Update to phone call with Tom at Sigma - pls see corrections

[Samuel Pyrtle]

Well....

I just spoke to Tom again at Sigma - and he was really upset with me.

It appears that he feels I misquoted him in my inital conversation. He says he has gotten in some trouble because of what I said. He has not personally seen my initial post, but he is well aware of it.

Let me be VERY clear with everyone - including Tom should he read this post.

Tom told me in my previous conversation, and I am quoting here, "There is a delay in the sensor production and they are behind in their shipment".

He says he did not mention FOVEON. And he is correct - he did not.

However - who else would be behind in this regard? Sigma?

I told Tom just now, on the phone: "Tom, you said to me that there were delays in the sensor production - and you did not mention Foveon. You are right and I am wrong. I am sorry that I misquoted you. But if Foveon is not behind in the sensor production, then who is?"

He just kind of did a "umm,,, ugh,,,, I don't have anything else to add"

So what does that mean? Where is he trying to back peddle to?

Notice he didn't say "I never said there were sensor production delays" - because he did say that. He simply will not say who is behind the sensor manufacturing delay.

And I tell you what - he wasn't very nice. And I can understand him being upset if he got into trouble - and I threw in the Foveon name when he didn't. It was wrong on my part to mention Foveon when he didn't. I made a 'logical assumption'. I apologized PROFUSELY to him. I told him I would make a post to correct my mistake. And I am doing so - right now.

However, he was not very nice - at the beginning or the end of the conversation. He continued to be stand-offish.

So - he does not deny he said 'sensor production delays' - he just denies he said "Foveon" was at fault. I agree.

But then the question is - who is behind the production delay?

I tell ya - I am really upset. I would never mis-quote on purpose. I would never repeat something I thought was told to me in confidence or that I thought would get someone else in trouble.

I am rethinking everything with Sigma now. I have already invested over $2000 in lenses, etc - all useless without the camera. And I do not expect Sigma to ship 3000 camera on the release date. Or even 300. I expect the momentum to build somewhat over time. Just as Tom indicated to me last week. So that is not an issue with me.... I would like one sooner than later - but I can be patient. And whatever the reason - sensor delay or not - in time, all will be fine.

I am not Cleo - and do not read minds. I can only go on what I am told. And I was wrong to assume 'Foveon' was behind it. For that, I apologize - to Tom, Foveon, Phil (for having to double check me), and all of you as well.

If Foveon is not the cause behind the delay, then who is? or what is? And I wouldn't expect to be treated like some piriah by the person who told them stuff in the first place. If there is some delay - please explain it. Don't just say "ummm,,,,, ugh,,,,,". Say it all - or say nothing.

And when someone makes a mistake (like I did by mentioning Foveon when Tom didn't), and offers a very sincere apology, be gracious enough to except it. Why continue to be rude?

I steaming -

I need to go and do some thinking.

-Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

 

[Samuel Pyrtle]

Perhaps Tom - like myself - needed some sort of 'cooling off' period.

I spoke to him again - and this time - things went better.

I told him I had posted a correction - explaining that he never mentioned Foveon. And again offered my apologies.

I told him that I left that last conversation upset - and feeling bad.

He was much more polite this time - invited me to the Photo Plus show - and to see him in NY at B&H, etc so I could play with the SD9 (prototype).

So - our last conversation went much better.

I thought I would let you all know.

He, like myself, and like all of us I suppose, is doing the best he can - and dealing with his own pressures.

I am glad I made that one final call - I feel better - and I think he does to.

As for the delay - and what is behind it - I did not mention it again. We will just have to continue to hope for the best. And I am sure the production will catch up with the demand.

Thanks
Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

 

[Gavin McKinlay38537]

Perhaps Tom - like myself - needed some sort of 'cooling off' period.

I spoke to him again - and this time - things went better.

I told him I had posted a correction - explaining that he never
mentioned Foveon. And again offered my apologies.

I told him that I left that last conversation upset - and feeling bad.

He was much more polite this time - invited me to the Photo Plus
show - and to see him in NY at B&H, etc so I could play with the
SD9 (prototype).

So - our last conversation went much better.

I thought I would let you all know.

He, like myself, and like all of us I suppose, is doing the best he
can - and dealing with his own pressures.

I am glad I made that one final call - I feel better - and I think
he does to.

As for the delay - and what is behind it - I did not mention it
again. We will just have to continue to hope for the best. And I
am sure the production will catch up with the demand.

