Tips on images and how to improve?

[ChrisR753]

My wildlife setup consists of:
Canon 7D

Canon EF 400mm 5.6

Sigma 150-600



I am consistently getting inconsistent results

I may be being too hard on myself, but I'm also starting to feel iffy on the 7D, and the Sigma, and I'm not sure what to do. (IE, would using my 6D FF be better in this light? Do I just need a 600mm f4 instead cuz more reach + f4? etc)

I've deduced it down to two example shots with the EF 400 5.6 to completely eliminate the sigma's 3rd party stuff.

The example shots are 'technically' perfect, ie 1/shutter speed, even for the APS-C equivalent focal length.

The first falls completely apart if you zoom into 100%, yet, was substantially closer to the camera in real world.





The second was WAY across the lake, and holds up way better (or at least to my eyes maybe I'm wrong?).





Second example that is less concrete and has more factors involved, is the sigma with these ducks. Images taken back to back, with one shot AF, is this motion blur from me? I can't tell there is just so much going on with the lighting, ISO, etc.

First alright one:





Second one falls apart:

 

[tdbmd]

The original 7D is a really good camera, I owned one for several years but the newer sensors have improved. Even my 7D MkII is better, both in image quality and AF.

 

[John Crowe]

For the ducks I would increase shutter speed slightly, just in case. It is possible you may be getting heat haze, though it does appear to be early morning.

At this point an improvement in sensor would yield the most gain. There are millions of Canon 24MP APS-C available, but I'd go to the top of the pile and get a 32MP 90D. The 6D II would offer no gain over the 7D.

After upgrading the camera then you could try an EF 1.4x II or III with your 400/5.6. Down the road you could consider one of the Canon EF 500 or 600mm lenses. I do think you will be surprised by what the 90D will do though.

If you want to transition to mirrorless a used R7 has virtually the same sensor as the 90D, and should provide better AF and high ISO performance. EF lenses can be used seamlessly on RF with a Canon adapter.

 

[Martin_99]

My wildlife setup consists of:
Canon 7D

Canon EF 400mm 5.6

Sigma 150-600

I am consistently getting inconsistent results

You camera was released 15 years ago. Even with today's gear you will not get 100% consistency with relatively demanding genre like wildlife shooting. But such testing photos as standing tree should be 100%. of course

I may be being too hard on myself, but I'm also starting to feel iffy on the 7D, and the Sigma, and I'm not sure what to do. (IE, would using my 6D FF be better in this light? Do I just need a 600mm f4 instead cuz more reach + f4? etc)

What is your budget, did you consider modern mirrorless camera?

I've deduced it down to two example shots with the EF 400 5.6 to completely eliminate the sigma's 3rd party stuff.

The example shots are 'technically' perfect, ie 1/shutter speed, even for the APS-C equivalent focal length.

The first falls completely apart if you zoom into 100%, yet, was substantially closer to the camera in real world.

Seems like AF issue at first look. Did you check your camera/lenses for front/backfocus?

Two testing photos is very small testing group. Do you get such image allways when you try it? If not, what is the percentage roughly?

The second was WAY across the lake, and holds up way better (or at least to my eyes maybe I'm wrong?).



Second example that is less concrete and has more factors involved, is the sigma with these ducks. Images taken back to back, with one shot AF, is this motion blur from me? I can't tell there is just so much going on with the lighting, ISO, etc.

First alright one:



Second one falls apart:

Again, seems like AF issue to me, probably together with slight atmospheric disturbance (heat haze).

 

[Chris R-UK]

I shot wildlife with a Canon 7D for 5 years and got some very good photographs from it. I shot mostly with a Canon 100-400mm Mk1 which isn't as sharp a lens as your 400mm f/5.6 but is probably as good as your Sigma 150-600mm.

You can get better shots than these from your current gear. Others have pointed out potential issues with the duck shots, e.g. atmospheric distortion, but let me just point out an issue with your tree shots.

The 400mm f/5.6 isn't image stabilised, the Sigma lens is. You are therefore more likely to get camera shake issues with the Canon lens. You are using a shutter speed of 1/640 which is the minimum recommended shutter speed to avoid camera shake with the 400mm f/5.6. However, it doesn't automatically eliminate camera shake, and I think that your first tree shot may be exhibiting some camera shake. I would have tried to use a minimum shutter speed of 1/1000 with the unstabilised lens.

