Z8 focus confusion

[bwana]

I have setup this camera with back button focus. Ihave also set on of the buttons on the from to 3D focus. The focus area is set to a small square which i can move around the frame with the joystick. Set to AF-S, pressing the back btn focus results in a bunch of little green squares somewhere in the frame that the camera thinks i want-never over the little red box. Pressing the 3D focus button uses the the little red square which promptly turns green.

This behavior does not change if set to AF-C-the only change is the little green squares are constantly active (consistent with continuous focus behavior). Simmilarly, 3D focus results in the red square turning green and staying on the same subject where it was when i pressed the button.

Subject detection makes no difference.

Using firmware 3.01

Can someone tell me how the camera is deciding to light up the little green squares when in AF-S when i back button focus and how it picks the subject?

 

[Thom Hogan]

Something is confused here. My best guess is that you've set AF-area mode to Auto area when in AF S, not sure what you're in when you've in AF C, but multiple boxes again suggests Auto area. Moreover, it's unclear why you're even in AF S if you're trying to use Back Button and Hybrid Button focus, as you seem to suggest you are trying to do.

Proper setup would be:

• #A6 to AF-ON only
• #F2 AF-ON button to AF-ON
• Focus mode to AF C

That gives you Back Button focus with your currently selected AF-area mode.

If you then:

• #F2 Fn1 to AF-ON+AF-area mode > 3D tracking

You can then start focus with either AF-ON or Fn1. Hybrid Button really only works if you start with AF-ON and transfer to Fn1 in this instance.

 

[lokatz]

"on the [???] from [???] to 3D focus"? Mind being a little more specific?

 

[bwana]

Thank you for your replies. here are snapshots of the relevant settings:

 

[bwana]

so from the above images, i dont know how to properly communicate with words but I would say that I have back button focus w auto focus area mode assigned to the button on the back of the camera and on the front of the camera I have auto focus with 3D assigned to the upper button.

The shutter button only releases the shutter and does not engage focus.

I guess I could refine my question as 'why does auto focus area mode pick some random thing but 3D always uses the little red box?'

 

[bwana]

As for handoff, I dont know a circumstance that would benefit from using that. This video seems to try to explain what I am seeing:

He refers to an AF override button but I dont understand/know what that is.

 

[jthomas39]

From the photo of your f2 settings:

You have AF-On=Only, so the half press shutter doesn't AF -- good.

The F1 is good. It can be used for an autofocus handoff to 3D, or as an alternate AF-On directly choosing 3D instead of your current AF mode.

But the AF-On button should be set to "AF-ON", not "Auto Area+AF-ON". That way, you can pick any of the AF box sizes, like Wide Area Small or Wide Area Large, or the custom sized C1 or C2 AF boxes. Your AF-On setting will override the i-menu AF choice, which isn't helpful.

I rarely use Auto Area AF. I want to limit the AF to smaller areas in the scene. Steve Perry at backcountrygallery.com likes Auto Area for bird detect shooting, but I think that's at least partly due to his expert choosing of a low distraction background, for a better composition and reliable autofocus. For me, Auto Area is just too unpredictable.

So change AF-On to be the standard "AF-ON". Now you can use the i-menu or other methods to pick an appropriate autofocus box size. If the subject is actively moving around the scene, you can hand off a detected subject by releasing AF-On and immediately pressing F1 to track it in 3D.

 

[jthomas39]

As for handoff, I dont know a circumstance that would benefit from using that. This video seems to try to explain what I am seeing:

He refers to an AF override button but I don't understand/know what that is.

The override would be your F1.

The Steve Perry video is very useful, discussing all the aspects of the 3D handoff methods. But he needs some more example footage to see how it works.

