Technical questions about ISO and dynamic range.

Rikkarlo

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Hi all,

recently I read an article about astrophotography that explained a controintuitive aspect of photography, namely higher ISO=less noise.

The author obtained that result by increasing ISO keeping diafram and shutter speed fixed, then he took multiple pictures with different ISO, and he matched the exposure in post via software, and compared the level of noise, and indeed there was much more noise in the low ISO ones! The same behavior can be observed in the input referred read noise chart in photos and photons web site for pretty much all cameras.

So my question is: How does this happen from a technical point of view? From my understanding of ISO, it is basically analog gain, if this is true it does not multiply the amount of photons captured, but it should just multiply the power of the already captured signal which also embeds the noise, so how is it possible that multiplying the signal and the noise analogically and reducing it digitally later gives less noise? I would have expected the same noise.

My second question is. If increasing ISO would decrease noise in astrophotografy, one could think that it is always better to use higher ISO settings, however with high ISO everybody teaches that we loose dynamic range, so how to know the sweet spot to shoot at?

Last question, from a technical point of view why do we loose dynamic range by increasing ISO?
 
Hi all,

recently I read an article about astrophotography that explained a controintuitive aspect of photography, namely higher ISO=less noise.

The author obtained that result by increasing ISO keeping diafram and shutter speed fixed, then he took multiple pictures with different ISO, and he matched the exposure in post via software, and compared the level of noise, and indeed there was much more noise in the low ISO ones! The same behavior can be observed in the input referred read noise chart in photos and photons web site for pretty much all cameras.

So my question is: How does this happen from a technical point of view? From my understanding of ISO, it is basically analog gain, if this is true it does not multiply the amount of photons captured, but it should just multiply the power of the already captured signal which also embeds the noise, so how is it possible that multiplying the signal and the noise analogically and reducing it digitally later gives less noise? I would have expected the same noise.

My second question is. If increasing ISO would decrease noise in astrophotografy, one could think that it is always better to use higher ISO settings, however with high ISO everybody teaches that we loose dynamic range, so how to know the sweet spot to shoot at?

Last question, from a technical point of view why do we loose dynamic range by increasing ISO?
There are several components to the noise in a digital photograph. There is noise from the light captured. There is noise from the electronics reading the signal on the sensor (read noise), there is noise from the temperature of the electronics, there is noise from electronics caused by just being powered up.

There is also analogue and digital amplification used in digital cameras. Different cameras have different amplification strategies and these can vary depending on the ISO selected. You can see this in the dynamic range charts on Photons to Photos where the dynamic range of some cameras goes up and down at intermediate ISO settings (not on the 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600 sequence).

The result is that cameras can have more read noise at lower ISO settings and this read noise will level out above a certain ISO setting.

With astrophotography you test the camera to find the sweet spot in regards to noise levels and dynamic range. You find the lowest ISO that gives acceptable noise.

A digital sensor has a fixed sensitivity to light. At the lowest (non extended) ISO the maximum signal you get is from the maximum amount of light it can capture before the light sensors are overloaded. As you increase the ISO the amplification means the signal reaches the maximum level before the light sensors reach the max amount of light they can take before overloading. This means as you go up the ISO range the light captured is reduced. The noise from reading the sensor doesn't change (theoretically but as you know it can change) so as the ISO goes up it is a bigger amount compared to the signal from the sensor (as the light captured is reduced) More noise and less signal = less dynamic range.
 
Hi all,

recently I read an article about astrophotography that explained a controintuitive aspect of photography, namely higher ISO=less noise.

The author obtained that result by increasing ISO keeping diafram and shutter speed fixed, then he took multiple pictures with different ISO, and he matched the exposure in post via software, and compared the level of noise, and indeed there was much more noise in the low ISO ones! The same behavior can be observed in the input referred read noise chart in photos and photons web site for pretty much all cameras.

So my question is: How does this happen from a technical point of view? From my understanding of ISO, it is basically analog gain, if this is true it does not multiply the amount of photons captured, but it should just multiply the power of the already captured signal which also embeds the noise, so how is it possible that multiplying the signal and the noise analogically and reducing it digitally later gives less noise? I would have expected the same noise.

