why should folks go fullframe?

[originalamit]

I see a lot of folks say they want to go full frame and prefer that than the current crop cameras. Would this be true for folks who are more into wildlife photography and the crop actually increases the reach of your telephoto lenses?

If one had truely professional crop cameras, would folks still go full frame? If so, why?

I am considering investing in EF-S lenses at this time (10-22 and 17-55) and my friends have been advising me against it saying i should be L lenses which can fit on FF cameas as well...

Please advise.

Thanks
--
[email protected]

 

[bobbyz]

Unless I can get same pixel density as my 30D and enough pixels in FF so I can crop in PS.

I rather have 1dMK2's AF in 1.6x crop camera. 5fps would be enough in that case.

--
Bobby

http://bobbyz.smugmug.com

 

[SNGX1327]

uh, what do YOU think? are you ever going to buy a 5D or 1D?

i currently own an EF-S mount camera, so i am currently buying EF-S lenses. if i ever upgrade to an EF only camera, i will sell the EF-S lenses and start over. but i doubt that will happen.

i don't think a 1.6x 8MP sensor really has that much advantage over a 1.0x 12MP sensor that can be cropped

 

[Matthew Field]

the larger the sensor/film, the shallower the DOF at a given aperture

 

[DIGIC]

1. First, Crop vs FF cameras:

The difference between 350D/30D (crop) and the 5D (FF) is mainly at the sensor density. The 5D has bigger individual sensors, thus even if you crop to the same level the image is cropped on a crop camera, you get less pixels per area.

Putting this in numbers:

5D ~ 12.8MP
5D image cropped to 1.3x ~ 8MP
5D image cropped to 1.6x ~ 5MP

What this means is that if you shoot from the same position using 5D and 30D, the 30D will give you an image with 8MP, while the image captured by the 5D cropped to the same FOV the 30D is giving, will have only 5MP.

What this means in terms of IQ? Well, it depends on the camera. On my opinion, the 5D has the best per-pixel IQ available today, so even with only 5MP, i still prefer using a 5D than a 30D, even for telephoto work like sports or wildlife.

2. EF-S Lenses vs EF Lenses (not necessarily 'L'):

If you plan to keep using crop cameras in the future, then there are very good EF-S lenses available today from Canon's lineup.

If you plan to move to full frame in the ner future (1-2 years), i would personally go with EF lenses (full frame).

As for 'L' vs 'non-L', it all depends on each particular lens / preference. Some 'L's ar worth the extra investment, some may not, depending on your usage and credit card... There are very good non-L lenses like 35 f/2, 85 f/1.8, 135 f/2.8 SF, etc...

Hope this helps.

--
DiG!C
http://www.pbase.com/hugoneto
(PBase Supporter)
http://digitalphotography.blog.pt/
(Digital Photography Techniques Blog)

 

[originalamit]

my line of thinking is that the technology will keep getting better and better and the features currently available on high end cameras today will become default features for mid range in the next year or two... So i would wait to have these features as in the meanwhile, my 30D will do just fine..

I would think that crop cameras are here to stay... my 300mm lens becomes a 480 on a crop and that is simply great for me for wildlife...

uh, what do YOU think? are you ever going to buy a 5D or 1D?

i currently own an EF-S mount camera, so i am currently buying EF-S
lenses. if i ever upgrade to an EF only camera, i will sell the
EF-S lenses and start over. but i doubt that will happen.

i don't think a 1.6x 8MP sensor really has that much advantage over
a 1.0x 12MP sensor that can be cropped

--
[email protected]

 

[Bobo Hodls]

Likely for the more film-like experience. WA lenses act like they did on film. But I for me, I wanted a better IQ than the 20D offers. Differences will be noted on large prints.

I see a lot of folks say they want to go full frame and prefer that
than the current crop cameras. Would this be true for folks who are
more into wildlife photography and the crop actually increases the
reach of your telephoto lenses?

No. I thought the 5D with cropping would equal the cropped 'reach' of a 20D, but it doesn't. Wildlife shooters who desire everything possible for reaching distant subjects would stay with a crop model.

If one had truely professional crop cameras, would folks still go
full frame? If so, why?

What is professional? Do you mean weather sealed? Every camera model has features that vary somewhat from others. The collective characteristics is what one needs to assess in order to get what's right for their own shooting requirements. You and I may have the same subject matter as our focus, but that doesnt' mean we need the same gear or need to produce the same results.

I am considering investing in EF-S lenses at this time (10-22 and
17-55) and my friends have been advising me against it saying i
should be L lenses which can fit on FF cameas as well...

I didn't buy into that. I have the same EF-s for the 20D, and it will be sold along with the 20D whenever that time comes. Lenses don't lose value like bodies, so don't sweat it, if that's the lens you need now.

--
...Bob, NYC

http://www.pbase.com/btullis

You'll have to ignore the gallery's collection of bad compositions, improper exposures, and amateurish post processing.

 

[originalamit]

Would not technology keep getting better? I would assume the pixel density will also improve drastically in the coming years and so a crop camera will also give you less pixels per area...Sensor technology still has some more distance to go for it to truely reach a peak in technology...

