Shutter Shock a myth

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
cosmonaut
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Shutter Shock a myth
6 months ago

I have been using the a7R, EA-LA4, 70-400mm combo and also the 70-300mm and I am getting really detailed and sharp images. The only thing is you have to go by the old rule when shooting with a zoom. Your shutter speed has to be as high as the focal length. Ect. at 300mm you need to be 1/300th or faster. This images are typical of what I am seeing.

I go back to what I said before if the sensor doesn't move like with the in body IS cameras it's just a matter of getting the camera steady and using a high enough shutter speed.

I sold my E-M1 because of the low amount of keepers I was getting. I can push the ISO so much higher on the a7R there is seldom need of IS.

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Stu 5
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Re: Shutter Shock a myth
In reply to cosmonaut, 6 months ago

So why not post samples taken at 1/300 instead of 1/4000? Plus this is always going to vary from a one model lens to another. Not all telephotos are going to do it. All you have proved is it does not effect the lens that you use. Nothing more than that.

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Jefenator
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Re: Shutter Shock a myth
In reply to cosmonaut, 6 months ago

A myth and an issue that does not affect your particular usage are not the same thing.

FWIW I'm glad to hear you're not having problems.

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Horshack
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Re: Shutter Shock a myth
In reply to cosmonaut, 6 months ago

cosmonaut wrote:

I have been using the a7R, EA-LA4, 70-400mm combo and also the 70-300mm and I am getting really detailed and sharp images. The only thing is you have to go by the old rule when shooting with a zoom. Your shutter speed has to be as high as the focal length. Ect. at 300mm you need to be 1/300th or faster. This images are typical of what I am seeing.

The 1/FL rule applies to hand-held usage only.

I go back to what I said before if the sensor doesn't move like with the in body IS cameras it's just a matter of getting the camera steady and using a high enough shutter speed.

You've said it many times and it's still incorrect.

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quezra
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Re: Shutter Shock a myth
In reply to Stu 5, 6 months ago

So why not post samples taken at 1/300 instead of 1/4000? Plus this is always going to vary from a one model lens to another. Not all telephotos are going to do it. All you have proved is it does not effect the lens that you use. Nothing more than that.

It's hilarious how often you insist we take every complaint about Sony cameras seriously, no matter how evidence-free the complaint or obvious the problem is user-related, yet when someone does not have a problem you're all like "That's not good enough!!!!"

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nzmacro
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Re: Shutter Shock a myth
In reply to cosmonaut, 6 months ago

cosmonaut wrote:

I have been using the a7R, EA-LA4, 70-400mm combo and also the 70-300mm and I am getting really detailed and sharp images. The only thing is you have to go by the old rule when shooting with a zoom. Your shutter speed has to be as high as the focal length. Ect. at 300mm you need to be 1/300th or faster. This images are typical of what I am seeing.

I go back to what I said before if the sensor doesn't move like with the in body IS cameras it's just a matter of getting the camera steady and using a high enough shutter speed.

I sold my E-M1 because of the low amount of keepers I was getting. I can push the ISO so much higher on the a7R there is seldom need of IS.

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Good to see, but don't tell them about the EM1 in the m4/3 forum mate. Gees. I came from m4/3 a couple of years ago. The EM1 is darn nice though I must admit.

Funny you should post these, I use exactly the same subjects to test my lenses from our porch with the long tele lenses, at a good long distance of a couple of miles on a large tower here.

All the best.

Danny.

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j900
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Your examples are nowhere near sharp in my book
In reply to cosmonaut, 6 months ago

the antenna looks fuzzy on the 2nd one, and there's not much fine detail to judge critical sharpness on these samples.

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cosmonaut
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Re: Your examples are nowhere near sharp in my book
In reply to j900, 6 months ago

I can see perhaps that a severe enough shutter movement could make moving elements in a lenses IS system move but I have had some old film cameras that had some really bad mirror slap and it was just a point of a sturdy camera. I just don't see a shutter slapping so hard it can jar a camera in ones hands unless it was a long exposure.

I think it's pretty sharp I mean I can see two plugs in the bottom of the first box from several hundred yards away.

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j900
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Re: Your examples are nowhere near sharp in my book
In reply to cosmonaut, 6 months ago

cosmonaut wrote:

I think it's pretty sharp I mean I can see two plugs in the bottom of the first box from several hundred yards away.