Thanks
Sam

Hey Sam,

Been there, done that. No reason to be upset after all most companies will tick you off every now and then.

Glad yourself and Tom are seeing eye to eye again as that is important.

I wouldn't rethink the SD9 route if I wew you as I know you will be pleasantly surprised. Best of luck!

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

--
Regards,
Gavin
Canon Pro90IS, B-300 Canon Pro 70

 

[tim martin]

He says he did not mention FOVEON. And he is correct - he did not.

However - who else would be behind in this regard? Sigma?

I told Tom just now, on the phone: "Tom, you said to me that there
were delays in the sensor production - and you did not mention
Foveon. You are right and I am wrong. I am sorry that I misquoted
you. But if Foveon is not behind in the sensor production, then
who is?"

Doesn't this guy work on the marketing end of things ?

My guess would be that he is just some "nonsense" (bs) artist,
and he just figured that maybe the problem might be Foveon,
so he told you that, without realizing you were going to come
in here and repeat what he said, and that was going to end up
going back, full circle via Foveon, Inc ... back to his boss.

These people were saying June or July, when the receptionist
was saying September. In other words, the receptionist at Sigma
USA is the smartest person there. Maybe, perhaps.

The camera comes from Japan. That's where the real answers
are, I'd guess.

I would just forget about it. It's par for the course as far as
marketing types are concerned, in my opinion.

 

[Ulysses]

Sam -

You know I appreciate your hard work and share your interest in these things.

I'm glad that you called back to Tom. After all, we don't know if he reads the forum or not, but he seems to get detailed info about its contents and some of the conversations here.

If that's so, then I can understand his not being willing to share more information before its time, and his seeming to be "standoff-ish". His business is to promote and to protect his information. That's pretty much the job description.

That said, your apology didn't sound very apologetic. So it's a GOOD thing that you were able to just swallow it and call him back, resolve the issues, leave off blaming one another and with the happy invitation to see him at the show. That is going to be VERY COOL, if you take advantage of it.

And imagine the fun you'll have at being one of the first here to actually have some hands-on experience with the camera.

Yours was a good example of how things can go wrong where there is miscommunication, and at the SAME time, how to promptly FIX IT when the misunderstandings are perpetuated. That last part is what really matters as we're always going to make mistakes. It's how we fix 'em that really generates the respect of your peers.

Good going for both you and for Tom.

Thanks for the post.

--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

 

[Dolan Halbrook]

Well....

I just spoke to Tom again at Sigma - and he was really upset with me.

It appears that he feels I misquoted him in my inital conversation.
He says he has gotten in some trouble because of what I said. He
has not personally seen my initial post, but he is well aware of it.

Let me be VERY clear with everyone - including Tom should he read
this post.

Tom told me in my previous conversation, and I am quoting here,
"There is a delay in the sensor production and they are behind in
their shipment".

He says he did not mention FOVEON. And he is correct - he did not.

However - who else would be behind in this regard? Sigma?

How about National Semiconductor? From what I understand, Foveon just designed the chip, they aren't fabbing it. They're leaving that to NS, who has a big investment in Foveon.

Given that this chip design is quite different than anything else, NS is probably having difficulty tooling up for its production.

Just a guess, but I think it makes sense.

--Dolan

--- http://www.reneeanddolan.net ---

 

[Ron Parr]

So how do we make sense of this? If it's just double-talk to hide a National Semiconductor problem, then how do we reconcile this with Phil's quote:

"The manufacturing of the X3 image sensor is not limiting the delivery of the SD9 cameras into the market. "

So, what could it be?

• Somebody has their story wrong?
• Some sensor-related part is holding things up?
• Some issue related to the packaging or transportion of the sensors?
• Some issue involving the training of the people working with the sensors?

Grumble... Too much speculation. Not enough cameras...

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/

 

[Samuel Pyrtle]

Sam -

You know I appreciate your hard work and share your interest in
these things.

I'm glad that you called back to Tom. After all, we don't know if
he reads the forum or not, but he seems to get detailed info about
its contents and some of the conversations here.

If that's so, then I can understand his not being willing to share
more information before its time, and his seeming to be
"standoff-ish". His business is to promote and to protect his
information. That's pretty much the job description.

That said, your apology didn't sound very apologetic. So it's a
GOOD thing that you were able to just swallow it and call him back,
resolve the issues, leave off blaming one another and with the
happy invitation to see him at the show. That is going to be VERY
COOL, if you take advantage of it.

