Which System is Best?

[AK_2]

The 20d with an f2.8 is very good (not as good as the mk2), but
with the big aps is actually worse than the 10d.

Huh? Really?

i didn't beleive it either, that's why I tested so many before making it public knowledge.

20d with modern f4 lenses I tested, all just within 1 x depth of field (some slightly better)

20d with modern f2.8 lenses I personally tested, almost just within 1/2 (half) dof.
20d with f1.8 lenses I tested, just within 1 x dof
20d with f1.4 and f1.2 lenses I tested, well outside 1 x dof

1dmk2 with f1.2, f1.4, f1.8, f2.8 all within 1/2 dof.

The mk2 was slightly better on f2.8 and vastly superior on f1.2/f1.4. The difference of mk2 on f2.8 70-200 f2.8 L can be seen clearly when asistancts (whose cameras i've tested to be as above) shoot over my shoulder. My shots are always just that little bit sharper, depsite high shutter speeds etc.

The 20d is very good with a good f2.8 lens (including sigma). Perhaps 95% of mk2's performance on static subjects for less than half the price.

Regards,
Kev

 

[AK_2]

I'm confused ;-))

What are we comparing ???

Is it 1d (1.25) with 200
20d (1.6) with 200
E1 with 150 (1.85x)

It's not easy to do direct comparisons ;-))

What a comparison...
The Oly 150 has a 2X crop factor, if you want the same FOV you have
to look at a 300mm if using an EOS 1D

What about APS-C cameras (more in-line with Oly too) with the 1.6x
FOV. In which case, the closest lens is the Canon 200 f/2.8L with a
price of ~ US$650. Yes, it's a f/2.8 but the high ISO capability
of Canon more than makes up for this difference.

Canon Telephoto EF 300mm f/2.8L IS Image Stabilizer USM Autofocus
Lens Imported
Mfr# 2531A002 • B&H# CA30028LISEF
Our Price: $ 3,749.95

BUT the Oly does NOT have IS and USM (or equivalent technology),
does it?

Not sure the oly approach to usm is either better or worse - but accuracy is better over whole range compared to canons 10d/20d/350 etc.

Regards,
Kev

 

[futureassassin]

Oly only has what 6 lenses right now and 2 bodies so they better not have any of them not working with another.

Yes because I need 20 lenses in my bag when I only shoot in the 22-50mm side.

Sure I see people mentioning Oly is missing certain range lenses but those are all coming this year with 0 compatibility issues.

Anyone expecting any new camera system to have a comparable amount of lenses to another manufacturers 20 year linup needs to check their head.

Of course if you limit the nikon or canon system to a laughable 2 bodies and 6 lenses you would end up with the same compatibility.

Funny how when it comes to compatibality everyone of you fan boys says lets wait will they get more numbers. Well the reality is now and the compatibility problems are nil and will be nil when more bodies and lenses comeout.

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[charlesh]

in my opinion, as all of the DSLRs are quite capable. Nikon and Canon obviously have the largest system of lenses, accessories, etc. Me, I went with Olympus and the E-1 and couldn't be happier. Small system but great body and good lenses.
--
charlesh

 

[futureassassin]

BUT the Oly does NOT have IS and USM (or equivalent technology), does it?

I cant hear my lenses focus

As for IS well like I said "for me" I have no use for it so anyone using the IS card its a moot point to me. Sure others want it and that will be a hole in the system for them but no one seems to get the idea that the system is only a few years old and will be missing certain features.
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[thw]

20d with modern f4 lenses I tested, all just within 1 x depth of
field (some slightly better)
20d with modern f2.8 lenses I personally tested, almost just within
1/2 (half) dof.
20d with f1.8 lenses I tested, just within 1 x dof
20d with f1.4 and f1.2 lenses I tested, well outside 1 x dof
1dmk2 with f1.2, f1.4, f1.8, f2.8 all within 1/2 dof.

the 10D? Do you have the numbers too? I am curious about this.

In order to increase their profit margin, Canon has obviously chosen to use a poorer AF system and remove spot-metering from their consumer DSLR line.

 

[T3]

Exactly. All EF lenses work on all EOS bodies, period! To say otherwise is simply untrue. I have a 10 year old Rebel X film SLR. I can put the latest Canon IS supertelephoto on it, and everything works perfectly. All metering, all autofocus, all Image Stabilization capabilities.

