PAL vs NTSC - What does that mean in practise?

[RussAdams]

I'm not a video guy. I mostly take stills and will likely continue to do so.

I've ordered an A77 in Dublin, Ireland, which should arrive next Tuesday. But, I'm a Yank, and will be returning to the US sometime next year.

I've read the spec that says the European version will come with video set to PAL and not NTSC. And the warning from abstrusedali (in my thread saying I ordered one: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1037&message=39394730 ) that the A77 won't be switchable between the two.

And I've tried to figure out what that means from a usability standpoint.

DPReview says:

Image sizes (Video)
NTSC :

• AVCHD: 1920 x 1080 (60p/ 28Mbps/ PS, 60i/ 24Mbps/ FX, 60i/ 17Mbps/ FH, 24p/ 24Mbps/ FX, 24p/ 17Mbps/ FH)
• MP4: 1440 x 1080 (30fps/ 12Mbps), VGA: 640 x 480 (30fps/ 3Mbps)

PAL :

• 1920 x 1080 (50p/ 28Mbps/ PS, 50i/ 24Mbps/ FX, 50i/ 17Mbps/ FH, 25p/ 24Mbps/ FX, 25p/ 17Mbps/ FH)
• MP4: 1440 x 1080 (25fps/ 12M), VGA: 640 x 480 (25fps/ 3M)

File formats (Movie)
• AVCHD 2.0 (Progressive) / MP4
• MPEG-4 AVC (H.264)

Why does PAL record MP4's in 25fps and NTSC record MP4's in 30fps? Why should they be different? I thought MP4 was a computer standard, not a TV standard?

What PRACTICAL effect does that have on me?

Do PAL AVCHD and/or MP4 videos NOT play on NTSC systems or computers and vice versa?

If the camera records in PAL, I'm guessing that means I won't be able to plug it into an NTSC TV and play back the video using the camera. What about Stills? I'm guessing I won't be able to play back stills on TV's back in the States either. I've never done this with any camera. Should I care?

Confused...

I've poked around and can't come up with meaningful answers.

Advice or help would be greatly appreciated!

Russ

 

[IanML]

This is what I think - if I'm wrong, I'd like to be put right:

The PAL/NTSC thing is a hangover from broadcast analog TV. In the US, the mains frequency is 60Hz, and the early TVs used that to derive the frequency for the field rate of the displayed interlaced video, so you got 30 frames, 60 fields per second.

In Europe, the mains frequency is 50Hz, so, for the same reason, you got 25 frames, 50 fields per second.

Although TV design progressed, and stopped using the mains frequency as a sync source, the standards persisted.

The US chose the NTSC standard for color encoding ("Never twice same color" said the unkind), whilst the Europeans chose the more stable PAL (except the French, who built there own version called SECAM). This is why NTSC is associated with 30/60, and PAL with 25/50.

As you said, there is absolutely no reason why a modern, computer-based display, be it a TV or PC display, should stick to these values, but it's a historic hangover. All the TVs in my house will show 25 or 30 frames video via the HDMI port, so it would not surprise me if the same applies to you. Of course, the color data is not analog encoded, so calling these geographical distinctions NTSC and PAL is technically incorrect. It's now just used as a shorthand for the frame rate standard.

Why the industry doesn't now say "the days of analog video are long gone and we are going to standardise" is beyond me.

There's another issue for video afficionados. Cinema (remember that?) uses 24 frames per second, and the aforesaid buffs claim that gives video a special "cinematographic" quality. They look for video cameras to provide 24 fps, and, if it's not there, some of them would choose 25 in place of 30 as closer to their ideal.

I can't notice the difference between 25 and 30, let alone 24 and 25, but maybe others are more sensitive to these things.

Comments welcome.