And imagine the fun you'll have at being one of the first here to
actually have some hands-on experience with the camera.

Yours was a good example of how things can go wrong where there is
miscommunication, and at the SAME time, how to promptly FIX IT when
the misunderstandings are perpetuated. That last part is what
really matters as we're always going to make mistakes. It's how we
fix 'em that really generates the respect of your peers.

Good going for both you and for Tom.

Thanks for the post.

--

Ulysses
Repository of Some of My Stuff
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4291269101

I'm an uncle!!!

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

 

[Samuel Pyrtle]

So how do we make sense of this? If it's just double-talk to hide
a National Semiconductor problem, then how do we reconcile this
with Phil's quote:

"The manufacturing of the X3 image sensor is not limiting the
delivery of the SD9 cameras into the market. "

So, what could it be?

I haven't the foggiest. I am leaving it up to whomever - and whatever. I know what Phil had to say - and I am just gonna let things be what they may.

• Somebody has their story wrong?
• Some sensor-related part is holding things up?
• Some issue related to the packaging or transportion of the sensors?
• Some issue involving the training of the people working with the

sensors?

???? - I agree... We may never know.

Grumble... Too much speculation. Not enough cameras...

You got that right - Maybe they will be rolling in soon... =)
For me - my part of speculating is done - finise - finito. (you get the point).

I am just sitting by my door, 24-hrs a day, waiting on the UPS guy!

Ha Ha!

(although that is not tooooo far from the truth!)

;-0

-Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

 

[tim martin]

I am just sitting by my door, 24-hrs a day, waiting on the UPS guy!

Ha Ha!

(although that is not tooooo far from the truth!)

I might be wrong, but I would guess you won't have the camera
until March.

But if you keep sitting by the door like that, by December you
will have become one of the most active Sigma SD9 bashers
in this forum.

Mostly I am just teasing, but not entirely. Figure March, and if
it comes before then it will merely be a pleasant surprise.

 

[Samuel Pyrtle]

I might be wrong, but I would guess you won't have the camera
until March.

Lord I hope not! I have pre-ordered with several vendors - early on. So - hopefully one of them will come through. =)

But if you keep sitting by the door like that, by December you
will have become one of the most active Sigma SD9 bashers
in this forum.

Never! ;-)

I am very excited about this camera - and if I have to wait until March, that's okay. Not preferred - but okay. Who knows, maybe by then the next gen of the X3 will be announced and I can go stand in that line! ha!

Mostly I am just teasing, but not entirely. Figure March, and if
it comes before then it will merely be a pleasant surprise.

Thanks...
Sam =)

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

 

[rick decker]

Oh Yes.,. and PS:

What lenses did you buy...I may be intersted in buying them.

Well....

I just spoke to Tom again at Sigma - and he was really upset with me.

It appears that he feels I misquoted him in my inital conversation.
He says he has gotten in some trouble because of what I said. He
has not personally seen my initial post, but he is well aware of it.

Let me be VERY clear with everyone - including Tom should he read
this post.

Tom told me in my previous conversation, and I am quoting here,
"There is a delay in the sensor production and they are behind in
their shipment".

He says he did not mention FOVEON. And he is correct - he did not.

However - who else would be behind in this regard? Sigma?

I told Tom just now, on the phone: "Tom, you said to me that there
were delays in the sensor production - and you did not mention
Foveon. You are right and I am wrong. I am sorry that I misquoted
you. But if Foveon is not behind in the sensor production, then
who is?"

He just kind of did a "umm,,, ugh,,,, I don't have anything else
to add"

So what does that mean? Where is he trying to back peddle to?

Notice he didn't say "I never said there were sensor production
delays" - because he did say that. He simply will not say who is
behind the sensor manufacturing delay.

And I tell you what - he wasn't very nice. And I can understand
him being upset if he got into trouble - and I threw in the
Foveon name when he didn't. It was wrong on my part to mention
Foveon when he didn't. I made a 'logical assumption'. I
apologized PROFUSELY to him. I told him I would make a post to
correct my mistake. And I am doing so - right now.

However, he was not very nice - at the beginning or the end of the
conversation. He continued to be stand-offish.

So - he does not deny he said 'sensor production delays' - he just
denies he said "Foveon" was at fault. I agree.

But then the question is - who is behind the production delay?