This Hudson Henry video from a few years ago showed my how this could be easy and effective. The link starts at 5:40 for the 3D tracking demos. (The DPR embedded video won't jump to the middle, so either right click and open in a new tab or navigate to 5:40 in the video.) See in the camera's view at the top center, when he starts with Wide-L and then presses the override control to hand off -- it shows 3D now.

~~~

On my Z6 iii, I have the AF-ON+3D set to my DISP button, instead of your F1 button, or Hudson's lens Fn button. The method is the same.

I took the camera to a local crit bike race. To pick out a particular rider from the front pack, I set AF-area mode to C1 custom sized box, which I had set to a tall, narrow AF box shape. And set Subject detect to People.

Now, when I hold AF-On, and pick out the rider I want to track, it finds the rider's face, with the AF box shrinking to his face or eye. So I know it's finding this subject. Now I let go the AF-On button, and press my 3D button within a half second or so. The same subject transfers to 3D tracking, following all over the frame.

If I just kept using the C1 AF box, I'd have to keep that box centered on this rider, which isn't easy as they go flying by me.

 

[Nebido]

From the photo of your f2 settings:

You have AF-On=Only, so the half press shutter doesn't AF -- good.

The F1 is good. It can be used for an autofocus handoff to 3D, or as an alternate AF-On directly choosing 3D instead of your current AF mode.

But the AF-On button should be set to "AF-ON", not "Auto Area+AF-ON". That way, you can pick any of the AF box sizes, like Wide Area Small or Wide Area Large, or the custom sized C1 or C2 AF boxes. Your AF-On setting will override the i-menu AF choice, which isn't helpful.

I rarely use Auto Area AF. I want to limit the AF to smaller areas in the scene. Steve Perry at backcountrygallery.com likes Auto Area for bird detect shooting, but I think that's at least partly due to his expert choosing of a low distraction background, for a better composition and reliable autofocus. For me, Auto Area is just too unpredictable.

So change AF-On to be the standard "AF-ON". Now you can use the i-menu or other methods to pick an appropriate autofocus box size. If the subject is actively moving around the scene, you can hand off a detected subject by releasing AF-On and immediately pressing F1 to track it in 3D.

In this context, I would also like to refer you to a very useful video by Steve Perry.



The "Cycle AF Area" feature was introduced with Nikon Z8 firmware 2.0 and Nikon Z9 firmware 5.0, and it has completely overhauled the way of working with AF areas.

This allows you to switch between AF fields with a simple push of a button, for example with the video button, which is extremely fast and intuitive, especially if you have previously limited the AF fields to those that are essential for you.

Steve Perry's video guides are highly recommended and helpful, and for me personally, they are much more to the point than Hudson Henry's guides, which are also good, but he digresses more often, unnecessarily prolonging many of his video guides.

I studied Steve Perry's guides for the Z8/Z9, among other things, weeks before purchasing my Z8 and was able to use the Z8 at a high level right away.

Immediately after purchasing the Z8 body, I had an important event to photograph with it and was already so familiar with the essential features and optimal configuration that I had the camera under control right away.

It helped me a lot, especially as a orientation for finding the optimal camera configuration for me.

Cycle AF on the video button, or another button depending on your preference, is one of these very helpful and effective configurations that allows extremely fast access/fast switch to the AF boxes used.

____

Another Steve Perry tip that I also found extremely helpful and effective is a Wide Area Custom Box with dimensions of 1x1 for very precise subject detection.

This essentially gives you an AF box the same size as a Single Point AF, with the difference that this one works as a Wide Area Box with subject detection, which isn't the case with the classic Single Point AF box.

In difficult, cluttered situations or scenes, you can use it to apply subject/face/eye recognition/detection very precisely and then continue working in 3D via handoff.

It helped me a lot with subject recognition when photographing events with multiple people, many subjects, faces, and eyes.

___

The last really good tip, at least if you do action/wildlife/sports photography frequently, is the "Emergency Action Button".

One of the things that hasn't really evolved with new technology is the ability to react incredibly quickly to significant need of changes in shutter speed.

For example, if I'm photographing a bird that's moving very little, and I'm working with shutter speeds appropriate for the low movement rate to keep my ISO low, and suddenly action occurs, then adjusting the shutter settings via the dial(s) usually takes far too long.

