What is mirrorless?

[nuke12]

Many moons ago when I first came to this site, I thought that mirrorless was any camera that didn't use a mirror of some sort. Of course that excluded DSLRs with the moving mirror and pellix type systems in some Canons and Sony cameras.

I was quickly corrected and told that to be a mirrorless camera, it also had to be an ILC system. Of course that excludes all (most?) of the point and shoot type cameras.

As of late I've noticed that a number of posters have been including P&S in their definition of a mirrorless camera. So what is the consensus on this site of a mirrorless camera?

P.S. - I hate writing polls because it's almost impossible to create questions that make everyone happy.

 

[Alex Zeee]

I wasn't aware there was a rule that it had to be an ILC Some people really take it too seriously, my old Kodak disposable cameras are mirrorless, the Cybershots my dad used to use are mirrorless, the billions of phones with cameras are mirrorless, etc etc etc. Hell, webcams are mirrorless. The name literally implies that it has no mirror so I mean it should be an open and shut case no?

 

[fishy wishy]

I think it is a religious problem of the younger generation

 

[justmeMN]

The camera trade organization CIPA puts fixed-lens compact cameras in a different category than mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras.

Their official categories are:

Camera with built-in lens.

Camera with interchangeable lens: single lens reflex

Camera with interchangeable lens: non-reflex (meaning mirrorless)

***

For clarity, often use the term MILC, for mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera.

 

[Mark_A]

My first camera was a Fuji Finepix 4900z

It had a fixed zoom lens, it didn't have a mirror, and it had an electronic view finder.

It had a very fast burst rate.

As far as I'm concerned it was a mirrorless.

Mark_A

Thread for Sunrise & Sunset pictures (part 3!)

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60273364

 

[nuke12]

I wasn't aware there was a rule that it had to be an ILC Some people really take it too seriously, my old Kodak disposable cameras are mirrorless, the Cybershots my dad used to use are mirrorless, the billions of phones with cameras are mirrorless, etc etc etc. Hell, webcams are mirrorless. The name literally implies that it has no mirror so I mean it should be an open and shut case no?

I thought so when I first started on this site but I was quickly jumped on by a number users. Maybe they just wanted to distance themselves from the P&S users but it's a true story. Honestly, I still don't know but I've tried to follow the rules, I was told at that time so I don't get lamb based again. As of late, I'm just confused on the question.

 

[mamallama]

The camera trade organization CIPA puts fixed-lens compact cameras in a different category than mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras.

Their official categories are:

Camera with built-in lens.

Camera with interchangeable lens: single lens reflex

Camera with interchangeable lens: non-reflex (meaning mirrorless)

Yes, that is the acceptable nomenclature for using the term mirrorless. There are dozens of other types of cameras that don't use a mirror from before the time of Kodak Baby Brownie cameras. It would be confusing to refer to them as mirrorless.

 

[Dennis]

I was quickly corrected and told that to be a mirrorless camera, it also had to be an ILC system. Of course that excludes all (most?) of the point and shoot type cameras.

As of late I've noticed that a number of posters have been including P&S in their definition of a mirrorless camera. So what is the consensus on this site of a mirrorless camera?

I've always thought it was pretty simple: fixed lens cameras are mirrorless, of course, but you don't have to use the term mirrorless to differentiate them from mirrored version. (Olympus made a couple fixed lens DSLRs many moons ago, but that's about it).

So yes, they're mirrorless, but there's no reason to call them mirrorless.

Edit: And this isn't any kind of "distancing" from "p&s users". I use an RX100, a couple mirrorless Sonys and a DSLR. I'm about to sell off the mirrorless system after buying an RX10. And I expect that most of my photos will be taken with the two fixed lens cameras. They don't have mirrors, but I have no reason to refer to them as mirrorless.

ILCs, on the other hand, can be differentiated by whether they're DSLRs or mirrorless (with a few other categories, like rangefinder). So there's a point to referring to an ILC as mirrorless.

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

 

[Dem Bell]

The camera trade organization CIPA puts fixed-lens compact cameras in a different category than mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras.

Their official categories are:

Camera with built-in lens.

Camera with interchangeable lens: single lens reflex

Camera with interchangeable lens: non-reflex (meaning mirrorless)

***

And then Sony comes and makes a camera that is non-reflex but has a mirror... Neither SLR no mirrorless... Argh!!!

Loading…

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[nuke12]

The camera trade organization CIPA puts fixed-lens compact cameras in a different category than mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras.

Their official categories are:

Camera with built-in lens.

Camera with interchangeable lens: single lens reflex

Camera with interchangeable lens: non-reflex (meaning mirrorless)

***

For clarity, often use the term MILC, for mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera.