10 years back, i was king with 16MB of memory on my PC and i could play DOOM on it...

I completely agree with your lines of thinking on buying lenses and L alone is not the criteria. I would want to invest in one technology and stick with it... so if its crop cameras, then thats where i would stay and buy what suits my needs for now and for the future.

1. First, Crop vs FF cameras:

The difference between 350D/30D (crop) and the 5D (FF) is mainly at
the sensor density. The 5D has bigger individual sensors, thus even
if you crop to the same level the image is cropped on a crop
camera, you get less pixels per area.

Putting this in numbers:

5D ~ 12.8MP
5D image cropped to 1.3x ~ 8MP
5D image cropped to 1.6x ~ 5MP

What this means is that if you shoot from the same position using
5D and 30D, the 30D will give you an image with 8MP, while the
image captured by the 5D cropped to the same FOV the 30D is giving,
will have only 5MP.

What this means in terms of IQ? Well, it depends on the camera. On
my opinion, the 5D has the best per-pixel IQ available today, so
even with only 5MP, i still prefer using a 5D than a 30D, even for
telephoto work like sports or wildlife.

2. EF-S Lenses vs EF Lenses (not necessarily 'L'):

If you plan to keep using crop cameras in the future, then there
are very good EF-S lenses available today from Canon's lineup.
If you plan to move to full frame in the ner future (1-2 years), i
would personally go with EF lenses (full frame).

As for 'L' vs 'non-L', it all depends on each particular lens /
preference. Some 'L's ar worth the extra investment, some may not,
depending on your usage and credit card... There are very good
non-L lenses like 35 f/2, 85 f/1.8, 135 f/2.8 SF, etc...

Hope this helps.

--
DiG!C
http://www.pbase.com/hugoneto
(PBase Supporter)
http://digitalphotography.blog.pt/
(Digital Photography Techniques Blog)

--
[email protected]

 

[Daniel Clune]

If you want/need more megepixels. Once you reach a certain point the pixel size becomes to small without increasing noise. Looks like right now that pixel size thats in the current XT/20D/30D is as small as canon can go keeping noice in check, so if you want or need more pixels your only choice is to go with a larger sensor . Whether that be a 1.3 crop or full frame. Some people thought the 30D was going to have a 1.3 size sensor so canon could have increased the amount of pixels. Since it didnt they kept it at 8 mege pixel. The rumored replacment of the 1DSMK2 is supposed to be in the 22 mega pixel range which again would put the pixel size right at the current 30D size pixel. Crop cameras dont give you more reach, pixel density does. So if the rumored 1DSMK2 does come out at 22 mega pixel it will have the same amount of reach as the current 30D. You just crop it down to 8 mega pixel and it will have the same feild of view as the 30D.

Now if there is some kind of break though in technology that allows smaller pixels without the added noise then that would change things. Doesnt look like thats coming any time soon though.
--
http://www.pbase.com/dc9mm

 

[Bob Graham rvg]

sorry for yelling... if I could afford it I'd definitely upgrade just for the huge, bright clear view. If you've been using a crop dslr for a while, grab an F4, EOS 1V or other top quality full frame camera and look though the viewfinder. It's astonishing!

There are other reasons but this is one of the most complelling.

Bob

 

[originalamit]

I somehow think that Sony will be the first to break this barrier... we can expect them to do something now that they are in the DSLR market as well... so i am expecting a technology scaling from both nikon and canon to stay ahead in the game....

If you want/need more megepixels. Once you reach a certain point
the pixel size becomes to small without increasing noise. Looks
like right now that pixel size thats in the current XT/20D/30D is
as small as canon can go keeping noice in check, so if you want or
need more pixels your only choice is to go with a larger sensor .
Whether that be a 1.3 crop or full frame. Some people thought the
30D was going to have a 1.3 size sensor so canon could have
increased the amount of pixels. Since it didnt they kept it at 8
mege pixel. The rumored replacment of the 1DSMK2 is supposed to be
in the 22 mega pixel range which again would put the pixel size
right at the current 30D size pixel. Crop cameras dont give you
more reach, pixel density does. So if the rumored 1DSMK2 does come
out at 22 mega pixel it will have the same amount of reach as the
current 30D. You just crop it down to 8 mega pixel and it will have
the same feild of view as the 30D.

Now if there is some kind of break though in technology that allows
smaller pixels without the added noise then that would change
things. Doesnt look like thats coming any time soon though.
--
http://www.pbase.com/dc9mm

--
[email protected]

 

[Gene L.]

I see a lot of folks say they want to go full frame and prefer that
than the current crop cameras. Would this be true for folks who are
more into wildlife photography and the crop actually increases the
reach of your telephoto lenses?

If one had truely professional crop cameras, would folks still go
full frame? If so, why?

I am considering investing in EF-S lenses at this time (10-22 and
17-55) and my friends have been advising me against it saying i
should be L lenses which can fit on FF cameas as well...

Please advise.