With this method, via the Recall Shooting function, you have your action settings for BiF shots at the touch of a button.

 

[jimdelves]

From the photo of your f2 settings:

You have AF-On=Only, so the half press shutter doesn't AF -- good.

The F1 is good. It can be used for an autofocus handoff to 3D, or as an alternate AF-On directly choosing 3D instead of your current AF mode.

But the AF-On button should be set to "AF-ON", not "Auto Area+AF-ON". That way, you can pick any of the AF box sizes, like Wide Area Small or Wide Area Large, or the custom sized C1 or C2 AF boxes. Your AF-On setting will override the i-menu AF choice, which isn't helpful.

I rarely use Auto Area AF. I want to limit the AF to smaller areas in the scene. Steve Perry at backcountrygallery.com likes Auto Area for bird detect shooting, but I think that's at least partly due to his expert choosing of a low distraction background, for a better composition and reliable autofocus. For me, Auto Area is just too unpredictable.

So change AF-On to be the standard "AF-ON". Now you can use the i-menu or other methods to pick an appropriate autofocus box size. If the subject is actively moving around the scene, you can hand off a detected subject by releasing AF-On and immediately pressing F1 to track it in 3D.

In this context, I would also like to refer you to a very useful video by Steve Perry.
The "Cycle AF Area" feature was introduced with Nikon Z8 firmware 2.0 and Nikon Z9 firmware 5.0, and it has completely overhauled the way of working with AF areas.

This allows you to switch between AF fields with a simple push of a button, for example with the video button, which is extremely fast and intuitive, especially if you have previously limited the AF fields to those that are essential for you.

Steve Perry's video guides are highly recommended and helpful, and for me personally, they are much more to the point than Hudson Henry's guides, which are also good, but he digresses more often, unnecessarily prolonging many of his video guides.

I studied Steve Perry's guides for the Z8/Z9, among other things, weeks before purchasing my Z8 and was able to use the Z8 at a high level right away.

Immediately after purchasing the Z8 body, I had an important event to photograph with it and was already so familiar with the essential features and optimal configuration that I had the camera under control right away.

It helped me a lot, especially as a orientation for finding the optimal camera configuration for me.

Cycle AF on the video button, or another button depending on your preference, is one of these very helpful and effective configurations that allows extremely fast access/fast switch to the AF boxes used.

____

Another Steve Perry tip that I also found extremely helpful and effective is a Wide Area Custom Box with dimensions of 1x1 for very precise subject detection.

This essentially gives you an AF box the same size as a Single Point AF, with the difference that this one works as a Wide Area Box with subject detection, which isn't the case with the classic Single Point AF box.

In difficult, cluttered situations or scenes, you can use it to apply subject/face/eye recognition/detection very precisely and then continue working in 3D via handoff.

It helped me a lot with subject recognition when photographing events with multiple people, many subjects, faces, and eyes.

___

The last really good tip, at least if you do action/wildlife/sports photography frequently, is the "Emergency Action Button".

One of the things that hasn't really evolved with new technology is the ability to react incredibly quickly to significant need of changes in shutter speed.

For example, if I'm photographing a bird that's moving very little, and I'm working with shutter speeds appropriate for the low movement rate to keep my ISO low, and suddenly action occurs, then adjusting the shutter settings via the dial(s) usually takes far too long.

With this method, via the Recall Shooting function, you have your action settings for BiF shots at the touch of a button.

This is tremendously useful even for walking around shooting

 

[bwana]

Thank you all for your generous and helpful comments.

 

[Bill Ferris]

Auto area AF analyzes the scene and makes a guess as to what in the scene you want to photograph. I recommend using this mode with subject detect if the scene is populated by a variety of objects. Subject detect allows you to narrow the camera's attention to people, animals, cars, etc.

Similarly, while 3D gives you more control over which object in the frame the camera acquires focus on, it will track that subject within the frame.

The different AF box displays are indicators of the mode you're in. They show you to distinguish between the modes so, that you can visually confirm you're in the mode of your choice.

 

[Thom Hogan]

Thank you for your replies. here are snapshots of the relevant settings:

We also need #A7 to be set to Auto.