You can improve your ability to avoid camera shake by concentrating on your holding technique. Brace your camera against your face and tuck both elbows in, then shoot as you are just finishing breathing out.

I think that your shutter speed is also a bit low on the duck shots and there might be a little motion blur in the images. Again, I would have used 1/1000 for those shots.

Don't be afraid of increasing the ISO - I was perfectly happy using my 7D at ISO 1600 and would go to ISO 3200 if necessary. Nowadays, with AI Noise Reduction in post processing, I would be happy to go to ISO 6400 or even 12,800. So increase your shutter speed and increase the ISO as well if necessary.

Don't expect a dramatic improvement in image quality if you upgrade. You will probably get some small improvement in low light noise from a modern sensor, and more resolution gives you more room for cropping, but modern mirrorless cameras mainly give you other things for wildlife - much faster shooting rates and much better AF for fast moving targets.

If you are going to upgrade, I would go for a Canon mirrorless camera like an R7 with IBIS - that will give you image stabilisation for your 400mm f/5.6. If you want to stay with DSLRs, the 90D is an excellent choice.

Finally, two other things. Getting closer to your targets will have a very significant on the quality of the images that you get, and I personally have had problems like yours with every new long focal length lens that I have bought - it just seems to take time to work out how best to hold the lens and to understand its weak points and strong points.

 

[Krusty79]

I really don't see what you are talking about. What is the problem with the first tree photo?

What do you mean exactly when you say one of the images "falls apart?" Are you referring to the exposure, the focus or something else?

In the duck shots, 1/500 should be fast enough for slow moving ducks. When you say the 2nd shot "falls apart," that image actually has fewer blown highlights. So, what did you mean by "falling apart?"

 

[ChrisR753]

I shot wildlife with a Canon 7D for 5 years and got some very good photographs from it. I shot mostly with a Canon 100-400mm Mk1 which isn't as sharp a lens as your 400mm f/5.6 but is probably as good as your Sigma 150-600mm.

You can get better shots than these from your current gear. Others have pointed out potential issues with the duck shots, e.g. atmospheric distortion, but let me just point out an issue with your tree shots.

The 400mm f/5.6 isn't image stabilised, the Sigma lens is. You are therefore more likely to get camera shake issues with the Canon lens. You are using a shutter speed of 1/640 which is the minimum recommended shutter speed to avoid camera shake with the 400mm f/5.6. However, it doesn't automatically eliminate camera shake, and I think that your first tree shot may be exhibiting some camera shake. I would have tried to use a minimum shutter speed of 1/1000 with the unstabilised lens.

You can improve your ability to avoid camera shake by concentrating on your holding technique. Brace your camera against your face and tuck both elbows in, then shoot as you are just finishing breathing out.

I think that your shutter speed is also a bit low on the duck shots and there might be a little motion blur in the images. Again, I would have used 1/1000 for those shots.

Don't be afraid of increasing the ISO - I was perfectly happy using my 7D at ISO 1600 and would go to ISO 3200 if necessary. Nowadays, with AI Noise Reduction in post processing, I would be happy to go to ISO 6400 or even 12,800. So increase your shutter speed and increase the ISO as well if necessary.

Don't expect a dramatic improvement in image quality if you upgrade. You will probably get some small improvement in low light noise from a modern sensor, and more resolution gives you more room for cropping, but modern mirrorless cameras mainly give you other things for wildlife - much faster shooting rates and much better AF for fast moving targets.

If you are going to upgrade, I would go for a Canon mirrorless camera like an R7 with IBIS - that will give you image stabilisation for your 400mm f/5.6. If you want to stay with DSLRs, the 90D is an excellent choice.

Finally, two other things. Getting closer to your targets will have a very significant on the quality of the images that you get, and I personally have had problems like yours with every new long focal length lens that I have bought - it just seems to take time to work out how best to hold the lens and to understand its weak points and strong points.

Thank you all very much for the replies and tips. I am starting to lean toward it being sloppy technique like ChrisR-UK and a few others mentioned too. There was heat haze that day no doubt there so that is an additional factor.

I'm just finding it so difficult to get nice sharp shots and am (I think?) struggling to hold everything 100% still without a tripod. I had used a monopod that day, and I shot some test shots like below on a monopod, but am still having trouble with motion blur even at say 1/1200.

