Is the a6300 a stop gap?

Steve59924

Member
Messages
25
Reaction score
8
Location
UK
I can't help thinking the a6300 is a stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS and touch screen focus. It doesn't add anything new just upgrades to existing features, e.g. even more AF points, 4K video (with rolling shutter!), 14 bit instead of 12 bit lossy compressed RAW (come on Sony give us lossless), a degree of weather proofing, better EVF etc, etc. But it has the same haphazard button layout and that fiddly cheap compass dial on the rear, I would have liked to see a thumb wheel under the shutter button to make working in manual easier and the buttons bigger for easier use with gloves on.
 
I can't help thinking the a6300 is a stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS and touch screen focus. It doesn't add anything new just upgrades to existing features, e.g. even more AF points, 4K video (with rolling shutter!), 14 bit instead of 12 bit lossy compressed RAW (come on Sony give us lossless), a degree of weather proofing, better EVF etc, etc. But it has the same haphazard button layout and that fiddly cheap compass dial on the rear, I would have liked to see a thumb wheel under the shutter button to make working in manual easier and the buttons bigger for easier use with gloves on.
With gloves on? Where are you coming from? The APSC / NEX is a small camera. You want it with large buttons for gloves?

Stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS?

IBIS will be a very large camera; and why do you wear gloves to feel buttons that are undersized?

Touch screen with gloves?

Troll

JAW
 
And it begins, when will Sony announce the A7000....

Well, I suppose if they are already projecting next year's super bowl winner, why not the next Sony APS-C camera
 
I can't help thinking the a6300 is a stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS and touch screen focus. It doesn't add anything new just upgrades to existing features, e.g. even more AF points, 4K video (with rolling shutter!), 14 bit instead of 12 bit lossy compressed RAW (come on Sony give us lossless), a degree of weather proofing, better EVF etc, etc. But it has the same haphazard button layout and that fiddly cheap compass dial on the rear, I would have liked to see a thumb wheel under the shutter button to make working in manual easier and the buttons bigger for easier use with gloves on.
I do hope Sony is paying attention to the A6300 feedback. Lack of IBIS is a very dominant thread. Worry that the 14-bit RAW is lossey compression is another worry that I hear over and over. And touch screen is another.

I certainly hope there are plenty of "I told you it needed IBIS!" comments happening in the Sony Marketing Group. And those that said it wasn't needed are somewhere in hiding.

And if there is a follow on A7000 that corrects these short comings, its a rather cruel joke to only announce the A6300 and not the other one too. Just think how many unhappy campers it will produce among those that buy the A6300 now only to discover after they get it that the more desired A7000 is finally announced?
 
I can't help thinking the a6300 is a stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS and touch screen focus. It doesn't add anything new just upgrades to existing features, e.g. even more AF points, 4K video (with rolling shutter!), 14 bit instead of 12 bit lossy compressed RAW (come on Sony give us lossless), a degree of weather proofing, better EVF etc, etc. But it has the same haphazard button layout and that fiddly cheap compass dial on the rear, I would have liked to see a thumb wheel under the shutter button to make working in manual easier and the buttons bigger for easier use with gloves on.
I do hope Sony is paying attention to the A6300 feedback. Lack of IBIS is a very dominant thread. Worry that the 14-bit RAW is lossey compression is another worry that I hear over and over. And touch screen is another.
The only feedback that Sony is going to really listen for is reports of sales volume for the new 6300. And I would expect nothing less.

It's anecdotal evidence at this point, but judging from the threads about people preordering 2 minutes after it was available, sales might be very good!
I certainly hope there are plenty of "I told you it needed IBIS!" comments happening in the Sony Marketing Group. And those that said it wasn't needed are somewhere in hiding.

And if there is a follow on A7000 that corrects these short comings, its a rather cruel joke to only announce the A6300 and not the other one too. Just think how many unhappy campers it will produce among those that buy the A6300 now only to discover after they get it that the more desired A7000 is finally announced?
I bought my 6000 in November 2014 and will look hard at the reviews that come out over the next few months before buying a second body. Let's give it time before we assume nobody is going to buy it because it doesn't have IBIS and a touch screen.
 
I certainly hope there are plenty of "I told you it needed IBIS!" comments happening in the Sony Marketing Group. And those that said it wasn't needed are somewhere in hiding.
As a really old Japanese tech company, I wonder if the dissenters in the group that considered IBIS and touchscreens crucial really had the ability to say much, if anything at all. If the lead engineers or those in the design team had ruled it out in the early stages, then I get the feeling that it just wasn't going to be added at any stage due to an entrenched corporate culture.
 