As others are telling you, you should probably set AF-ON button to just AF-ON. Set another button (red record video button is useful) to Cycle AF-area mode. Then you can choose what your normal (AF-ON button) is using on the fly. You haven't specified whether you're using AF/MF subject detection options, which intersects with all of this.

It sounds to me that you're trying to go from casual Automatic transmission car around town to Formula 1 racing car in one swoop. That's not conducive to learning how everything interacts.

1. Start with the way Nikon has configured things (shutter release does focus).
2. De-couple the shutter release (AF-ON button to AF-ON). Learn when to be on and off that button. Your basic Back Button focus.
3. Program a button to a faster way of changing the type of focus (Cycle AF-area mode). Experiment with Back Button focus using different AF-area modes.
4. Assign subject detection. Understand how that works. One thing that captures people by surprise is that focus subject detection can go outside the box you asked it to.
5. Then and only then experiment with Hybrid Button focus (handoff). Make sure #A7 is set to Auto and assign another button to AF-ON+AF-area mode for the mode you most likely need to override or handoff to.

So, speaking of handoff. Why do you do that? The most compelling case is that focus on a subject is found by a specific method (subject detection, small focus area, etc.), but you anticipate the subject moving. Handing off to 3D tracking would keep the current focus point (#A7 Auto persistence) but tell the camera to track that on movement. The AF-area mode you might have been in might or might not do a good job of that. The most typical problem is that you have subject detection on and as you pan with motion you end up with multiple subjects. Subject detection alone might switch to another subject, not the one you're following. 3D tracking typically follows the one you started with (though it can sometimes be fooled by two identically colored birds, for instance).

There are plenty of other reasons to use a Hybrid Focus approach. But that gets far too lengthy to discuss in a forum post.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies
bythom.com dslrbodies.com sansmirror.com zsystemuser.com

 

[bwana]

After a little experimentation, I have found that there are only two settings where the camera will lock on to a subject: Auto area (lots of little green boxes) and 3D. In these modes, the green box(es) will remain locked on to the subject. In all the other modes (point, small,etc,) I get a green box that stays fixed in the frame, even in AF-C. So AF-C does not seem useful for these other modes-the minute the camera strays from the subject, it refocuses,

For capturing things that might move in the frame (race cars, animals, etc) 3D seems most useful - is this correct? I dont know how useful auto area is because I cannot predict what it will lock on to. Even handoff does not seem to work reliably.

For example I have fn1 as 3d matrix, the AF on btn set to AF-ON only, and focus mode set set to auto area. When i focus on something with 3D, then release and then immediately press the btn with AF ON (for handoff), the little green boxes sometimes do not grab the subject under the box that 3D had.

 

[buildingsights]

Thank you for your replies. here are snapshots of the relevant settings:

We also need #A7 to be set to Auto.

As others are telling you, you should probably set AF-ON button to just AF-ON. Set another button (red record video button is useful) to Cycle AF-area mode. Then you can choose what your normal (AF-ON button) is using on the fly.

wouldn't it be better rather than to use, for ex., the 'red record video button', to use instead to use the 'Focus-mode button' which is not very customisable but designed (?) to be set to cycle AF-area mode and Focus mode?

 

[Nebido]

Thank you for your replies. here are snapshots of the relevant settings:

We also need #A7 to be set to Auto.

As others are telling you, you should probably set AF-ON button to just AF-ON. Set another button (red record video button is useful) to Cycle AF-area mode. Then you can choose what your normal (AF-ON button) is using on the fly.

wouldn't it be better rather than to use, for ex., the 'red record video button', to use instead to use the 'Focus-mode button' which is not very customisable but designed (?) to be set to cycle AF-area mode and Focus mode?

The main advantage of assigning Cycle AF to the video record button, for example, is that this method provides much faster access to AF Cycle.

In practice, this method is simply much faster and much more ergonomic.

Not only is the video record button in a much better position, but it also allows you to change the AF mode at the touch of a button.

The button designated for AF-Area mode on the Z8 is in an extremely inconvenient location, as you have to hold the lens with one hand.

At least as soon as you attach a substantial lens that requires hand support and you don't just use pancake lenses.