--
Ian

 

[secam]

There will be no big difference if you will edit your videos for yourself or your friends. But if you are filming videos for your local tv, they will not accept NTSC (30 or 60 fps)

 

[mscottc]

There are some other issues regarding time standards in NTSC (60 fields/30 frames per second) and PAL/SECAM (50/25) legacies. Yes, most of them are tied to the history of the electric frequencies. One example is lighting. When an NTSC crew shoots under 50 cycle lights or visa versa, one often gets flicker due to the non matched lighting. Additionally, down conversion to older legacy sets becomes very difficult when crossing temporal standards.

That being said, most modern editing and production systems can mix and match frame rates between standards.

Regarding the use of 24 frames per second in NTSC based regions; First understand that 24 FPS was a film based development. When American broadcasters needed transmit films, they realized that 24 frames can be converted into 60 fields with a mechanism called "pulldown" where 1 frame is converted to 3 fields, the next is converted to 2 fields, etc so the rates eventually match up. There are several pulldown cadences that all eventually delver the same results, 24 frames become 60 fields. The PAL folks just sped up their 24fps films to 25 frames or 50 fields per second for TV broadcast.

So now 24P video is often considered a "Universal Mastering" format. It is very easily converted to all video standards with very little temporal interpolation. NTSC based communities add pulldown to broadcast in 30 frames per second, and PAL just convert to 25 fps (though I'm not sure what the preferred procedure is, as I'm an American TV editor, not European).

 

[RussAdams]

Hi Ian,

Thank you for the background. That helps a lot in understanding what it's all about.

But is there a practical impact to me by buying one over the other? I mean, that MP4 thing being at different frame rates really threw me off! LOL. How did COMPUTERS get into this sad story?

How can I mess myself up with a PAL/NTSC mis-match?

Thanks!

 

[RussAdams]

Hi Secam,

There will be no big difference if you will edit your videos for yourself or your friends. But if you are filming videos for your local tv, they will not accept NTSC (30 or 60 fps)

Well, THAT's not likely to be a problem. Hah. If I happen to film some news event, plane crash?, Tsunami in Dublin?, I bet the local news will figure out a way to get it on the air.

What happens if I burn the video to DVD? Will an NTSC player be able to play a PAL frame rate?

That would be the most likely scenerio that I can see could cause me a problem... when I went to try to share a video.

Russ

 

[RussAdams]

Thanks mscottc!

I think I'm taking two points away:

1. I might (or will) run into night time/low light problems once I get back to the states? I.e. I will experience flickering at video capture time under US artificial lighting?

2. Would I be safer using the 25fps setting then over the 50fps? I.e. is it easier to convert 25 to the universal 24 than 50 to 24? Or is this unnecessary and I can just use software to directly go between the settings? Can 50fps be converted to 60fps or does it have to go down to 24fps?

Russ

There are some other issues regarding time standards in NTSC (60 fields/30 frames per second) and PAL/SECAM (50/25) legacies. Yes, most of them are tied to the history of the electric frequencies. One example is lighting. When an NTSC crew shoots under 50 cycle lights or visa versa, one often gets flicker due to the non matched lighting. Additionally, down conversion to older legacy sets becomes very difficult when crossing temporal standards.

That being said, most modern editing and production systems can mix and match frame rates between standards.

Regarding the use of 24 frames per second in NTSC based regions; First understand that 24 FPS was a film based development. When American broadcasters needed transmit films, they realized that 24 frames can be converted into 60 fields with a mechanism called "pulldown" where 1 frame is converted to 3 fields, the next is converted to 2 fields, etc so the rates eventually match up. There are several pulldown cadences that all eventually delver the same results, 24 frames become 60 fields. The PAL folks just sped up their 24fps films to 25 frames or 50 fields per second for TV broadcast.

So now 24P video is often considered a "Universal Mastering" format. It is very easily converted to all video standards with very little temporal interpolation. NTSC based communities add pulldown to broadcast in 30 frames per second, and PAL just convert to 25 fps (though I'm not sure what the preferred procedure is, as I'm an American TV editor, not European).

 

[mscottc]

Russ,

I'm really not sure what the answer is. What sort of mifs me is why Sony isn't allowing the user to select frame rates as needed. I can't see any need for different hardware, just adding the choice in firmware.