I tell ya - I am really upset. I would never mis-quote on purpose.
I would never repeat something I thought was told to me in
confidence or that I thought would get someone else in trouble.

I am rethinking everything with Sigma now. I have already invested
over $2000 in lenses, etc - all useless without the camera. And I
do not expect Sigma to ship 3000 camera on the release date. Or
even 300. I expect the momentum to build somewhat over time. Just
as Tom indicated to me last week. So that is not an issue with
me.... I would like one sooner than later - but I can be patient.
And whatever the reason - sensor delay or not - in time, all will
be fine.

I am not Cleo - and do not read minds. I can only go on what I am
told. And I was wrong to assume 'Foveon' was behind it. For that,
I apologize - to Tom, Foveon, Phil (for having to double check me),
and all of you as well.

If Foveon is not the cause behind the delay, then who is? or what
is? And I wouldn't expect to be treated like some piriah by the
person who told them stuff in the first place. If there is some
delay - please explain it. Don't just say "ummm,,,,, ugh,,,,,".
Say it all - or say nothing.

And when someone makes a mistake (like I did by mentioning Foveon
when Tom didn't), and offers a very sincere apology, be gracious
enough to except it. Why continue to be rude?

I steaming -

I need to go and do some thinking.

-Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

 

[Samuel Pyrtle]

Oh Yes.,. and PS:

What lenses did you buy...I may be intersted in buying them.

Last week, I received the sigma:

50mm f/2.8 Macro EX
70-200mm f/2.8 APO EX HSM Telephoto
50-500mm f/4-6.3 APO HSM EX Telephoto
1.4 teleconverter

Pre-ordered the Sigma:

SD9 of course
new EF 500 DG Super Flash

So - I appreciate the offer - but I will keep what I have and wait for the SD9 and flash unit to come home to me.... I already have some pieces waiting for them....

=)
Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

 

[jdavis37]

Not to undermine anything learned or said thus far but (a) Sigma origiannly said 10/25 for their intial ship date ( without mention of quantity ) and (b) every dslr that has come out this year has had similar I can'twaititis. Just normal Christmas Eve type anticipation and understandable. Trick is to not let the desire to see/own/buy/ etc the SD9 overide the logic of the situation.. it will probably be 2003 before there is sufficient quantity to lay your hands on one and by then the next round of "cameras coming out and pre hype" will be underway. I found it frustrating all summer that I could never actually try out a D60 D100 or S2 locally and I live near a city with a population of 500,000 people. The inability to try one out definitely kept me from buying. Now I am going to wait again until the SD9 comes out, is reviewed and enough people buy it to see how it fares in real world usage.. and may aslo keep watch on the Pentax. prices are indeed dropping and for amateurs like me who have mouths to feed that is a good thing. Point here is to not let the desire to have an SD9 create a fever of frustration. it may be a while before they are available in number!

 

[jeff-c]

Two mistakes:

Tom at Sigma shouldn't so be openly with you. I suspect he is rather junior. Anyone who has worked for a large corporation should realize this already.

Secondly you should have protected his identity by not quoting his name. Whatever you posted already put him in trouble because he said more than what he is supposed to say.

 

[rick decker]

Well, as we wait.....might as well talk lenses. 50mm sounds like a great choice. I will get it over the 105 given the 1.7 conversion factor. 70-200 I posted that of the three or four sets of images I have seen from D60, I was really impressed. What about wide angle? For landscape it is either 15-30 or trying stitching which is a solution that may not always be available. What about the 50-500. Its rating from photozone wasn't that great overall but given the range, probably very good. The sharpness and the weight both scare me!

Oh Yes.,. and PS:

What lenses did you buy...I may be intersted in buying them.

Last week, I received the sigma:

50mm f/2.8 Macro EX
70-200mm f/2.8 APO EX HSM Telephoto
50-500mm f/4-6.3 APO HSM EX Telephoto
1.4 teleconverter

Pre-ordered the Sigma:

SD9 of course
new EF 500 DG Super Flash

So - I appreciate the offer - but I will keep what I have and wait
for the SD9 and flash unit to come home to me.... I already have
some pieces waiting for them....

=)
Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

 

[Leah]

Boy is that a good way to describe it. I think my temp is a 104. I preordered the camera on March 10th and I'm a fairly patient person...but I'm getting frustrated. If there is no sensor delay, according to Foveon, then I suspect that Sigma is watching all the nit picking here, thank you Karl, and ironing out the software to try to tweak the "problems". I would take a tweaked software revision in a month or so, just ship a reasonable quanity of cameras soon. Isn't that logical? I'm probably blinded by anticipation at this late date.