Yes, I know but are they defining their categories for number purposes only? Does that mean that a P&S is not a mirrorless camera?

--
I'm a photo hacker. I use my expensive equipment to destroy anything in front of my camera. This is a special skill that can never be realized by low life photographers. A nurtured skill since the 1970's.

 

[mamallama]

The camera trade organization CIPA puts fixed-lens compact cameras in a different category than mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras.

Their official categories are:

Camera with built-in lens.

Camera with interchangeable lens: single lens reflex

Camera with interchangeable lens: non-reflex (meaning mirrorless)

***

And then Sony comes and makes a camera that is non-reflex but has a mirror... Neither SLR no mirrorless... Argh!!!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_SLT_camera

The fixed mirror is part of the focusing PDAF system, not part of the viewfinder system. In the description above, I would consider it a mirrorless camera.

 

[New Day Rising]

I was quickly corrected and told that to be a mirrorless camera, it also had to be an ILC system. Of course that excludes all (most?) of the point and shoot type cameras.

As of late I've noticed that a number of posters have been including P&S in their definition of a mirrorless camera. So what is the consensus on this site of a mirrorless camera?

I've always thought it was pretty simple: fixed lens cameras are mirrorless, of course, but you don't have to use the term mirrorless to differentiate them from mirrored version. (Olympus made a couple fixed lens DSLRs many moons ago, but that's about it).

So yes, they're mirrorless, but there's no reason to call them mirrorless.

Edit: And this isn't any kind of "distancing" from "p&s users". I use an RX100, a couple mirrorless Sonys and a DSLR. I'm about to sell off the mirrorless system after buying an RX10. And I expect that most of my photos will be taken with the two fixed lens cameras. They don't have mirrors, but I have no reason to refer to them as mirrorless.

ILCs, on the other hand, can be differentiated by whether they're DSLRs or mirrorless (with a few other categories, like rangefinder). So there's a point to referring to an ILC as mirrorless.

- Dennis
--
Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com

You've put it well.

The term "mirrorless" did not appear until the introduction of the Panasonic G1 and was adopted to differentiate interchangeable lens cameras (ILCSs) without mirrors from those with mirrors. It had never been used previously to refer to fixed lens compacts or rangefinders or phone cameras.

The inclusion of these cameras within the category "mirrorless" among discussions on this site is a more recent phenomenon. I think it's fair to say that sometimes it has been used in this way just to be argumentative (but not always).

So, while the term "mirrorless" does technically include P&S compacts and phone cameras, it is in some ways a meaningless extension of the term and "mirrorless" in a more practical sense just includes ILCs.

 

[mamallama]

The camera trade organization CIPA puts fixed-lens compact cameras in a different category than mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras.

Their official categories are:

Camera with built-in lens.

Camera with interchangeable lens: single lens reflex

Camera with interchangeable lens: non-reflex (meaning mirrorless)

***

For clarity, often use the term MILC, for mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera.

Yes, I know but are they defining their categories for number purposes only?

To distinguish interchangeable lens cameras without mirrors from those with mirrors (DSLRs).

Earlier, cameras now in the mirrorless category were called by some EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) cameras. But that name didn't stick for devilish reasons.

Does that mean that a P&S is not a mirrorless camera?

No. Just that it is not defined in the mirrorless classification for discussing camera categories.

--
I'm a photo hacker. I use my expensive equipment to destroy anything in front of my camera. This is a special skill that can never be realized by low life photographers. A nurtured skill since the 1970's.

 

[Goethe]

"Mirrorless", in regards to the recent category of cameras called such, is merely an evolution of the DSLR.

Take a DSLR, remove the mirror, thus you have a new camera that is 'mirrorless'. By doing this you now rely on other technologies to get the job done that the DSLR did with a mirror. Specifically, on sensor focusing and some type of electronic display is needed, either an EVF in a traditional location or an LCD on the back.

Its dumb to define a thing by what it doesnt have, but thats just the way is shook out.

And due to the new technologies involved this category can cover interchangeable lens models and fixed lens models alike. (Was there ever even a fixed lens DSLR?)

A phone isnt a mirrorless camera, not in relation to the recent category of cameras that are mirrorless DSLR's. Does a phone have a mirror? No, but that doesnt make it a 'mirrorless' camera. Phones also dont have aardvarks. That doesnt mean its an aardvarkless camera.

Large format view cameras are not mirrorless.

Rangefinders are not mirrorless.

And so on...

Nomenclature is fun.

--
Straylightrun- "Are you for real?"
Goethe- "No, I'm a unicorn. Kudos for seeing thru the disguise."
http://photolumiere.net/
Goethe, this is a notification that you have been temporarily banned from dpreview, details of the reason are as follows: Excessive use of glitter.