You're one of those people who slags a whole company and lens
portfolio, because you've had a "problem" with your kit, which most
likely, was caused by user error in the first place.

The Canon EF system is interchangeable across the whole lineup.
Funnily enough the older Nikkor lenses work better on the Canon
cameras than on the newer Nikons where they can't even meter. As
for IS, well lets just say that if there were no IS, all the
photographers you see at major events with their big white lenses
would be very unhappy.

LOL

 

[T3]

How about a body that works with 7 systems? A Canon EOS body will accept lenses from Nikon F, Leica R, Leica Visoflex, Contax/Zeiss (RTS), Pentax 42mm Screw Mount, and Olympus OM manual-focus lens systems, in addition to the Canon EF system. Digital Outback Photo has a good article on using non-Canon manual lenses on Canon EOS bodies:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/the_bag/paul_lens_adapters/essay.html

So if you have a desire to use the best Leica R or Zeiss lenses on your DSLR, you can with a Canon EOS body.

And all of Canon's EOS bodies will also accept split-prism focus screens, which makes using manual focus lenses even more enjoyable and effective. You can get these split prism focus screens here:

http://www.keoptics.com/
http://www.angelglimpse.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/screen4DSLR/

I was looking at the Nikon 50 review by Phil and all 4 DSLR's look
the same. They all do an amazing job.

Everyone keeps writing that you are buying into a system of lenses
and not a single camera.

So my honest question - which system is best?

Is it Canon, Nikon, Konica Minolta or Pentax?

Canon looks like the largest with Nikon second and the other two
trailing badly. But, the Minolta AS system looks neat.

Which is your favorite and why?

 

[Tchou]

What about APS-C cameras (more in-line with Oly too) with the 1.6x
FOV. In which case, the closest lens is the Canon 200 f/2.8L with a
price of ~ US$650. Yes, it's a f/2.8 but the high ISO capability
of Canon more than makes up for this difference.

BUT the Oly does NOT have IS and USM (or equivalent technology),
does it?

Oly does not have IS yet, USM, as i've seen, is quieter, ok but what is the point when the camera make a lot of noise by itself, Oly's lenses are maybe less quiet but the body itself makes less noise.

Also, I can add that except the 14-45mm and the 40-150mm zooms, all lenses are weather sealed, which is quite usefull when using a weather sealed body in harsh conditions..

As you can see each has it's advantages, and you compare lenses which are the very high-end on 4/3 line... (the silver ringed line), you must compare it with the very high end of Canon line... You also will see that regarding the quality of the lenses, the price is not that much high.

--
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My gear is in my profile...

 

[AK_2]

A perfectly calibrated 10d, tends to operate just outside 1 x dof, across a range of different aperture lenses. This assumes of course the lenses are well calibrated.

The 1 x dof, is the varience between shots.

Thus if the 10d is (on average) front focus calibrated (by mistake as canon uk have done due to wrong test method and chart - meaning they completely ignored the canon inc service manual guidelines) by 1 x dof, then the range of focus will be from spot on to up to 2 x dof fron focussed. Technically such a camera (misadjusted would never again back focus). This type of problem is hard to spot in real life pictures, as surprising as that may sound, because you don't typically have something in front of your subject to compare sharpness on.

If the same 10d were back focus adjusted by 2 x dof, then with the vairence shots would vary from 3 x dof back focus to 2 x dof back focus. This is perhaps the easiest focus error to spot in real life pictures. You know when you shoot someone wide open close to a wall.

Surprisingly a badly adjusted camera from canon UK can easily be out by 3 x dof.

Then you add any lens errors in. If the camera is back adjusted by 1 x dof, and a lens front adjusted by 1 x dof, the end results may still be within 1 x dof on every shot.

I actually ended up with a 'matched' system. Thus it's highly unlikely anyone shooting in the same situation will get a sharper shot, because my kit is cherry picked for the best match between my lenses and new bodies that I could get.

I always use my two most popular lenses (the 70-200f2.8ISL and 24-70f2.8L) on their own bodies, as given best results in static tests.