I can't help thinking the a6300 is a stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS and touch screen focus. It doesn't add anything new just upgrades to existing features, e.g. even more AF points, 4K video (with rolling shutter!), 14 bit instead of 12 bit lossy compressed RAW (come on Sony give us lossless), a degree of weather proofing, better EVF etc, etc.
You say stop gap, I say upgrade ...
But it has the same haphazard button layout and that fiddly cheap compass dial on the rear, I would have liked to see a thumb wheel under the shutter button to make working in manual easier and the buttons bigger for easier use with gloves on.
I suspect that if there's going to be a "higher end" APS-C camera coming, then it's not a NEX-7 upgrade, either; probably a new design that offers something that they can justify charging significantly more than $1000 for; possibly EVF on top, like A7, possibly bigger body for use with larger lenses. But that's just guessing; it could be that the A6300 is simply the top of the line for APS-C, until the next upgrade cycle.

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
I can't help thinking the a6300 is a stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS and touch screen focus. It doesn't add anything new just upgrades to existing features, e.g. even more AF points, 4K video (with rolling shutter!), 14 bit instead of 12 bit lossy compressed RAW (come on Sony give us lossless), a degree of weather proofing, better EVF etc, etc. But it has the same haphazard button layout and that fiddly cheap compass dial on the rear, I would have liked to see a thumb wheel under the shutter button to make working in manual easier and the buttons bigger for easier use with gloves on.
If it's a stopgap, it'll more likely be a stopgap before some of the the A6300's key features (full-sensor 4k especially) are added to an A7II replacement.

An interesting possibility might be if the new A6300 sensor manufacturing process is going through a "shakedown" with that product, and then an A7II replacement will be the first FF sensor on that new process.

There was a chipworks report back in 2012 indicating that Sony's sensors were on a 180nm manufacturing process. That's really old and happens to be before most silicon manufacturers moved to copper-based processes.

Sony is announcing a sensor that has copper as a component in the new manufacturing process about 2 years after they bought a fab from Renesas that was producing 45nm copper SOI silicon for Nintendo.

I suspect we're seeing one of the first products to come out of that former Renesas fab.

Edit: https://www.chipworks.com/about-chipworks/overview/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-part-i-nikon-vs-sony - Note that this mentions Renesas, however note that the Renesas facility Sony purchased was making 45nm copper SOI GPUs for Nintendo, not 250nm CMOS imaging sensors.
 
Last edited:
IIRC, Sony documents show the A6x00 was meant to be released a year ago. There were a bunch of overheating issues so they delayed. Since they didn't add IS, touchscreen, better control layout, in the extra time so I doubt they will until the next iteration in 2 years. Even then they need something like IS to separate the two systems. Not much of a price difference between an open box A7II and A6300 and the A7II can shoot at 1 second shutter speed hand held with any lens. The Sony IS lenses are better stabilized on the A7II too.
 
It's an evolution, not a revolution. It shows a maturing of the sector, like smartphones etc.

Additional features very much depend on competition. Is their a superior camera ? That's why the A6000 hung around so long, they nailed it from the get go. Next model comes with a touch screen and other bits and pieces. Model after that with IBIS perhaps etc Unless another manufacturer steps up to the plate and releases something evolutionary. Canon/Nikon seem stuck in a rut. Fuji, Olympus doing some nice stuff as is Sony.
 
It's an evolution, not a revolution. It shows a maturing of the sector, like smartphones etc.

Additional features very much depend on competition. Is their a superior camera ? That's why the A6000 hung around so long, they nailed it from the get go. Next model comes with a touch screen and other bits and pieces. Model after that with IBIS perhaps etc Unless another manufacturer steps up to the plate and releases something evolutionary. Canon/Nikon seem stuck in a rut. Fuji, Olympus doing some nice stuff as is Sony.
Here's a copy/paste of a post I made in the SAR comments section:

Ah, found the original Chipworks report. It talks about the D800 (and also original A7R sensor) using 180nm process -https://www.chipworks.com/abou...

This is the important one - that's a cross-section of the D800/A7R image sensor.


In that image, the sites are 320 pixels wide - measuring from wiring center to wiring center. So 320 pixels, 4750 nm per site = 14.84 nm/pixel.