The other hand holds the camera, the camera grip, and is on the opposite side of the designated AF Area mode Cycle buttons on the Z8.

So you first have to reach down to the lower left side of the Z8 body to even reach the button, which means you have to take your hand off the lens, and then you still have to change the setting with the wheel after pressing the AF cycle button.

In contrast, the video record button is intuitively accessible, as it is located directly next to the shutter release and on the side of the right hand that is on the camera. In addition, you have instant access to the switch without having to use the control dial.

Z8 AF Area mode cyle button means =

Remove your hand from the lens to reach the AF Area mode button on the lower left side, adjust the AF Area mode with the control dial, return your hand to the lens...

AF Cycle with the Video Record Button = Instant switch to the next AF area mode (which can be narrowed down), without the need of changing your hand position or taking your hand off the lens.

Instant switch without wheel confirmation without having to take your eye off the viewfinder, your finger off the shutter release, or your hand off the lens.

Over time, you will know exactly how many times you need to press the video record button to get to a specific AF area mode.

Steve Perry explains it better than I can.

Starting at minute 1:00, he discusses the reasons for and advantages of this configuration.

 

[Pierre Lagarde]

After a little experimentation, I have found that there are only two settings where the camera will lock on to a subject: Auto area (lots of little green boxes) and 3D. In these modes, the green box(es) will remain locked on to the subject.

You can also have this behaviour with the Wide-xx options. As long as your subject is within the defined area. I use the Wide-C1 mode with kind of 10 units wide for 5 units high (may be different numbers with previous firmware versions) for very fast subjects I can still follow by eyes and want the focus to be faster on them (i.e. swallows) : Re: Training : follow swallows

I also have a specific Shooting menu bank with this Wide-C1 mode above, combined with high-light exposure, higher ISO limit and very fast shutter speed. On three other Shooting banks, I'm mainly using 3D Tracking mode with different speed/sensibility settings (one standard, one fast, one slow).

For capturing things that might move in the frame (race cars, animals, etc) 3D seems most useful - is this correct? I dont know how useful auto area is because I cannot predict what it will lock on to. Even handoff does not seem to work reliably.

For example I have fn1 as 3d matrix, the AF on btn set to AF-ON only, and focus mode set set to auto area. When i focus on something with 3D, then release and then immediately press the btn with AF ON (for handoff), the little green boxes sometimes do not grab the subject under the box that 3D had.

I think I have it the other way around then, 3D tracking mode being my main mode within most Shooting Banks and Auto-Area AF being called on occasions.

I assigned a button on the lens with AF-ON+Auto Area AF, as it can be useful to enlarge the area in one touch when something is going out of my reach and/or I want to have a chance to catch it, or to simply rest my nerves.

This "AF-ON+Auto Area AF" button works and overrides from both initial modes being 3D Tracking mode or my own Wide-C1 mode.

 

[buildingsights]

Thank you for your replies. here are snapshots of the relevant settings:

We also need #A7 to be set to Auto.

As others are telling you, you should probably set AF-ON button to just AF-ON. Set another button (red record video button is useful) to Cycle AF-area mode. Then you can choose what your normal (AF-ON button) is using on the fly.

wouldn't it be better rather than to use, for ex., the 'red record video button', to use instead to use the 'Focus-mode button' which is not very customisable but designed (?) to be set to cycle AF-area mode and Focus mode?

The main advantage of assigning Cycle AF to the video record button, for example, is that this method provides much faster access to AF Cycle.

In practice, this method is simply much faster and much more ergonomic.

Not only is the video record button in a much better position, but it also allows you to change the AF mode at the touch of a button.

The button designated for AF-Area mode on the Z8 is in an extremely inconvenient location, as you have to hold the lens with one hand.

At least as soon as you attach a substantial lens that requires hand support and you don't just use pancake lenses.

The other hand holds the camera, the camera grip, and is on the opposite side of the designated AF Area mode Cycle buttons on the Z8.

So you first have to reach down to the lower left side of the Z8 body to even reach the button, which means you have to take your hand off the lens, and then you still have to change the setting with the wheel after pressing the AF cycle button.