 

[zackiedawg]

This tends to be a semantics argument, in how the word is intended to be used, versus the wider definition of the word. It might go over easier for some if the category of camera commonly referred to as 'Mirrorless' were denoted with a capitalized first letter...while the wider broad definition of 'mirrorless' would cover all cameras that do not use a mirror within their optical path.

Consider The Moon vs a moon, or God vs god.

Mirrorless is a familiar shortened form of 'Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Cameras', or MILCs...just as many shortened terms become common use, but technically could have a wider definition.

If we just think of the other category as without a capital letter, then mirrorless can just be any and all cameras that don't have a mirror.

Even though someone may not use the capitalized vs non-capitalized, it's usually fairly clear in the context of a post when someone is referring to the particular category of interchangeable lens cameras without a mirror, or just referring to all cameras without mirrors.

 

[Tuloom]

In real life, outside of pedantic forums, everyone will know exactly what you're talking about if they have a brain. No one cares that P&S's and stonehenge film cameras are mirrorless.

 

[nuke12]

This tends to be a semantics argument, in how the word is intended to be used, versus the wider definition of the word. It might go over easier for some if the category of camera commonly referred to as 'Mirrorless' were denoted with a capitalized first letter...while the wider broad definition of 'mirrorless' would cover all cameras that do not use a mirror within their optical path.

Consider The Moon vs a moon, or God vs god.

Mirrorless is a familiar shortened form of 'Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Cameras', or MILCs...just as many shortened terms become common use, but technically could have a wider definition.

If we just think of the other category as without a capital letter, then mirrorless can just be any and all cameras that don't have a mirror.

Even though someone may not use the capitalized vs non-capitalized, it's usually fairly clear in the context of a post when someone is referring to the particular category of interchangeable lens cameras without a mirror, or just referring to all cameras without mirrors.

Yes, I've seen this but is there no clear definition of what is a "mirrorless" or "Mirrorless" camera? Some posts I can figure out by what the poster is saying but more often then not, it's a guess. At the very best, the term {M}{m}irrorless is very mirkey.

 

[john Clinch]

The camera trade organization CIPA puts fixed-lens compact cameras in a different category than mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras.

Their official categories are:

Camera with built-in lens.

Camera with interchangeable lens: single lens reflex

Camera with interchangeable lens: non-reflex (meaning mirrorless)

***

For clarity, often use the term MILC, for mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera.

Yes, I know but are they defining their categories for number purposes only?

To distinguish interchangeable lens cameras without mirrors from those with mirrors (DSLRs).

Earlier, cameras now in the mirrorless category were called by some EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) cameras. But that name didn't stick for devilish reasons.

I think the industry was ordered to jump on the term mirror less in a desperate move to make sure that the more accurate EVIL was not adopted.....

 

[Dheorl]

The camera trade organization CIPA puts fixed-lens compact cameras in a different category than mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras.

Their official categories are:

Camera with built-in lens.

Camera with interchangeable lens: single lens reflex

Camera with interchangeable lens: non-reflex (meaning mirrorless)

***

For clarity, often use the term MILC, for mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera.

Yes, I know but are they defining their categories for number purposes only?

To distinguish interchangeable lens cameras without mirrors from those with mirrors (DSLRs).

Earlier, cameras now in the mirrorless category were called by some EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) cameras. But that name didn't stick for devilish reasons.

I think the industry was ordered to jump on the term mirror less in a desperate move to make sure that the more accurate EVIL was not adopted.....

The problem with EVIL though is, as mentioned, it stands for Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens. Doesn't really fit particularly well when half of them don't have viewfinders.

 

[john Clinch]

The camera trade organization CIPA puts fixed-lens compact cameras in a different category than mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras.

Their official categories are:

Camera with built-in lens.

Camera with interchangeable lens: single lens reflex

Camera with interchangeable lens: non-reflex (meaning mirrorless)

***

For clarity, often use the term MILC, for mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera.

Yes, I know but are they defining their categories for number purposes only?

To distinguish interchangeable lens cameras without mirrors from those with mirrors (DSLRs).

Earlier, cameras now in the mirrorless category were called by some EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) cameras. But that name didn't stick for devilish reasons.

I think the industry was ordered to jump on the term mirror less in a desperate move to make sure that the more accurate EVIL was not adopted.....

The problem with EVIL though is, as mentioned, it stands for Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens. Doesn't really fit particularly well when half of them don't have viewfinders.

Coming in at number 8 in our arguments that repeat on DPreview list.

"Is a screen a viewfinder? "

Yes it is. But isn't an eye level viewfinder.