Each wiring area appears to be 120 pixels wide (I'm measuring 116 for one and 126 for the other, so 120 average is close enough), and half of each wiring area is eating from the photosite. So of 320 pixels in width (4750nm), 120 (1781nm) are eaten by wiring. That's almost 40% alone.

What we don't know is if the wiring is only consuming area in one dimension or two. So best case the A7R is losing 40% of its area to wiring, worst case (2 dimensions) it's losing 60% of its area to wiring.

Let's assume the A6000 is on the same manufacturing process. So we'll lose the same amount of sensor area per site (1781nm) to wiring. But our sites are only 3900 nm apart. (I calculated 3900, but everyone else says 3800... I'll use 3800 for now.)

So if the A6000 is on the same 180nm process, we are losing 1781nm to wiring out of 3900 per site. So 46% lost for best-case (1D) and almost 70% if that loss is 2-d. (this seems to be TOO much... indicating that without a process update, 24MP APS-C was probably already pushing things too far). In terms of usable area percentage that's somewhere between 30 and 54%

So if Sony moves to 45nm process (assuming that Renesas fab they bought is in play), and the wiring reduces proportional to the process dimensions, they go down to 1781*(45/180) loss per site = 445nm per site lost. For our 1-D best case, this means 11% area lost, for 2-D it's 22% lost. That translates to between 78 and 89% area usage efficiency.

So from 30% to 78% - a bit more than a stop of gain. From 54 to 89% a bit less.

Also, that region above the photodiode is probably losing some light, this region is going to be thinner, likely on the order of 1/4 as thick as it was before.

So a full stop increase in signal to the sensor is feasible if the former Renesas fab that was making Nintendo Wii U chips is being used to make the A6300 sensor.

Also means the best improvement BSI would provide beyond this would be eliminating the last 10-20% of area wastage.

Of course, this all assumes that they're using the former Renesas 45nm facility at its full 45nm capability. They could be somewhere in between - but it's clear from Chipworks' dissection of the A7R/D8000 sensor that a process shrink below 180nm could result in some significant gains, and the benefit of Sony being so far behind the CPU industry means that if they can indeed repurpose a facility that made CPUs/GPUs to making sensors in 2 years, they're able to do a massive technology leap and still be years behind the CPU/GPU industry. (Imaging sensors are much larger than CPUs/GPUs and as a result are going to have more yield challenges - so it makes sense the imaging industry stays well behind the CPU/GPU industry in terms of process technology.)

An interesting aspect, again assuming that it's that Renesas facility - they purchased a facility using an SOI process. It might not be possible for this facility to manufacture BSI sensors. Who knows how SOI substrates would interact with BSI... I'm assuming they wouldn't play nice together.

------------------------------------------------

Note that my comments regarding that Renesas facility are based on some other things I posted, backed by:

http://www.kitguru.net/components/g...may-leave-nintendo-wii-u-without-edram-cache/ - Indicates that a facility Sony bought for sensor production was previously making the Latte GPU for the Wii U. The CPU is made at IBM Fishkill on 45nm copper SOI, the GPU is apparently made locally on an identical or at least very similar process - 45nm copper SOI

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2014/01/sony-buys-12-inch-renesas-fab-to-expand.html (mentions 40-45nm process)

A transition from 180nm to 45nm manufacturing process would indeed be revolutionary for high-density sensors. This seems like an extreme leap, but keep in mind Canon was in the process of moving from 500nm (all FF sensors up to and including 5dIII) to 180nm (some of their P&S sensors in 2012) - We don't have any more recent info than 2012 that I can easily find for Canon, but it also indicates the imaging industry doesn't do process changes often (Canon was on 500nm for FF for a decade) - likely only transitioning when it becomes highly beneficial. 24MP was right on the edge where BSI was beneficial for APS-C, but BSI is expensive and it may have been less expensive to give that "new" 45nm fab a shakedown with its first APS-C sensor. As outlined above - 45nm would give most of the improvements of BSI without actually using BSI for a sensor of the A6300's density.
 
And it begins, when will Sony announce the A7000....