In contrast, the video record button is intuitively accessible, as it is located directly next to the shutter release and on the side of the right hand that is on the camera. In addition, you have instant access to the switch without having to use the control dial.

Z8 AF Area mode cyle button means =

Remove your hand from the lens to reach the AF Area mode button on the lower left side, adjust the AF Area mode with the control dial, return your hand to the lens...AF Cycle with the Video Record Button = Instant switch to the next AF area mode (which can be narrowed down), without the need of changing your hand position or taking your hand off the lens.

Instant switch without wheel confirmation without having to take your eye off the viewfinder, your finger off the shutter release, or your hand off the lens.

Over time, you will know exactly how many times you need to press the video record button to get to a specific AF area mode.

tuo explain all this pretty well!

this applies only to, as you say to substantial lenses, but for anything else your thumb fell right on that button. and depending on how you configure it, you don't need to use the dials for cycling the AF-area mode. but perhaps i missed something....

 

[Thom Hogan]

After a little experimentation, I have found that there are only two settings where the camera will lock on to a subject: Auto area (lots of little green boxes) and 3D.

Your wording is problematic. I believe you mean "track" rather than "lock on to." And your suggestion that only Auto-area AF and 3D tracking will track a subject is also incorrect. All four of the Wide-area AF methods will do so, too. The only ones that don't track in AF C are Single-point AF and Dynamic-area AF (all sizes). But even Dynamic-area AF does some tracking.

In these modes, the green box(es) will remain locked on to the subject. In all the other modes (point, small,etc,) I get a green box that stays fixed in the frame, even in AF-C. So AF-C does not seem useful for these other modes-the minute the camera strays from the subject, it refocuses,

And here it appears that you're not actually using Back Button focus. At least not the way it is normally used. For instance, with a small bird in a highly congested tree, I might use Single-point AF to obtain focus (AF-ON button), then let off the button and recompose slightly.

For capturing things that might move in the frame (race cars, animals, etc) 3D seems most useful - is this correct? I dont know how useful auto area is because I cannot predict what it will lock on to.

It appears also that you're not using subject detection, which is not only reliable as to what it will focus on, but shows you.

Even handoff does not seem to work reliably.

When people report this to me and then I watch them attempt it, they're either on two buttons simultaneously or there is too much separation between the button presses.

For example I have fn1 as 3d matrix, the AF on btn set to AF-ON only, and focus mode set set to auto area. When i focus on something with 3D, then release and then immediately press the btn with AF ON (for handoff), the little green boxes sometimes do not grab the subject under the box that 3D had.

Again, it appears that you have subject detection off. Moreover, you're going the opposite direction from most of us doing handoff: start wide, narrow to subject (e.g. Auto-area AF acquires (typically with subject detection) and passes to 3D tracking.

 

[Nebido]

tuo explain all this pretty well!

this applies only to, as you say to substantial lenses, but for anything else your thumb fell right on that button. and depending on how you configure it, you don't need to use the dials for cycling the AF-area mode. but perhaps i missed something....

Would be new to me, but I must also say that I have not dealt much with the dedicated focus mode button of the Z8, as it is simply poorly positioned.

For me, a substantial lens doesn't just mean a Z 400/2.8, but the hand on the lens is also needed for everything else that doesn't come in pancake format.

No matter whether it's a zoom like the Z 14-30/4 S, or Z 24-120/4 S, or lenses like the Z MC 105/2.8 VR S, Z 85/1.8 S, even with my Z 50/1.8 S, my left hand is usually on the lens, at least for me.

That's not to say it's the ideal configuration for everyone, but when it comes to speed, changing the AF area mode instantly and without contortions, Cycle AF on the Video Record button, or alternatively on one of the FN 1 + 2 buttons, is the fastest option.

So I don't want to talk anyone into something they don't need.

Anyone who is happy with the implementation of the dedicated AF mode button has the advantage of not having to waste another free button.

__________

I have now taken a closer look in the settings.

So it can also be configured so that you only change the AF area mode with it and don't need the front wheel for this.

However, the positioning of the button on the lower left-hand side in action remains a significant disadvantage for me.