For me the answer is easy, I'm in the USA, and most of my photography and video with be here, so I'm NTSC based all the way.

Good luck on whichever way you decide to go.

Scott

 

[IanML]

I think I'm taking two points away:

1. I might (or will) run into night time/low light problems once I get back to the states? I.e. I will experience flickering at video capture time under US artificial lighting?

My camcorder is "NTSC", that is, it records 60/30, and I have noticed no problem under 50Hz lighting.

2. Would I be safer using the 25fps setting then over the 50fps? I.e. is it easier to convert 25 to the universal 24 than 50 to 24? Or is this unnecessary and I can just use software to directly go between the settings? Can 50fps be converted to 60fps or does it have to go down to 24fps?

I have found no problem in making DVDs from 25fps analog material to "NTSC" standard. It played on my "PAL" tv, and recipient in the US said it was fine. As I recall, the software was ULead, but I'm sure the rival brands achieve similar results.

You may find some DVD players are less tolerant, but playing DVDs through a computer doesn't seem to present any problems as regards different frame rates - the graphics cards are more than capable of coping.

I have tried making 60Hz video files from 50 Hz digital material using Sony Vegas. That worked ok, and played well on my "PAL" TV. I didn't send that to the US, but there's no reason why it shouldn't have been ok.

--
Ian

 

[Corkcampbell]

your camera (onto TV, for example), which no one does. I work in China, but travel in the UK and USA (my home), so I have cameras purchased in the NTSC and PAL countries (even including a Flip) such as the Panasonic G series and a Sony A33, just ordered the A77, and my video from whatever camera goes into iMovie and then is made into whatever is necessary for YouTube, Quicktime, eMail, whatever. I also have Windows machines (Vista and 7) and it's the same situation, although I prefer the Mac for video. I send my videos everywhere and there is no problem.

 

[GodSpeaks]

I've ordered an A77 in Dublin, Ireland, which should arrive next Tuesday. But, I'm a Yank, and will be returning to the US sometime next year.

The EU have placed a 30 minute recording limit on video. Exceed that limit and you get to pay extra taxes because the device gets put into a different category.

I would check to see if that EU limit applies to cameras bought in Dublin. If it does, then you would need to decide if such a recording limit would be an issue for you.

--

The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'

• Rayna Butler

 

[Krislord]

I've ordered an A77 in Dublin, Ireland, which should arrive next Tuesday. But, I'm a Yank, and will be returning to the US sometime next year.

The EU have placed a 30 minute recording limit on video. Exceed that limit and you get to pay extra taxes because the device gets put into a different category.

I would check to see if that EU limit applies to cameras bought in Dublin. If it does, then you would need to decide if such a recording limit would be an issue for you.

--

The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'

• Rayna Butler

This would apply to cameras purchased in Dublin as Ireland is a member of the EU.

 

[Anastigmat]

What it means is that if you play the video directly from the camera, it would only play on NTSC or PAL TV sets, depending on the camera. if you are a yank, and are planning to go back, then pick NTSC, which is the system used in the states. If you intend to stay in Europe for the foreseeable future, then pick PAL.

WHen you upload the video to your computer and convert them to DVD, the software can encode it in either PAL or NTSC formats. There are some DVD players that can play both PAL and NTSC DVDs and they can hook up to either a PAL or NTSC tv.

 

[Denis247]

I heard that it is more common for PAL players to also be able to play NTSC, than US NTSC players able to play PAL. Found this while doing research on US/UK Sony BR players.

What it means is that if you play the video directly from the camera, it would only play on NTSC or PAL TV sets, depending on the camera. if you are a yank, and are planning to go back, then pick NTSC, which is the system used in the states. If you intend to stay in Europe for the foreseeable future, then pick PAL.

WHen you upload the video to your computer and convert them to DVD, the software can encode it in either PAL or NTSC formats. There are some DVD players that can play both PAL and NTSC DVDs and they can hook up to either a PAL or NTSC tv.