Any additional tips to help? See below even on a tripod it's hit and miss sometimes see the stitching on the black label...first one seems blurry, second one is okay.

And I do agree, I am photographing often very far away, in poorish light, getting closer like this pole was within 16FT and in poorish light as well but there is a big difference and it holds up when zooming in (doesn't 'fall apart' as I would say)

I did pull out my T7 with 24MP, and (like Chris R-UK mentioned) I was surprised to not see a huge difference in IQ...It is the cheapest rebel, so I give it that and it's somewhat reassuring.

I bought the lens ~6 months ago, new, from B&H so I'm hesitant to blame the lens...

Again, thank you everyone for the replies, it's a challenge to understand what I'm doing wrong and or could improve on without your help!



7D Tripod but some blur or mirror slap on the label stitching?


Notice the lower stitching on the black label. Is this motion blur? Focus issue? Mirror slap? Just high ISO? I am legitimately not sure and very puzzled :\



7D Tripod good


Gone here (I think this was w/ Live view) but with a much lower shutter speed?



T7 Tripod


T7 shot at similar settings. I don't see a massive improvement in resolution unless I'm really going blind

 

[Bob]

My wildlife setup consists of:
Canon 7D

Canon EF 400mm 5.6

Sigma 150-600

I am consistently getting inconsistent results

I may be being too hard on myself, but I'm also starting to feel iffy on the 7D, and the Sigma, and I'm not sure what to do. (IE, would using my 6D FF be better in this light? Do I just need a 600mm f4 instead cuz more reach + f4? etc)

I've deduced it down to two example shots with the EF 400 5.6 to completely eliminate the sigma's 3rd party stuff.

The example shots are 'technically' perfect, ie 1/shutter speed, even for the APS-C equivalent focal length.

That doesn't make it "perfect". Shutter set to 1/focal length is only a guideline, and a minimum value at that.

The first falls completely apart if you zoom into 100%, yet, was substantially closer to the camera in real world.

For crisp details at 100%, one would also need to use a very solid tripod, a remote shutter release, and a pre-flipped mirror if the camera has one. Standard practice for landscape specialists.

The second was WAY across the lake, and holds up way better (or at least to my eyes maybe I'm wrong?).



Second example that is less concrete and has more factors involved, is the sigma with these ducks. Images taken back to back, with one shot AF, is this motion blur from me? I can't tell there is just so much going on with the lighting, ISO, etc.

First alright one:



Second one falls apart:

 

[Bill Ferris]

Chris has given the OP some great advice on how to get more from their current kit. Incorporating that advice in their shooting should pay dividends. It will also help to develop a skill set and mental approach to wildlife photography that can be applied to any equipment upgrade the OP makes.

I'll offer two additional pieces of advice. Looking at the first set of images shared in the top post, they appear to be straight-out-of-camera JPEGs. If that's the case, I'd recommend shooting raw and doing the image processing out-of-camera in a photo editing app. The reason is that sharpening and noise reduction are applied globally in-camera. Sharpening is applied to the sky, water and out-of-focus areas that don't need it. Noise reduction is applied to the subject and that softens detail. Shooting raw and processing your images in an app will allow you to maximize the quality of your images.

The second piece of advice I'll offer is to position your camera & lens at eye level with the subject. When photographing geese on a pond, that means getting the lens just above water level. Sometimes, a change in perspective is all that's needed to elevate and OK photo into something special.

 

[John Crowe]

These test situations are all over the map. Extremely high ISO (1250, i think it was) destroyed image quality in the first one. The second is best because it is at ISO 100. In the last image you can't compare the T7 at ISO 800 and expect to see better image quality than the 7D at ISO 100.

To properly test your lenses and cameras all settings must remain the same, and ideally use a tripod, with lowest possible ISO. Once you know which combinations work the best, then you can work on techniques to provide more consistent results.

High ISO performance has improved greatly since the 7D and T7. Something like the 90D will be better, R7 even more so, apparently.

This is why my best images have been taken using a tripod. I use ISO 100 for 97% of my images. In daylight situations I have never gone higher than ISO 800. Once I realized that a monopod just doesn't work as well I pretty much stopped using it. If I can't get the photo handheld, I pull out the tripod.