Your wood images certainly are better test samples as they show a lot more fine detail. Is the second wood image a 100 percent crop? If so I'd say sharpness is satisfying - but then again this does not solve the tripod mounted / low shutter speed issue, which is real from all accounts I've seen.

J

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S3ZAi
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Re: Shutter Shock a myth
In reply to cosmonaut, 6 months ago

cosmonaut wrote:

I have been using the a7R, EA-LA4, 70-400mm combo and also the 70-300mm and I am getting really detailed and sharp images. The only thing is you have to go by the old rule when shooting with a zoom. Your shutter speed has to be as high as the focal length. Ect. at 300mm you need to be 1/300th or faster. This images are typical of what I am seeing.

I go back to what I said before if the sensor doesn't move like with the in body IS cameras it's just a matter of getting the camera steady and using a high enough shutter speed.

I sold my E-M1 because of the low amount of keepers I was getting. I can push the ISO so much higher on the a7R there is seldom need of IS.

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+1, especially on the high iso capability.

Let's just close this subject of shutter shock, when put in perspective, it doesn't mean anything at all.

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cosmonaut
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Re: Your examples are nowhere near sharp in my book
In reply to j900, 6 months ago

ISO 50 and 8 sec exposure. I have no issues with tripod shots either. EA-LA-4 and 24-70mm. I got several exposures of this and everyone tack sharp.

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tex
tex
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It's not a myth, it's just that..
In reply to cosmonaut, 6 months ago

...it's happening in a very narrow band of shutter speeds, about 1/50 to 1/125.  And it can happen WITH the camera mounted on a tripod.  It is a problem specific to long lenses, it appears, and it's also more evident when mounting to the tripod from the lens foot.

I've seen the test results and I believe them.

I'll still buy the camera, since I don't use those focal lengths.  I'm a little unclear why people who ARE using those focal lengths would buy an A7r---seems very much like the wrong body for the job even w/o a shutter shock problem.  For long tele I'd either go with a stabilized, larger body with a better frame rate for handholding or for gimbal mounting. Seems very queer to me to deliberately choose a slow, small camera for this usage.

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Horshack
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Re: It's not a myth, it's just that..
In reply to tex, 6 months ago

tex wrote:

I'll still buy the camera, since I don't use those focal lengths. I'm a little unclear why people who ARE using those focal lengths would buy an A7r---seems very much like the wrong body for the job even w/o a shutter shock problem. For long tele I'd either go with a stabilized, larger body with a better frame rate for handholding or for gimbal mounting. Seems very queer to me to deliberately choose a slow, small camera for this usage.

Some are Canon users who want 36MP and higher dynamic range. Others for the ability to focus to an EVF.

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Stu 5
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Re: Shutter Shock a myth
In reply to quezra, 6 months ago

quezra wrote:

So why not post samples taken at 1/300 instead of 1/4000? Plus this is always going to vary from a one model lens to another. Not all telephotos are going to do it. All you have proved is it does not effect the lens that you use. Nothing more than that.

It's hilarious how often you insist we take every complaint about Sony cameras seriously, no matter how evidence-free the complaint or obvious the problem is user-related, yet when someone does not have a problem you're all like "That's not good enough!!!!"

Well it is not obvious the problem is user-related, that is the whole point. Perhaps if you had been trained to test photographic equipment you would know this.

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DavieK
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Re: It's not a myth, it's just that..
In reply to Horshack, 6 months ago

I've checked the shock using seismographic apps on the iPhone, and it has a duration of roughly 5ms (1/200th) peak, occurring at the very start of the exposure. So with 1/100th which is the worst setting for this, half the exposure can be jolted to a slightly offset position - and indeed, that's exactly what tests show. At 1/50th, only a quarter of the exposure is affected so it appears less strong and at 1/25th it's just a very faint shadow.. At 1/200th the entire exposure is over and complete within the peak of the shock displacement (if any - remember that different lenses, different tripods, different ways of gripping and supporting the camera will all have an effect and I can generally guarantee a sharp result at any shutter speed with my 40mm Nokton, for example).

The lenses you tested do not have stabilisation. The odd effect of this shock is that it seems to be transmitted to the lens and to hit the stabilisation sensor in the lens at just the wrong phase, making it react in the wrong direction or when not needed. The shake itself may have no effect at all, but causes a blip in the IS/OS which creates shake even when there was none. This seems to be the case with my 70-300mm Sigma OS, seemed to affect the 18-200mm Tamron VC, but does not affect the 28-70mm FE and the 10-18mm E - both of which are enabled for OSS on the A7R by Sony, and presumably have been tested and found to be OK.