Thanks
--
[email protected]

It all depends on what one plans to do with one's camera. As you said, wildlife photographers tend to like the 1.6 crop because of the narrower field of view, which gives more effective telephoto and better edge sharpness. Portrait photographers and those using DOF control as an artistic tool would probably still prefer full frame. I want one of each.

Another consideration is that the viewfinder for a full frame camera can be larger and brighter. Oh how I miss the viewfinders from my old 35mm film cameras.

For you, consider what you will be doing with your camera. Also remember that lenses can be sold these days without taking a huge loss. Also consider that even if you get a full frame camera in the future, you might keep the APS for backup.

I expect APS cameras are here to stay and though I hope to some day get a full frame body for commercial studio, portraiture, and photojournalistic work, I would still want a small APS camera for backup and to use for backpacking/hiking, travel, and any situation where smaller is better.

-Gene L.

-Gene L.

 

[Daniel Clune]

I somehow think that Sony will be the first to break this
barrier... we can expect them to do something now that they are in
the DSLR market as well... so i am expecting a technology scaling
from both nikon and canon to stay ahead in the game....

Sony right now makes the sensor for both the Nikon D2X and D200 both which higher pixel densities than canons 30D and it shows. Thoses are some very noisy cameras. Keep in mind both the D2x and D200 the iso rating isnt the same as canons. Canon under rates there iso settings so you have to compare iso 800 on nikon against about iso 600 on canon or there abouts.

But you think Sony will have a break through. thats just funny. There about 2.5 stops noisyer now, if they increase the pixel density any higher they will be real noise kings. Now if you said Fuji i mite say maybe but Sony, NO WAY.

 

[Hellashot]

They simply crop what the lens is seeing (aside from digital only lenses). You'll get the same shot, with slightly less detail, if you shoot with a FF camera and crop the image to the size of said crop dSLR. The tiny viewfinder of crop cameras make it look like you've got a longer lens, but you don't.

I went from a Drebel (6MP) to a 5D (13MP) and if you crop a 5D shot to an APS sensor you'll get 5MP. I'll tell you that the amount of detail I get is noticeably more on my 5D shots. People say they have different filters on the sensor which make the difference.

An uneducated nikon user on here said he liked his DX sensor because he could use a smaller 135mm lens and not be noticed as much as if he had a 200mm lens and he liked that his shots look like he took them on a 200mm lens. Well I could do the same thing with a 135mm lens and crop the image afterwards to give a 200mm FOV.

 

[DIGIC]

Because if you do, you will then start wondering if EF (full frame) lenses should worth the investment too, because in 10 years time, we may even not have any digital 35mm cameras by then...

Why should digital keep the 35mm format in 10 years? If sensor technology and optics evolve at a great pace, in 10 years we may have mobile phones equipped with 20MP sensors with good IQ up to ISO 6400 and with a single liquid optic giving much better images than what we have today...

A truely honest and personal advice: buy considering the next 2-3 years at most. Don't plan too much ahead or you'll have headaches...

Good luck!

--
DiG!C
http://www.pbase.com/hugoneto
(PBase Supporter)
http://digitalphotography.blog.pt/
(Digital Photography Techniques Blog)

 

[Damkader]

Ditto. that is the main reason that i would switch to the full frame and since i just resently purchased a 30D and am very pleased with it, can't imagine buying the 5D just yet.

Regardless of price i will probably buy the 5D replacement.

And for my needs i hope they don't add too many more Mega pixels.

--
Jay
Equipment on Profile

 

[Mark Hanson]

I don't recall a lot of stories about people cropping their prints before APS-C sensors were invented.

Mark

 

[Bobo Hodls]

I don't recall a lot of stories about people cropping their prints
before APS-C sensors were invented.

And you don't hear much talk about double-expsoures with digital either. The game has changed a little bit since it was a film-only world.

Cropping would have mainly been about adjusting compostions back then. We still can produce double expsoures, but in a different manner with our digitals (excepting the DX2s).


--
...Bob, NYC

http://www.pbase.com/btullis

You'll have to ignore the gallery's collection of bad compositions, improper exposures, and amateurish post processing.

 

[netgarden]

So why then are the optics better on a 5D cropped to 8mpxls, which in your opinion is more like a 5 mpxl in pixels, why then would want that?

Is it the shallower depth of field that makes for better photos?
You said:

"What this means is that if you shoot from the same position using 5D and 30D, the 30D will give you an image with 8MP, while the image captured by the 5D cropped to the same FOV the 30D is giving, will have only 5MP."

Why is that s appealing then? Just curious, why one would want to have to store such huge files to get pretty much the same thing?
thanks

This post question is what I have wondered offen. Thanks you all.

--



http://netgarden.smugmug.com/
DSC V1 Sony for Infrared, Canon 20D,
a few too many lenses...

 

[netgarden]

And the 5D no? I kind of like the idea of getting a little more than what I see in the viewfinder. Isn't that what the 20D/smaller sensor does?
--



http://netgarden.smugmug.com/
DSC V1 Sony for Infrared, Canon 20D,
a few too many lenses...