Upgrade or replace?

[Craig Gillette]

I've kind of entered an "upgrade?" or "replace?" point. (Older I7 9700, 16 Gb and GTX 1660, 1tb Sata SSD and a couple of internal and external hard drives. Aside from "photo," it's fine. I've added Wi Fi 6, enough drive space for now, etc. MB seems limited for adding new graphics and/or upgrading to usb-c.

So looking to an I7 12700k and 3060 ti (pretty much as a minimum.) Will probably go to 32 Gb memory (leaving room to add, if needed). So initial "looking" suggests new mb, perhaps new SSD (C Drive), adding memory, CPU and GPU, or just getting a new computer altogether.

Currently, I'm using an A7Riv (big files). I've begun using DxO and Topaz in post and am beginning to experiment with video, so not just LR at this point. I don't game, currently using a 4K and 1920x1080 monitor with no problems.

Loading LR or DxO, etc, except from a restart or fresh start is stodgy, with LR sometimes multiple stops, "Not Responding." Stitching multiple images is painful and if more than 5 or so seems to be on the verge of crashing, flashing screens, etc.

So, "upgrade/replace" several parts of current system or go "new?" New gives me 2 systems versus one with some new and some older components. Some drives might be carried over or not, etc.

 

[Austinian]

I've kind of entered an "upgrade?" or "replace?" point. (Older I7 9700, 16 Gb and GTX 1660, 1tb Sata SSD and a couple of internal and external hard drives. Aside from "photo," it's fine. I've added Wi Fi 6, enough drive space for now, etc. MB seems limited for adding new graphics and/or upgrading to usb-c.

So looking to an I7 12700k and 3060 ti (pretty much as a minimum.) Will probably go to 32 Gb memory (leaving room to add, if needed). So initial "looking" suggests new mb, perhaps new SSD (C Drive), adding memory, CPU and GPU, or just getting a new computer altogether.

Currently, I'm using an A7Riv (big files). I've begun using DxO and Topaz in post and am beginning to experiment with video, so not just LR at this point. I don't game, currently using a 4K and 1920x1080 monitor with no problems.

Loading LR or DxO, etc, except from a restart or fresh start is stodgy, with LR sometimes multiple stops, "Not Responding." Stitching multiple images is painful and if more than 5 or so seems to be on the verge of crashing, flashing screens, etc.

So, "upgrade/replace" several parts of current system or go "new?" New gives me 2 systems versus one with some new and some older components. Some drives might be carried over or not, etc.

FWIW, my PC is older than yours (i7-7800X), and still works well enough for my PhotoLab (and other) needs with an A7RIV. I do have 32GB, needed for some panoramas, and a RTX 3080 (for gaming on a 4K monitor).

But never let it be said I discouraged anyone from buying a fine new toy of any kind.

 

[BobKnDP]

I'm not sure what you mean by "MB seems limited for adding new graphics and/or upgrading to usb-c." I believe that it's PCI-E 3.0, which should be OK with any of the up-to-date graphics cards. Even an RTX 4090 (not an upgrade suggestion) is still PCI-E 4.0, which should be backwards compatible.

If your power supply is adequate, you should be able to swap in a better graphics card. Bumping up the RAM to 32GB might help too.

USB-C could be added with a card, although you may be stuck with having the connectors in the back of the PC. That's if you're not short of PCI-E lanes.

If you wish to upgrade the CPU (and motherboard), the Gen13 CPUs are supposed to be available tomorrow (20 October, 2022). Some of them offer increased performance (more cores) than their Gen12 equivalents. The best choice of motherboard for Gen13 would be a 700 series (mainly to avoid worries about having a BIOS that would support Gen13). They are available for either DDR4 or DDR5.

 

[Tom_N]

Loading LR or DxO, etc, except from a restart or fresh start is stodgy, with LR sometimes multiple stops, "Not Responding."

You can't even launch Lightroom on a system with an i7-9700, 16 GB of RAM, and a 1 TB SATA SSD without it hanging multiple times? Sounds as if there's some issue other than an i7-1200K with 32 GB of RAM and a 3060 TI discrete GPU being theoretically faster.
Is the system unstable with other applications, or just with Lightroom?

 

[BobKnDP]

Loading LR or DxO, etc, except from a restart or fresh start is stodgy, with LR sometimes multiple stops, "Not Responding."

You can't even launch Lightroom on a system with an i7-9700, 16 GB of RAM, and a 1 TB SATA SSD without it hanging multiple times? Sounds as if there's some issue other than an i7-1200K with 32 GB of RAM and a 3060 TI discrete GPU being theoretically faster.

Is the system unstable with other applications, or just with Lightroom?

That's a definite point. Something must be amiss in the old system.