 

[Anastigmat]

The best bet is to buy a multi-system DVD player. These players can handle both types of DVD disk formats, and they can send their signal to either NTSC or PAL TV sets. An addtional benefit is that they can play DVDs from more than one region.

I heard that it is more common for PAL players to also be able to play NTSC, than US NTSC players able to play PAL. Found this while doing research on US/UK Sony BR players.

What it means is that if you play the video directly from the camera, it would only play on NTSC or PAL TV sets, depending on the camera. if you are a yank, and are planning to go back, then pick NTSC, which is the system used in the states. If you intend to stay in Europe for the foreseeable future, then pick PAL.

WHen you upload the video to your computer and convert them to DVD, the software can encode it in either PAL or NTSC formats. There are some DVD players that can play both PAL and NTSC DVDs and they can hook up to either a PAL or NTSC tv.

 

[Denis247]

Thats true for DVD players, and I hacked mine myself for multiregion playback of region 1 - 6 DVD disks, but not for Bluray. You would need a US Bluray player for US coded Blurays. But Bluray aside, I found UK DVD (multiregion) players able to playback NTSC, but US sourced NTSC players couldn't handle PAL. I think the problem was hardware-related.

The best bet is to buy a multi-system DVD player. These players can handle both types of DVD disk formats, and they can send their signal to either NTSC or PAL TV sets. An addtional benefit is that they can play DVDs from more than one region.

I heard that it is more common for PAL players to also be able to play NTSC, than US NTSC players able to play PAL. Found this while doing research on US/UK Sony BR players.

What it means is that if you play the video directly from the camera, it would only play on NTSC or PAL TV sets, depending on the camera. if you are a yank, and are planning to go back, then pick NTSC, which is the system used in the states. If you intend to stay in Europe for the foreseeable future, then pick PAL.

WHen you upload the video to your computer and convert them to DVD, the software can encode it in either PAL or NTSC formats. There are some DVD players that can play both PAL and NTSC DVDs and they can hook up to either a PAL or NTSC tv.

 

[RussAdams]

The EU have placed a 30 minute recording limit on video. Exceed that limit and you get to pay extra taxes because the device gets put into a different category.

I would check to see if that EU limit applies to cameras bought in Dublin. If it does, then you would need to decide if such a recording limit would be an issue for you.

This limit exists on the US version too. From the A77 manual page 230:

"The maximum continuous recording time is 29 minutes."

So nothing to worry about there.

Thanks for speaking up though!

Russ

 

[awmawm]

Unless you plan to feed a video directly from the camera to NTSC TVs, it is not a big issue since you can encode a video clip/project on your computer so that it will play on PAL or NTSC equipment. Should you ever plan to sell the a77 down the road, it will be easier to sell a U.S. model in your home country. Also, while you wait until next year, Sony has more time to work out all the kinks and you will likely not pay the full suggested retail price.

 

[RussAdams]

Yes.

Two valid points.

PAL v NTSC is going to be a rather minor issue with re-selling in the states. Just the fact that it's from Europe will be a harder hit on re-sale.

Direct connect to TV I was aware of, and since I've never connected a camera to a TV I don't think it's going to make much difference to me. YMMV.

And you will always pay a premium for buying early. That's a given. Wait until the A99/A900 is out and I'm sure the A77 prices will drop. I'm willing to pay the premium for having it now rather than wait until next year.

So it's sounding like NTSC/PAL differences are not going to be a big deal.

Thanks !

Russ

Unless you plan to feed a video directly from the camera to NTSC TVs, it is not a big issue since you can encode a video clip/project on your computer so that it will play on PAL or NTSC equipment. Should you ever plan to sell the a77 down the road, it will be easier to sell a U.S. model in your home country. Also, while you wait until next year, Sony has more time to work out all the kinks and you will likely not pay the full suggested retail price.

 

[RussAdams]

Thanks Anastigmat!

This is sounding pretty good. I don't think NTSC v PAL is going to be an issue for me.

Russ