In short, the shock is not a myth but it also is not some kind of guarantee of camera shake any more than a mirror action is a guarantee of camera shake. I think there is a very specific technical issue which affects IS/OS lenses, and a straightforward shake issue which affects longer lenses when mounted a certain way on specific tripod heads.

All I have to do to avoid the shake on my 70-300mm Sig OS in turn the OS off and follow normal hand-holding guidelines. But I'd like it if the OS worked, and I know there are some Canon IS users with adaptors able to power the IS who have found exactly the same. And we know that Sony has disabled OSS in lenses like the 55-210mm where it would be very useful.

David

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Stu 5
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Re: Your examples are nowhere near sharp in my book
In reply to j900, 6 months ago

j900 wrote:

cosmonaut wrote:

I think it's pretty sharp I mean I can see two plugs in the bottom of the first box from several hundred yards away.

Your wood images certainly are better test samples as they show a lot more fine detail. Is the second wood image a 100 percent crop? If so I'd say sharpness is satisfying - but then again this does not solve the tripod mounted / low shutter speed issue, which is real from all accounts I've seen.

J

The wood shot is far from OK. I have seen better from the sensor than this at 200 iso. Detail does not seem great. Would be interested in knowing if that is a 100% crop.

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Stu 5
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Re: Shutter Shock a myth
In reply to S3ZAi, 6 months ago

S3ZAi wrote:

cosmonaut wrote:

I have been using the a7R, EA-LA4, 70-400mm combo and also the 70-300mm and I am getting really detailed and sharp images. The only thing is you have to go by the old rule when shooting with a zoom. Your shutter speed has to be as high as the focal length. Ect. at 300mm you need to be 1/300th or faster. This images are typical of what I am seeing.

I go back to what I said before if the sensor doesn't move like with the in body IS cameras it's just a matter of getting the camera steady and using a high enough shutter speed.

I sold my E-M1 because of the low amount of keepers I was getting. I can push the ISO so much higher on the a7R there is seldom need of IS.

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+1, especially on the high iso capability.

Let's just close this subject of shutter shock, when put in perspective, it doesn't mean anything at all.

So you think this photo that was taken at 1/4000 proves shutter shock does not exist... it takes a lot more testing than that.

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secondclaw
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Re: Shutter Shock a myth
In reply to cosmonaut, 6 months ago

Seems a bit unfair to call it a myth, if there are others experiencing (and providing evidence) that they have the problem. If it's truly imaginary it will soon go away on its own.

On FM I believe those experiencing the issue found how to make it stable for long lenses - by mounting both lens foot and camera body to a bracket together, thus preventing resonance affecting exposure. Sounds like a good thing, no? Nikon was clearly concerned with this issue enough on D800e that they introduced a delay to mitigate it slightly, and so can Sony, if they're up to it.

For the record, I don't have it either - which may very well be due to my shooting style.

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S3ZAi
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Re: Shutter Shock a myth
In reply to cosmonaut, 6 months ago

The gist of the shutter shock myth is that *IF* you go look for it, you will find it. If you don't go look for it, you will probably never encounter it. If you encounter it, all you have to do is choose a different shutter speed, which is very well doable with the high-iso capability of the A7r. I think that was what the op already said in his words.

People insisting there is more to it than this are the people who went looking for it and thought they had found some dealbreaking issue, which it is not, by far.

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Stu 5
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Re: Shutter Shock a myth
In reply to S3ZAi, 6 months ago

S3ZAi wrote:

The gist of the shutter shock myth is that *IF* you go look for it, you will find it. If you don't go look for it, you will probably never encounter it. If you encounter it, all you have to do is choose a different shutter speed, which is very well doable with the high-iso capability of the A7r. I think that was what the op already said in his words.

You don't need to go looking for it to see it, as it is viewable at a lot less than 100%. Some people can't see it but some of those same people claim a photo is pin sharp when it is not either. Not that easy if it effects a number of shutter speeds and it waste time having to select new ISO values if you are in the middle of a shoot and you need to avoid certain shutter speeds. That wasted time could be losing you photos and if your a pro, money.

People insisting there is more to it than this are the people who went looking for it and thought they had found some dealbreaking issue, which it is not, by far.

It might not be deal breaking to you but it is to other people.

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