thoughts on 70D based EOS-M

[JamesErik1971]

Some folks can continue hoping for a 70D based EOS-M. I highly doubt that. Remember canon brought you a base model level, 650D sensor EOS-M and tried to charge $800 for it. The premium is on size and build, not performance. Not to mention canon is in this to make money, and no one is going to buy a $1X99, mirrorless system with few lenses (mostly slow zooms), and these things just cost too much to produce. I am sure some folks will always scream they'd buy the moon for a dollar if only canon would sell it to them. Reality is canon and nikon are late to mirrorless and their first offerings were complete and utter commercial failures (great cameras though).

I've been around cameras for a very very long time, and I saw a similar transition happen with digital. Canon and nikon are in a tough spot, and until full frame sensor cameras can sell for $500 they are in a holding pattern. I expect EOS-M2 to be a cheaper (plastic) version of EOS-M, possibly only available in japan and europe, for $499. it would sell like hot cakes.

 

[rrccad]

JamesErik1971 wrote:

Some folks can continue hoping for a 70D based EOS-M. I highly doubt that. Remember canon brought you a base model level, 650D sensor EOS-M and tried to charge $800 for it. The premium is on size and build, not performance. Not to mention canon is in this to make money, and no one is going to buy a $1X99, mirrorless system with few lenses (mostly slow zooms), and these things just cost too much to produce. I am sure some folks will always scream they'd buy the moon for a dollar if only canon would sell it to them. Reality is canon and nikon are late to mirrorless and their first offerings were complete and utter commercial failures (great cameras though).

I've been around cameras for a very very long time, and I saw a similar transition happen with digital. Canon and nikon are in a tough spot, and until full frame sensor cameras can sell for $500 they are in a holding pattern. I expect EOS-M2 to be a cheaper (plastic) version of EOS-M, possibly only available in japan and europe, for $499. it would sell like hot cakes.

well, once the lithography,etc is created for the sensor, as far as I know.. it's just a matter of production costs. the 70D sales alone will probably pay off the bulk of the amortized R&D in the technology.

The production costs of a 70D sensor would be nearly the same as a 60D sensor as it's really the sensor size that determines it. it may be a bit more expensive if canon is running it on their 180nm line versus their traditional APS-C sensor line, but not dramatically so.

 

[Jonathan Brady]

Just how much does it cost to manufacture an M?

And how many different APSC sensor fab lines for you think Canon wants to run?

 

[JamesErik1971]

Jonathan Brady wrote:

Just how much does it cost to manufacture an M?

And how many different APSC sensor fab lines for you think Canon wants to run?

clearly more than a rebel. remember explicit costs + implicit costs = total cost.

economies of scale usually come after a hit product. unless you are saying canon should bet the APS-C farm on the EOS-M?

 

[JamesErik1971]

that's a good point but it doesn't take into account the hybrid AF.

 

[Jonathan Brady]

"clearly more than a rebel"? Citation please.

Also, regarding betting the farm, I was talking about sensor fab, not camera production. Canon appears to be a big proponent of getting as much life out of one sensor as it can. It makes sense based on their history that they'd continue to do this moving forward meaning if/when there is an M successor, it would stand to reason that it would have the new 20mp dual pixel sensor in it.

I would hazard a guess that the new Rebels and even the SL2 (should one come out) will all have the new sensor.

 

[rrccad]

JamesErik1971 wrote:

that's a good point but it doesn't take into account the hybrid AF.

which is a processor that would already have it's development paid for.

the only cost associated really with the M is making it far more compact of a system board and layout than other canon DSLR's and finding a reasonable compromise. otherwise, you rip the guts out of a 70D, disable most of the control, mirror, PDAF/AE functions and just leave the liveview aspects in the firmware, and voila - you have a EOS-M

the amount of reuse between the various cameras I would suspect is quite high.

I also wouldn't be too alll surprised of DIGIC 6 has the phase detection on board as we see this tech moved throughout the canon lineup.

 

[JamesErik1971]

thats overly simplistic logic. Are you saying r&d is the only possible incease to production cost of a new product? and furthermore, things like increased failure rates, additional cost of materials, and so on are unknowable. but the fact is canon shoved their existing base model APS-C sensor in the EOS-M and sold it for way more MSRP. If they do the same with the 70D it wont be cheap. so are you ready to pay $1X99 for the next EOS-M?

 

[Lawrencew]

Given its prime raison d'être is to improve liveview performance, why would canon NOT put it in their next mirrorless camera?

It makes less sense to me to keep it just in DSLRs where in the case of something like the 70D most users will probably continue to use the OVF.