I didn't really read the second half of the OP's post.

 

[jfriend00]

I've kind of entered an "upgrade?" or "replace?" point. (Older I7 9700, 16 Gb and GTX 1660, 1tb Sata SSD and a couple of internal and external hard drives. Aside from "photo," it's fine. I've added Wi Fi 6, enough drive space for now, etc. MB seems limited for adding new graphics and/or upgrading to usb-c.

So looking to an I7 12700k and 3060 ti (pretty much as a minimum.) Will probably go to 32 Gb memory (leaving room to add, if needed). So initial "looking" suggests new mb, perhaps new SSD (C Drive), adding memory, CPU and GPU, or just getting a new computer altogether.

Currently, I'm using an A7Riv (big files). I've begun using DxO and Topaz in post and am beginning to experiment with video, so not just LR at this point. I don't game, currently using a 4K and 1920x1080 monitor with no problems.

Loading LR or DxO, etc, except from a restart or fresh start is stodgy, with LR sometimes multiple stops, "Not Responding." Stitching multiple images is painful and if more than 5 or so seems to be on the verge of crashing, flashing screens, etc.

So, "upgrade/replace" several parts of current system or go "new?" New gives me 2 systems versus one with some new and some older components. Some drives might be carried over or not, etc.

I'm surprised you think the i7-9700 needs upgrading. I have a system built with the same processor and see no reason at all to upgrade it for either Capture One, when processing 42MP Nikon Z7ii images.

If you compare that CPU with the i7-12700k here, you'll see the newer processor is about 30% faster for single threaded things and only beats it by more in multi-threading if your software utilizes more than the 8 cores of the 9700k (which is likely not that common) and isn't gated by other things (like disk speed). So, a 30% improvement in CPU isn't likely to make a big difference.

As for video card, why do you think you need an upgrade there? LR does not ask a lot of the video card.

Your symptoms sound like maybe you're running low on free memory while running various operations and perhaps the system is swapping because it's trying to use too much memory.

I'd first consider these upgrades:

1. Go to 32MB of DRAM.

2. Get a fast M.2 SSD that is big enough for catalogs and image caches (assuming your motherboard supports it). If you can put the images themselves on SSD, that may also help, but that is not required.

3. Make sure the OS and apps are loading from an SSD.

4. Examine your system about what's using meaningful amounts of memory when no foreground apps are running and see if you can clean up things that are taking memory that you aren't using. I refer to this as Windows clutter and it seems to accumulate over time due to all the apps you install and their desired to install services that are always running (Adobe is one of the worst offenders here, but you probably can't get rid of that).

 

[Craig Gillette]

I've kind of entered an "upgrade?" or "replace?" point. (Older I7 9700, 16 Gb and GTX 1660, 1tb Sata SSD and a couple of internal and external hard drives. Aside from "photo," it's fine. I've added Wi Fi 6, enough drive space for now, etc. MB seems limited for adding new graphics and/or upgrading to usb-c.

So looking to an I7 12700k and 3060 ti (pretty much as a minimum.) Will probably go to 32 Gb memory (leaving room to add, if needed). So initial "looking" suggests new mb, perhaps new SSD (C Drive), adding memory, CPU and GPU, or just getting a new computer altogether.

Currently, I'm using an A7Riv (big files). I've begun using DxO and Topaz in post and am beginning to experiment with video, so not just LR at this point. I don't game, currently using a 4K and 1920x1080 monitor with no problems.

Loading LR or DxO, etc, except from a restart or fresh start is stodgy, with LR sometimes multiple stops, "Not Responding." Stitching multiple images is painful and if more than 5 or so seems to be on the verge of crashing, flashing screens, etc.

So, "upgrade/replace" several parts of current system or go "new?" New gives me 2 systems versus one with some new and some older components. Some drives might be carried over or not, etc.

I'm surprised you think the i7-9700 needs upgrading. I have a system built with the same processor and see no reason at all to upgrade it for either Capture One, when processing 42MP Nikon Z7ii images.

I don't know that it needs updating but ongoing efforts over time have not yielded the sort of performance in loading Lightroom that others seem to get nor the speeds others report in use. It works fairly well to load when I restart before using it, keep the library current, etc.

If you compare that CPU with the i7-12700k here, you'll see the newer processor is about 30% faster for single threaded things and only beats it by more in multi-threading if your software utilizes more than the 8 cores of the 9700k (which is likely not that common) and isn't gated by other things (like disk speed). So, a 30% improvement in CPU isn't likely to make a big difference.

As for video card, why do you think you need an upgrade there? LR does not ask a lot of the video card.

I don't just use Lightroom.