 

[gordonpritchard]

Both geese shots are out of focus and have blown light areas. The trees aren't very sharp either.

This is a shot from a pokey bridge camera taken at a similar focal length and under similar lighting conditions to your geese for you to compare sharpness:



I suggest you work on your focussing, shoot RAW, and work on your post processing skills.



--
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"View their gallery before accepting their comments."
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Some of my snaps can be viewed here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gordon_pritchard/albums/

 

[DavidWright2010]

This is clearly a too-high ISO problem. Don't use ISO 6400 with that old sensor.


Left - ISO 100, right - ISO 6400

You might try using some modern NR. I use DxO for raw developing for its NR and Topaz Sharpen AI for sharpening.

David

 

[Bill Ferris]

Thank you all very much for the replies and tips. I am starting to lean toward it being sloppy technique like ChrisR-UK and a few others mentioned too. There was heat haze that day no doubt there so that is an additional factor.

I'm just finding it so difficult to get nice sharp shots and am (I think?) struggling to hold everything 100% still without a tripod. I had used a monopod that day, and I shot some test shots like below on a monopod, but am still having trouble with motion blur even at say 1/1200.

Any additional tips to help? See below even on a tripod it's hit and miss sometimes see the stitching on the black label...first one seems blurry, second one is okay.

And I do agree, I am photographing often very far away, in poorish light, getting closer like this pole was within 16FT and in poorish light as well but there is a big difference and it holds up when zooming in (doesn't 'fall apart' as I would say)

I did pull out my T7 with 24MP, and (like Chris R-UK mentioned) I was surprised to not see a huge difference in IQ...It is the cheapest rebel, so I give it that and it's somewhat reassuring.

I bought the lens ~6 months ago, new, from B&H so I'm hesitant to blame the lens...

Again, thank you everyone for the replies, it's a challenge to understand what I'm doing wrong and or could improve on without your help!

7D Tripod but some blur or mirror slap on the label stitching?


Notice the lower stitching on the black label. Is this motion blur? Focus issue? Mirror slap? Just high ISO? I am legitimately not sure and very puzzled :\

If this is uncropped, I'd attribute this to corner softness. That's an issue with all consumer lenses but typically doesn't affect wildlife & bird subjects positioned near the center of the frame.

There's also a loss of overall resolution due to the weak exposure. Though, if you look at the detail in the gray column at the center of the frame, it's pretty good. If a bird had been in the middle of the frame where the column is, that would be a totally usable photo. Run it through Lightroom's Enhance tool and you'd never know this was a low-light image.

7D Tripod good


Gone here (I think this was w/ Live view) but with a much lower shutter speed?

The stronger exposure (slower shutter speed/longer exposure time) put 6 additional stops of light on the sensor. That noticably reduced the visibility of noise and improved overall resolution. This photo has the best detail in the column grain. There's still a hint of softness in the upper-right corner. But, again, that's not typically where your subject will be.

T7 Tripod


T7 shot at similar settings. I don't see a massive improvement in resolution unless I'm really going blind

This last image is halfway between the first & second in exposure and total light used to make the photo. It's also halfway between the two in terms of overall resolution. The corner softness is present but the detail in the center of the frame is between that seen in the first photo and second.

--
Bill Ferris Photography
Flagstaff, AZ

 

[ChrisR753]

Chris has given the OP some great advice on how to get more from their current kit. Incorporating that advice in their shooting should pay dividends. It will also help to develop a skill set and mental approach to wildlife photography that can be applied to any equipment upgrade the OP makes.

I'll offer two additional pieces of advice. Looking at the first set of images shared in the top post, they appear to be straight-out-of-camera JPEGs. If that's the case, I'd recommend shooting raw and doing the image processing out-of-camera in a photo editing app. The reason is that sharpening and noise reduction are applied globally in-camera. Sharpening is applied to the sky, water and out-of-focus areas that don't need it. Noise reduction is applied to the subject and that softens detail. Shooting raw and processing your images in an app will allow you to maximize the quality of your images.

The second piece of advice I'll offer is to position your camera & lens at eye level with the subject. When photographing geese on a pond, that means getting the lens just above water level. Sometimes, a change in perspective is all that's needed to elevate and OK photo into something special.

I have learned SO much in the past few days from everyone's feedback, so again thank you to everyone who commented.