 

[sneakerpimp]

Jonathan Brady wrote:

Just how much does it cost to manufacture an M?

And how many different APSC sensor fab lines for you think Canon wants to run?

under $99 for the body only according to forum member Marco Nero.

 

[JamesErik1971]

Lawrencew wrote:

Given its prime raison d'être is to improve liveview performance, why would canon NOT put it in their next mirrorless camera?

It makes less sense to me to keep it just in DSLRs where in the case of something like the 70D most users will probably continue to use the OVF.

--
Regards
Lawrence
My Flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/lozwilkes/

that's also a good point. but it's just not in-line with the bottom line, IMO. canon wants the EOS-M line to be a high quality p&s, their mistake was charging a DSLR price. the camera sold out during the fire sales, and they have to address the price issue. if a 70D EOS-M comes out it will be something like a nikon V2, I suppose. but it will be priced into oblivion like the V2 as well and no one will buy it. this is all speculative, but I think canon is smarter than that. pros don't want "faux-pro" mirrorless cameras. we don't care about bulk and size, just performance and control.

 

[justmeMN]

Perhaps Canon will release two EOS M2s: A less expensive version with the SL1 / 100D sensor, and a more expensive version with the 70D sensor.

Or (more likely) perhaps the 70D sensor will be reserved for an EOS M3, in a year or so.

 

[rrccad]

JamesErik1971 wrote:

thats overly simplistic logic. Are you saying r&d is the only possible incease to production cost of a new product? and furthermore, things like increased failure rates, additional cost of materials, and so on are unknowable. but the fact is canon shoved their existing base model APS-C sensor in the EOS-M and sold it for way more MSRP. If they do the same with the 70D it wont be cheap. so are you ready to pay $1X99 for the next EOS-M?

highly unlikely as the MTBF engineering would have already been vetted on most of the parts for a DIGIC based camera system. DIGIC allows canon to fairly and rapidly engineer a camera and provide the analysis of durability and failure rates. most of that engineering is done via automated systems and design applications that are either in house or off the self. the human engineering and housing / placement would have to be done for the M however that's no different than any camera that canon produces.

May you also keep in mind that the 60D was far more at release date, so that really has little bearing on the M price. You're acting as if the 70D price is unusal and seemingly far more expensive than the prior models.

For example;

Canon 70D is expected to be around 129,800 versus the 60D at launch which was 139,800 Yen, the EOS-M was released at around 79,800 yen.

 

[JamesErik1971]

missing my point. in an effort to avoid repeating myself, I ask you to reread my posts again, slowly. as the EOS-M has a 650D sensor inside, not a 60D sensor.

 

[rrccad]

JamesErik1971 wrote:

missing my point. in an effort to avoid repeating myself, I ask you to reread my posts again, slowly. as the EOS-M has a 650D sensor inside, not a 60D sensor.

I did - however, I assumed the huge gap in your logic which was assuming that the 70D sensor / related technology had any bearing.

You are trying to make a relationship with the 70D from something that sticks to the wall then and no basis of associated merit.

Still, the 650D was released at 89,000 Yen - more than the M at 79800.

so what's to say the next M would be 1X99 as you so quaintly put it.

you're pulling a number out of your posterior that really doesn't have any relationship.

 

[JamesErik1971]

what's the USD 70D kit price again?

 

[rrccad]

JamesErik1971 wrote:

what's the USD 70D kit price again?

USD has no bearing on this, unless I missed the announcement that the canon moved to the united states. also with the variance on the yen, the price can vary dramatically depending on announcement and launch date.

and neither as you so keep mentioning the 650D which is rebel class, has any bearing on the 70D which is most certainly not rebel class.

what we've established:

top line rebel body cost less than XXD series bodies.
M is priced less than top end rebel bodies.

 

[Jonathan Brady]

Well don't go and do his homework for him! If he wants to make bold claims, he should be the one to back them up or stop making them.

He should also find out how the cost of the M relates to the cost of production of each of the other Canon cameras. If/when he learns that, THEN he can boldly assert his opinion.

 

[Dedcakes]

Lawrencew wrote:

Given its prime raison d'être is to improve liveview performance, why would canon NOT put it in their next mirrorless camera?

It makes less sense to me to keep it just in DSLRs where in the case of something like the 70D most users will probably continue to use the OVF.

 

[sneakerpimp]

Jonathan Brady wrote:

Well don't go and do his homework for him! If he wants to make bold claims, he should be the one to back them up or stop making them.

He should also find out how the cost of the M relates to the cost of production of each of the other Canon cameras. If/when he learns that, THEN he can boldly assert his opinion.

sorry i had an answer to your inquiry :-x