Your symptoms sound like maybe you're running low on free memory while running various operations and perhaps the system is swapping because it's trying to use too much memory.

I'd first consider these upgrades:

1. Go to 32MB of DRAM.

I've considered that for the stitching, etc.

2. Get a fast M.2 SSD that is big enough for catalogs and image caches (assuming your motherboard supports it). If you can put the images themselves on SSD, that may also help, but that is not required.

The motherboard box says it has a Turbo M2 slot supporting Intel Optane. I've taken quite a few images off the SSD as the larger files take up a fair amount of space. So they load a little more slowly but that's not that bad.

3. Make sure the OS and apps are loading from an SSD.

They are, this isn't a new issue.

4. Examine your system about what's using meaningful amounts of memory when no foreground apps are running and see if you can clean up things that are taking memory that you aren't using. I refer to this as Windows clutter and it seems to accumulate over time due to all the apps you install and their desired to install services that are always running (Adobe is one of the worst offenders here, but you probably can't get rid of that).

I've chased this issue in the past and had little luck with it improving much or retaining the improved timing.

 

[BobKnDP]

What's the motherboard?

Optane was commonly used as a nonvolatile cache for an HDD. (I've also seen it used as cache for an SSD, which seems strange.) I presume that you're not using that.

I presume that "turbo" means that the M.2 slot could use an NVME Gen3 X4 drive.

 

[Craig Gillette]

I'm not sure what you mean by "MB seems limited for adding new graphics and/or upgrading to usb-c."

I should be able to add a newer graphics card but one of the two PCI slots has the upgraded WiFi card and I seem to recall when I was checking before, it wasn't clear if the available slot would support 10Gbps. I'm also pretty sure the current MB LGA 1151 socket, etc, won't handle the more recent processors.

I believe that it's PCI-E 3.0, which should be OK with any of the up-to-date graphics cards. Even an RTX 4090 (not an upgrade suggestion) is still PCI-E 4.0, which should be backwards compatible.

I'm not sure I'd "need" a card beyond the 3060 TI, but will be doing some 4k video so 3070s aren't necessarily out of the question. Not expecting gaming nor an 8k tv in the near future.

If your power supply is adequate, you should be able to swap in a better graphics card. Bumping up the RAM to 32GB might help too.

It's got 2 dimm slots so would need to replace both to get to 32.

USB-C could be added with a card, although you may be stuck with having the connectors in the back of the PC. That's if you're not short of PCI-E lanes.

I think I've got a slot available but slots in the back would be hard to deal with or would be bringing them forward to a hub, etc. I'd like at least one faster current generation to handle a faster card reader.

If you wish to upgrade the CPU (and motherboard), the Gen13 CPUs are supposed to be available tomorrow (20 October, 2022). Some of them offer increased performance (more cores) than their Gen12 equivalents. The best choice of motherboard for Gen13 would be a 700 series (mainly to avoid worries about having a BIOS that would support Gen13). They are available for either DDR4 or DDR5.

That's kind of why I'm wondering about a full new system. Buy a new current system and have a decent older system or spend a fair amount (while likely somewhat less) upgrading the older system and have a "newer" older system.

 

[Craig Gillette]

MSI B360M PRO-VD.

 

[Craig Gillette]

I spent some time chasing suggestions a while back on a couple of forums, perhaps here. If I reboot then open Lightroom, it goes ok. Otherwise, the photo applications just seem to run more slowly that it sounds like others are getting.

 

[Craig Gillette]

So, I'm looking at upgrading/replacing a variety of elements in an older system, which has a motherboard that won't get past 9th generation processors, should take a newer graphics card with the likelihood that the power supply is adequate (would need to get in there and see it's rating to be sure), using both PCI slots to handle WiFi and upgraded usb, replacing memory with two slots so either two 16s or a 32, etc., perhaps I can improve on the existing SSD? etc. If I want/need to replace the motherboard, a new one would likely have on board Bluetooth, current WiFi, upgraded usb connectivity, and would also support current SSDs, cpus and gpus.

So there's the possibility of getting to a "new" system in an old case with an old power supply, or getting a new system and having a decent general use older system, too.

Will be using Lightroom, DxO PhotoLab 6, some of the Topaz AI products and exploring doing some video. Using 4k monitor and tvs, no anticipation of needing to support 8K displays nor gaming in the immediate future. (And generic "Office" programs, browsing, etc.)

So assuming I'm talking myself into a new system, or a new/old system, I'm looking to at least the I7 12700k (or 13s) and 3060 ti and 32 Gb memory. Or if the price differential isn't ugly might consider upping memory (I don't see that needed except if I get crazy about stitching panoramas, etc.) and/or 3070s?