Regards,
Kev

 

[AK_2]

Exactly. All EF lenses work on all EOS bodies, period! To say
otherwise is simply untrue. I have a 10 year old Rebel X film SLR.
I can put the latest Canon IS supertelephoto on it, and everything
works perfectly. All metering, all autofocus, all Image
Stabilization capabilities.

Your focussing works perfectly ???

What, better than my 1dmk2's ???

My Mk2's only acheive just within 1/2 (half) x depth of field at x40 focal length distance. And it varies every shot, especially when the lens starts from infinity versus nearest focus point. I consider this exceptionally good af performance, and fine for all my needs, but I don't call it perfect, no such thing with an open loop system.

Do you really beleive that your 350 is better than my mk2 ???

Do you really beleive I can't tell the difference between a lens that works on a 1dmk2, and the same lens not working to anywhere near the same standard on a 20d ???

Do share you homework to draw these conclusions . . or are you just making a statement you think is true from the extent of your own experience ???

2 years ago, I used to think my 10d's focussed perfectly . . . but after several 1,000 shots with the majority looking a little to too soft, I had to admit something was wrong . . . and the test at http://www.canon-dslr.com proves it beyond any doubt.

After several 1,000 more shots, with cameras that pass those test, I know know what sharp is, and what consitent excellent af accuracy is. My 1dmk2's have that, the 20d nearly has it with modern f2.8 lenses, but the 20d most definately doesn't with lenses like the 85mm 1.2 and 50mm 1.4.

Regards
Kevin

 

[T3]

The other long-term issue with Oly and their 4/3 system is how many more megapixels they can squeeze into that tiny sensor. For people who are fine with 5mp or 8mp, it's probably not an issue. But for others, it is an issue. And there's a strong chance that even if they did squeeze more megapixels into the tiny 4/3 sensor, other larger sensors with the equal amount of megapixels will perform better thanks to larger pixel sizes, larger micro-lenses, etc.

 

[Tchou]

How about a body that works with 7 systems? A Canon EOS body will
accept lenses from Nikon F, Leica R, Leica Visoflex, Contax/Zeiss
(RTS), Pentax 42mm Screw Mount, and Olympus OM manual-focus lens
systems, in addition to the Canon EF system. Digital Outback Photo
has a good article on using non-Canon manual lenses on Canon EOS
bodies:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/the_bag/paul_lens_adapters/essay.html

So if you have a desire to use the best Leica R or Zeiss lenses on
your DSLR, you can with a Canon EOS body.

And all of Canon's EOS bodies will also accept split-prism focus
screens, which makes using manual focus lenses even more enjoyable
and effective. You can get these split prism focus screens here:

http://www.keoptics.com/
http://www.angelglimpse.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/screen4DSLR/

This is not a Canon exclusive, you can also mount other brands on 4/3 systems....

Nikon F lenses, Pentax 42mm Screw Mount Lenses, Yashica Contax RTS Mount Lenses, Leica R, Pentax K, Olympus OM, and Exakta

http://www.cameraquest.com/adapt_olyE1.htm

there are also third party split-prism focus screens for E-1.
--
Comments are always welcome...
My gear is in my profile...

 

[T3]

Exactly. All EF lenses work on all EOS bodies, period! To say
otherwise is simply untrue. I have a 10 year old Rebel X film SLR.
I can put the latest Canon IS supertelephoto on it, and everything
works perfectly. All metering, all autofocus, all Image
Stabilization capabilities.

Your focussing works perfectly ???

Uh, YES! What else do you want? I'm very happy with it!

And for added value, I'm even going to be adding a split-prism focusing screen to my 20D. Because autofocus, regardless of which brand it's from, is not 100% perfect. Hey, life isn't 100% perfect.

 

[AK_2]

The other long-term issue with Oly and their 4/3 system is how many
more megapixels they can squeeze into that tiny sensor. For people
who are fine with 5mp or 8mp, it's probably not an issue. But for
others, it is an issue. And there's a strong chance that even if
they did squeeze more megapixels into the tiny 4/3 sensor, other
larger sensors with the equal amount of megapixels will perform
better thanks to larger pixel sizes, larger micro-lenses, etc.

What like Medium Format with digital backs . . . so MP's is where it's at then.