Canoga tells me there is one confirmed order before mine...wonder who it is? Is it you Samual? If they only receive one, I hope the person who gets it will post their experiences ASAP.

frustrated and just venting,
Didn't anyone else think my Jack Schitt link was funny?
Leah

Not to undermine anything learned or said thus far but (a) Sigma
origiannly said 10/25 for their intial ship date ( without mention
of quantity ) and (b) every dslr that has come out this year has
had similar I can'twaititis. Just normal Christmas Eve type
anticipation and understandable. Trick is to not let the desire to
see/own/buy/ etc the SD9 overide the logic of the situation.. it
will probably be 2003 before there is sufficient quantity to lay
your hands on one and by then the next round of "cameras coming out
and pre hype" will be underway. I found it frustrating all summer
that I could never actually try out a D60 D100 or S2 locally and I
live near a city with a population of 500,000 people. The inability
to try one out definitely kept me from buying. Now I am going to
wait again until the SD9 comes out, is reviewed and enough people
buy it to see how it fares in real world usage.. and may aslo keep
watch on the Pentax. prices are indeed dropping and for amateurs
like me who have mouths to feed that is a good thing. Point here is
to not let the desire to have an SD9 create a fever of frustration.
it may be a while before they are available in number!

 

[Samuel Pyrtle]

Two mistakes:

Tom at Sigma shouldn't so be openly with you. I suspect he is
rather junior. Anyone who has worked for a large corporation should
realize this already.

Secondly you should have protected his identity by not quoting his
name. Whatever you posted already put him in trouble because he
said more than what he is supposed to say.

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179

 

[Leah]

He explained the circumstances of the phone call with great detail...I don't think he is at fault. Someone in Tom's position should know he will be quoted to others who are also interested ..."he said more than what he was suppose to say" (you-know-who).

Leah

Two mistakes:

Tom at Sigma shouldn't so be openly with you. I suspect he is
rather junior. Anyone who has worked for a large corporation should
realize this already.

Secondly you should have protected his identity by not quoting his
name. Whatever you posted already put him in trouble because he
said more than what he is supposed to say.

 

[Samuel Pyrtle]

Well, as we wait.....might as well talk lenses. 50mm sounds like a
great choice. I will get it over the 105 given the 1.7 conversion
factor. 70-200 I posted that of the three or four sets of images I
have seen from D60, I was really impressed.

I love it too! And I haven't even taken any pics with it! HA!

But the weight and size is nice - and all the reviews make it seem like it is a great lense.

What about wide angle?

For landscape it is either 15-30 or trying stitching which is a
solution that may not always be available.

That is something I am still waiting on - a good wide angle. I am not sure what to do about that. I would welcome anyone else's ideas on this - perhaps MAC? He seems to know a lot about lenses.

What about the 50-500.

Its rating from photozone wasn't that great overall but given the
range, probably very good. The sharpness and the weight both scare
me!

Well - Everything I have heard about this lense is good. It is heavy for sure. But seems to be quite sharp at wide and tele.

See Jaja's web page here - do you know him? He has a lot of good stuff on his website. You will find him posting in the Olympus forum and other forums. I have learned a lot from him. He has taken a lot of photos with his 50-500mm and loves it. Here is his web link:

http://www.belgiumdigital.com/

Click on the link and then click on the "BD Crew Albums" on the left-hand side menu. Then click on the Canon D60. There, you will see a lot of photos - with the 50-500 in several different galleries.

Also - see this link for info from LoneStar Digital on the 50-500mm:

http://www.lonestardigital.com/Sigma_50-500.htm

But I must say - Jaja's pics and his reputation helped push me into that lense. Plus, I did a search in the canon forum for this lense and read a lot. You should do that too. There are some INCREDIBLE galleries for this lense.

Andreas P took these shots with the Sigma 70-200 & Sigma 50-500mm- take a look:

http://www.bateleureagle.com/index.htm

Hope these great photos from these nice people in DPR help you decide - they all sure helped me.

I mean - Just look at Andreas P's eagles! WOW WOW WOW!!!!!!

=0

Sam

--
Sam Pyrtle
F707 Lover
[email protected]

http://www3.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=11179