Well, I suppose if they are already projecting next year's super bowl winner, why not the next Sony APS-C camera
Ditto

sign.jpg
 
I can't help thinking the a6300 is a stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS and touch screen focus. It doesn't add anything new just upgrades to existing features, e.g. even more AF points, 4K video (with rolling shutter!), 14 bit instead of 12 bit lossy compressed RAW (come on Sony give us lossless), a degree of weather proofing, better EVF etc, etc. But it has the same haphazard button layout and that fiddly cheap compass dial on the rear, I would have liked to see a thumb wheel under the shutter button to make working in manual easier and the buttons bigger for easier use with gloves on.
With gloves on? Where are you coming from? The APSC / NEX is a small camera. You want it with large buttons for gloves?
Some of us haven't retired to Florida or Arizona yet, so being able to use a camera with gloves is pretty much a requirement.
Stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS?
There will be an APS-C body with IBIS at some point. When, I don't know, but to have fast PDAF with the a-mount adapters without IBIS is kind of stupid. I personally like the smaller body without IBIS, but I don't think Sony can go without implementing IBIS.

The a6300 does seem like to me it will be short lived and replaced with a newer body pretty quickly, sort of like the a5000/a5100 releases. I think that's why it is priced at US $1000 at introduction. It's just there to get people used to the idea of a more expensive APS-C, without the risk of providing a new body with a more advanced sensor and IBIS. That would be too much a risk for the new camera to maybe fail at that price point, so Sony puts out the a6300 to set the precedent.
IBIS will be a very large camera; and why do you wear gloves to feel buttons that are undersized?
The buttons could be raised off the body which would help a lot. The AEL button is ok with the gloves I use, but the other buttons are a bit of a pain to find and hit.
Touch screen with gloves?
I've been using these gloves with my smartphone for a couple of winters now. I only have to take of my glove off for the fingerprint scanner. I think these types of gloves have been mainstream for about four or five years now.

http://www.amazon.com/Head-Multi-Sport-Gloves-SensaTEC-Black/dp/B005QUDG8M
  • SensaTec interacts with touch screen devices
  • Stretch Shell for Maximum Dexterity
  • Silicone Rubber Palm for Improved Grip
  • Ribbed Cuff, Gusseted Fingers
  • Perfect for the cool weather athlete
Thank you
Russell
 
Last edited:
I can't help thinking the a6300 is a stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS and touch screen focus. It doesn't add anything new just upgrades to existing features, e.g. even more AF points, 4K video (with rolling shutter!), 14 bit instead of 12 bit lossy compressed RAW (come on Sony give us lossless), a degree of weather proofing, better EVF etc, etc. But it has the same haphazard button layout and that fiddly cheap compass dial on the rear, I would have liked to see a thumb wheel under the shutter button to make working in manual easier and the buttons bigger for easier use with gloves on.
New metal body, new EVF, new sensor, new AF, new video capabilities, high frame rate, full sensor readout and so on, yet you say it doesn't add anything new. Perhaps you need to re read the specs?

Rolling shutter looks great in 4k, freeze the rally car video, the wheel spokes are perfectly straight.
 
It's anecdotal evidence at this point, but judging from the threads about people preordering 2 minutes after it was available, sales might be very good.
There's always people with premature ejac... err ejection of money from wallet...

Sucker born every minute and all that other clever stuff Tom Waits put into his lyrics...

.

Pre-ordering a camera is usually the last thing you want to do, since there are no solid reviews and nobody knows for sure how the mix of present and missing specs are going to translate to the actual camera.

The Z5 *should* have had the best phone camera by far, but it turned out to have smudging issues and other shortcomings that made it *maybe* equal to S6 and iPhone6, with some claiming it was much worse...
 
Last edited:
Stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS?
IBIS will be a very large camera; and why do you wear gloves to feel buttons that are undersized?

Touch screen with gloves?

Troll

JAW
That's not fair to OP. The OMD EM5 Mark II is a smallish camera with excellent IBIS. There's no reason Sony couldn't do a similar setup. Bigger than the a6xxx? Maybe. But not by much.

And they do make touchscreen gloves. I have a pair. They're swell.
 
I can't help thinking the a6300 is a stop gap until the a7000 with IBIS and touch screen focus. It doesn't add anything new just upgrades to existing features, e.g. even more AF points, 4K video (with rolling shutter!), 14 bit instead of 12 bit lossy compressed RAW (come on Sony give us lossless), a degree of weather proofing, better EVF etc, etc. But it has the same haphazard button layout and that fiddly cheap compass dial on the rear, I would have liked to see a thumb wheel under the shutter button to make working in manual easier and the buttons bigger for easier use with gloves on.
IMO it was released partly due to the Xpro2 announcement and people have been waiting forever for the A6000 successor.

They probably have too many A6000 frames and cases sitting around they need to dump while making a profit before the A7000 is released which will be a totally new design.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top