, option.

In my experience, TTL
metering is far more accurate than what I get from the flashes in
auto mode.

But remember, the Metz get the camera info in auto mode and uses
its own sensor so that it can take a better shot, but without the
preflash. And people have very good experience with it as
mentioned in other threads, possibly better than the in-camera if
just using TTL, which is required rather than ADI when not using
the D lens.

As I've said, my experience is that TTL provides better flash results than auto-mode (ie: using the flash unit's built-in light sensor). Whether it gets the aperture automatically or manually from the lens doesn't matter. To argue otherwise would be to say that average metering gives equal or better results than multi-segment metering. There will be exceptions, of course, but by and large, the results of a multi-segment metering of today's cameras is much better than anything that a flash's light sensor will produce.

Depending on what's important to you, either could be described as
a workaround.

I have a hard time considering a different choice of equipment as a
workaround. I consider workaround is something you have to do when
shooting to prevent a preflash (or the effect of it) at the time
you are shooting, whether using a 2 second timer, AEL, redeye, etc.

Based on your definition, yes, it is a workaround. Based on mine, they're both workarounds.

I'm not denigrating your solution to pre-flash, I'm just pointing
out that it is not the only one and neither is better than the
other in all situations.

Maybe not all, but I prefer the one that covers the most bases that
I don't have to worry about when shooting as a routine.

I've tried both methods and I'm well aware of how well each works. I've gotten good shots with my 45CT-5 (the dual flash heads are handy -- the 54MZ4 has them, too, right?), but I've gotten even better results with TTL flash metering. If the subject was filling most of the frame, I'd be fine using auto mode on a flash unit, but for off-center subjects with a really dark/light background or other tricky lighting situations, the pre-flash lock is more reliable, in my experience, for metering. Using it is no more cumbersome than using the AEL button which we're all familiar with, it works exactly the same way.

Having said all that, I currently have the 3600HS. I will continue
to use it for the time being to see how much of a problem I have
when using good flash and exposure techniques and using the
2-second time if absolutely needed. At least I know there is a
Metz out there if needed.

BTW, why would you use the 3600HS if you've got the 54MZ4? Don't you have the Minolta module for it? Just curious.

Anyway, I think we've given the OP more than enough info on these two flash-blink avoidance methods. ;-)

larsbc

 

[Videoguy]

I did not get the 54MZ4. I researched it to a reasonable depth getting some feedback from 7D users specifically. Also talked to Metz about it. I was not 100% comfortable going with it, especially at $350+, when I could get a 3600HS for less than half of that. I decided to take my chances to see if I can manage people photography well enough to avoid a lot of blinking, such as Andrew listed in the "lazy eyes" thread a few days ago.