 

[Robert Zanatta]

That's a very basic motherboard and it's meant for a basic build. For your existing processor, the VRM is likely insufficient and the processor is probably running slower than it could be.

 

[Craig Gillette]

So, upgrading the motherboard as a first step (and adding memory*) could allow better performance on more demanding operations with the rest of the existing hardware? And assuming the power supply is suitable, the new motherboard could support incremental changes like faster SSD for the "C" drive, perhaps a later generation cpu and/or a better gpu as well.

* Memory to help with stitching and video?

 

[BobKnDP]

MSI B360M PRO-VD.

The board has one PCI-e X16 slot, and two PCI-e X1 slots. You already have a WiFi card in one of the X1 slots. You may be able to put a card with USB-C ports in the other X1 slot. I don't see anything in the manual about PCI-e lane competition.

I wouldn't do it, myself. I have my PC located so that access to its rear ports is annoying at best.

I see no obvious reason why you couldn't upgrade the graphics card. The GTX 1660 is supposed to use a single 8 pin PCI-e power connector. The lower-end RTX 3000 cards use the same. nVidia cards. If you want something more powerful, (3070 and up), you'd need two power cables.

As to feeble VRMs throttling your CPU, that's beyond my knowledge. The I7-9700 has a 65W TDP. One reference claims its peak power is 107W (turbo mode). Doesn't seem like a lot. (My CPU is an I9-12900k. 241W max.)

 

[BobKnDP]

Upgrading is a slippery slope.

Your CPU is LGA 1151. I wouldn't recommend buying a motherboard that supported that.

Your RAM is DDR4, so that could, in principle, be moved to a new build. But with 16MB (2X8), and (I presume) low clocks, I'd replace it with at least DDR4 3200 in a new build. (Or get a MB that supports DDR5, for increased coolness.)

If you go to a Gen12 or Gen13 CPU, those are LGA 1700. You'd need a 600 or 700 series motherboard. You'd have your choice of boards that use DDR4 Ram, or DDR5 (usually only one type). DDR5 is still more expensive than DDR4.

A 600 or 700 series MB would allow you to use a PCI-e Gen 4 NVME M.2 drive. Up to twice as fast as a Gen 3 drive. (Sequential reads of 7000MB/s are common). Gen4 drives are no longer expensive, at least at the 1TB level.

 

[Tom_N]

So, upgrading the motherboard as a first step (and adding memory*) could allow better performance on more demanding operations with the rest of the existing hardware? And assuming the power supply is suitable, the new motherboard could support incremental changes like faster SSD for the "C" drive, perhaps a later generation cpu and/or a better gpu as well.

* Memory to help with stitching and video?

MSI – B360M-PRO-VD Motherboard Specification

Your motherboard has a M.2 slot that supports an Intel Optane module or 4-lane PCIe 3.0 SSD (2242/2260/2280 form factors).

Aside from the main PCIe slot, it has two 1-lane PCIe 3.0 slots. PCIe has a unidirectional bandwidth of 1 GB/s (8 Gb/s) per lane. It sounds like if you added USB 3.1 Gen 2 ports, via plug-in cards, your motherboard could bottleneck the ports on the cards.

Its integrated video ports are VGA and DVI-D – not the current HDMI, (Mini) DisplayPort, and USB-C (DisplayPort). If you plug a video card into the 16-lane card, that card could (and likely would) provide you with one or more of the newer ports.

 

[Robert Zanatta]

Yes, a better board could avoid throttling due to excessive VRM temperature.

You could check if there is any throttling occurring (either because of the VRM or CPU temperatures) by running a benchmark or stress test that can go continuously. There are free ones available. Then along with that you could use a monitoring program like hardware info or cpuz and watch the processor frequency to see if it does under sustained load.

 

[Austinian]

That's kind of why I'm wondering about a full new system. Buy a new current system and have a decent older system or spend a fair amount (while likely somewhat less) upgrading the older system and have a "newer" older system.

My own inclination would be to either simply upgrade the memory to 32GB and add a RTX 30xx graphics card, or buy a whole new system.

 

[BackToNature1]

I have always been under the impression that these Windows PCs slow down quite a bit when they reach a certain usage space left on the internal Hard Drive. Also, if you are like me an have massive amounts of Photos/Videos saved to your Desktop as opposed to internal folders, I think that can be an issue also.

I only shoot RAW, for my FF camera, that's almost a 50MB file. I also edit Video on the same PC. I have at least 3 different Photo editing software Programs on this PC and at least 2 Video editing software programs. So offloading Desktop and internal storage might help. I know adding more Memory would. Below are the PC specs on what I am using for the above.



Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-6400 CPU @ 2.70GHz 2.71 GHz

12.0 GB installed Ram.