RE to Bill Ferris, what an amazing tip, even w/ those SOOC JPEG's I had never thought in my 'editing workflow' to manually only sharpen the subject via mask. That helps even the JPEGs significantly. And yes correct again, they are JPEG's SOOC, I'll try raw + JPEG next time as well.

Some realizations and things I've learned below. Maybe it might help someone in the future:
I have been shooting my 7D's in Spot AF mode, I read up on the different types, there is Spot which takes a extremely small portion (few 'pixels') of the image / viewfinder to grab focus. It looks like a box, within a box. I learned this is good for say shooting through fences or brush, but can make the camera struggle if I try focusing on a dark part of a goose for example. Switching to normal single point AF seems to be more better, and should hopefully let the camera see more of the scene and get (again hopefully / maybe) a more consistent focus.

Next, the rope test shots from above are A) Yes John Crowe is correct I should have posted the same settings (or as close as I could) w/ the T7, but B) I didn't know the 7D has some sort of issue w/ shooting in live view with "live focus" see the images below, but there is a substantial degradation in quality between live view and viewfinder shooting, with the exact same settings (or very nearly). So much so both my 7D's exhibited this behavior, but my T7 and 50D did not. Switching the 7D's to "Quick Mode" focusing helped, but still wasn't as good as viewfinder, you can see below. So those from the 7D's above with the rope I'd just toss, if I shot them with the viewfinder I imagine they would be sharper.

Next was back to Chris R-UK's point. Looking through the exif data of all the duck/goose photos I took that day, the recorded focusing distance was consistently 70-80M, or well over 100ft away. Yet I'm expecting (my fault for expectations) the same level of detail with a bird filling the frame at say 20M or so. Which, is actually impressive I got some reasonably sharp shots on a nearly 20 year old camera, that far away, with heat haze and a sloppy technique (For example in the original post, the duck photos were at about 70M focus distance.

The best sharpest photos of the day were shot at 20M focus distance away or about 65ft in very good light.

Last, I also realized I shot every image at -2/3stop to prevent peaking, but I realize now that may also contribute to noise showing up even more than just a normal 0 exposure.

On to the results below. I did some substantial testing, because I wanted to see if the highest iso really did reduce actual sharpness. I had heard that technically it won't but the precieved sharpness declines as noise gets added, but with the conflicting rope shots, I wanted to just see.

Once I figured out the live view issue, I overall wasn't that surprised. The iso 6400 shots were still sharp, yes quite noisy. I had heard over exposing via lower shutter speeds by say 1/3 stop can help the camera gather more light and reduce noise a bit, I didn't find it to be the case, it seemed to brighten the image up and exacerbate the noise weirdly.

Regarding upgrading / differences between a higher resolution sensor:

There is a noise difference between the 7D & T7 at max iso and 3200, the difference follows each other to about iso 400-800 range, where they seem on par with one another.

Correct to everyone who said it would have less noise, it does, but I was more interested in sharpness, which like Chris R-UK hinted, and I saw kind of in my last post, it's not a substantial gain jumping up to 24MP, with the caveat it's a quite old processor, sensor, etc. Yes I'm sure a 90D / mirrorless would be even better, but the noise just doesn't bother me super much, especially with the de-noise tools available.

All shots below:
Locked down on tripod

AV-Same settings with a slight shutter speed diff here or there but nothing huge

Same ISO's

Live view for T7 and 2-sec timer

Viewfinder + 2-sec timer via wireless remote for 7D

You'll probably note it seems the T7 is closer to the chart. I'm not 100% what is causing this, but the tripod certainly did not move.


Live view issues / Live view focusing issue


Exact shot I just turned live view off


7D Max ISO; no in camera noise reduction


T7 max iso; no in camera noise reduction

I posted for help, as most of the pictures I took where somewhat similar to the first post, but the trip wasn't a total wash. Looking back, I think the photo below summarizes everything I've learned (getting closer, better technique, better lighting, lower expectations) except the AF focus point and live view stuff.

I just wish I could get these more consistently I think everyone's input will help me do that!

Thanks again to everyone who commented and posted, I value it, I am looking forward to your thoughts or tips once more.



Roughly an 80% crop of this image. I'm feeling confident I could get this level of sharpness even at ISO 800 possibly even 1600 with proper techniques!