How about the fashion spread, double A4 pages, done on the 1d with onlly 4mp. The other pros shooting for the mag, couldn't spot the difference between that and the adjacent pages with the same double page spread from a 1ds . . .

It ain't all mp's . . . for most social photography (portrait and wedding) 6mp was sufficient, 8mp-12mp is about the most we need, other than to impress the clients that think like you . . . Be aware with a higher resolving lens, and accurate af the oly has other advantages. For me the problem of a smaller sensor is not the mp's and noise, that's pretty much in the past now, it's about camera shake and smaller viewfinders.

Regards,
Kev

 

[T3]

How about a body that works with 7 systems? A Canon EOS body will
accept lenses from Nikon F, Leica R, Leica Visoflex, Contax/Zeiss
(RTS), Pentax 42mm Screw Mount, and Olympus OM manual-focus lens
systems, in addition to the Canon EF system. Digital Outback Photo
has a good article on using non-Canon manual lenses on Canon EOS
bodies:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/the_bag/paul_lens_adapters/essay.html

So if you have a desire to use the best Leica R or Zeiss lenses on
your DSLR, you can with a Canon EOS body.

And all of Canon's EOS bodies will also accept split-prism focus
screens, which makes using manual focus lenses even more enjoyable
and effective. You can get these split prism focus screens here:

http://www.keoptics.com/
http://www.angelglimpse.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/screen4DSLR/

This is not a Canon exclusive, you can also mount other brands on
4/3 systems....
Nikon F lenses, Pentax 42mm Screw Mount Lenses, Yashica Contax RTS
Mount Lenses, Leica R, Pentax K, Olympus OM, and Exakta

http://www.cameraquest.com/adapt_olyE1.htm

there are also third party split-prism focus screens for E-1.

Well, assuming the Oly system is equal in that respect, they still don't offer IS lenses. Nor do they offer larger sensor formats. As much as I like 1.6x, it just does not give the same depth-of-field characteristics as a full frame sensor. I used to love the shallow depth-of-field of my 50/1.4 on my 35mm film body. For my 1.6x bodies, I replaced the 50/1.4 with a 35/1.4L to approximate the same perspective. But the shallow depth-of-field characteristics just can't compare to 35mm full frame. It's just not the same. And I assume it would be even worse with a 4/3 sensor using lenses of even shorter focal length to deliver the same "effective" focal length as on 35mm film. At least Canon offers 1.3x and FF sensors. I'm just waiting until both fall to more affordable prices, in smaller bodies. That's something I have no chance of pursuing with the Oly 4/3 system. As an entire system, the Oly system is nice, but it just doesn't offer the breadth of options that the Canon EOS system does.

 

[AK_2]

Your focussing works perfectly ???

Uh, YES! What else do you want? I'm very happy with it!

And for added value, I'm even going to be adding a split-prism
focusing screen to my 20D. Because autofocus, regardless of which
brand it's from, is not 100% perfect. Hey, life isn't 100% perfect.

So your focussing works perfectly . . .

but not 100% perfectly . . .

sure that makes sense, so you clearly have good grounds to knock my view that it isn't perfect.

At least we have an acknowledgement from you your af could be better . . . but you still think it's perfect . . . you make a lot of sense.

Regards,
Kev

 

[T3]

Well, if you're going through life looking for 100% perfection, you'll be sorely disappointed. Most of us know that hitting perfect focus is a numbers game. You don't show up to a game/event/job expecting to shoot only a few shots and having them all come out perfectly. We shoot, we shoot a lot, and we shoot ever and over again, because we know that there's no such thing as 100% perfection, 100% success. And it's been like that from the beginning of autofocus, and it continues today, with all systems.

So your focussing works perfectly . . .

but not 100% perfectly . . .

sure that makes sense, so you clearly have good grounds to knock my
view that it isn't perfect.

At least we have an acknowledgement from you your af could be
better . . . but you still think it's perfect . . . you make a lot
of sense.

Regards,
Kev

 

[JPLane]

I rephased my inarticulate question to be - why did you choose the system you did?

 

[T3]

I rephased my inarticulate question to be - why did you choose the
system you did?

Given all the responses and reasons people have given so far, you might have enough information to choose for yourself by now. Just pick one and go out and shoot.