My second question is. If increasing ISO would decrease noise in astrophotografy, one could think that it is always better to use higher ISO settings, however with high ISO everybody teaches that we loose dynamic range, so how to know the sweet spot to shoot at?

Last question, from a technical point of view why do we loose dynamic range by increasing ISO?
Hello,

For your first question, there are several kinds of noise: shot noise (inherent to the nature of light) and read noise (electronic noise). The signal and the shot noise will be amplified, but the read noise is more constant. This means that relatively to the signal, the SNR generally improves with ISO

For the second question, increasing ISO increases the potential dynamic range but as long as you do not clip highlights, you can expect only improvements. In fact, it increases in practice the DR because there is less noise in the shadows

For the last question: increasing ISO creates highlight clipping, adding +1ev makes you loose 1ev (potentially) in the highlights. It may improve slightly the shadows as explained before, but you will gain much less than 1ev in the shadows (and 0ev with an ISOless sensor). Globally, the potential DR decreases ..

Hope this helps,

Chris
 
Hi all,

recently I read an article about astrophotography that explained a controintuitive aspect of photography, namely higher ISO=less noise.

The author obtained that result by increasing ISO keeping diafram and shutter speed fixed, then he took multiple pictures with different ISO, and he matched the exposure in post via software, and compared the level of noise, and indeed there was much more noise in the low ISO ones! The same behavior can be observed in the input referred read noise chart in photos and photons web site for pretty much all cameras.
It's not counterintuitive if you view it from another angle: namely, generally it's better to increase ISO (if you don't clip the highlights) than brightness in postprocessing. However it's not true in certain cases - some cameras are ISO-invariant in certain ISO ranges.
So my question is: How does this happen from a technical point of view? From my understanding of ISO, it is basically analog gain, if this is true it does not multiply the amount of photons captured, but it should just multiply the power of the already captured signal which also embeds the noise, so how is it possible that multiplying the signal and the noise analogically and reducing it digitally later gives less noise? I would have expected the same noise.
Yes analog ISO amplifies the signal along with the noise, but the read noise stays the same (it doesn't get amplified). So overall noise is lower.
My second question is. If increasing ISO would decrease noise in astrophotografy, one could think that it is always better to use higher ISO settings, however with high ISO everybody teaches that we loose dynamic range, so how to know the sweet spot to shoot at?
In astrophotography, generally you use the widest aperture possible, but you can be limited in shutter speed. It's always better to increase the exposure but because of the limited shutter speed, the exposure is pretty much fixed. Higher ISO can only be better if you can't increase the exposure anymore. If you can, you'll need to lower the ISO setting or you blow the highlights. Generally yes, the dynamic range drops by approx. 1 stop every time you increase the ISO setting by 1 stop.
Last question, from a technical point of view why do we loose dynamic range by increasing ISO?
Because going from ISO 100 to 200, or 400 to 800 etc. literally clips 1 stop of (potential) highlights. But because of the above effect with decreased noise, the loss may be slightly less than 1 stop. You lose 1 stop in the highlights but gain a little bit in the shadows. Hence that chart on Photostophotos is called "shadow improvement".

Note the above statements are generalised; you should check your concrete camera model on how it behaves at different ISO settings. For example, with Canon R5, ISO 400 is better than ISO 320, plus the camera is ISO-invariant from ISO 800.
 
Hi all,

recently I read an article about astrophotography that explained a controintuitive aspect of photography, namely higher ISO=less noise.
Well that is a short-cut terminology, which is why it is confusing. It is higher ISO settings, not the ISO exposure index intended for that setting, which makes higher ISOs less noisy.
The author obtained that result by increasing ISO keeping diafram and shutter speed fixed, then he took multiple pictures with different ISO, and he matched the exposure in post via software, and compared the level of noise, and indeed there was much more noise in the low ISO ones! The same behavior can be observed in the input referred read noise chart in photos and photons web site for pretty much all cameras.
Yes, this has been known for decades by many people.
So my question is: How does this happen from a technical point of view? From my understanding of ISO, it is basically analog gain, if this is true it does not multiply the amount of photons captured, but it should just multiply the power of the already captured signal which also embeds the noise, so how is it possible that multiplying the signal and the noise analogically and reducing it digitally later gives less noise? I would have expected the same noise.
Gain is in vain unless it gains on something. If you were walking through tall grass and you wished you were much taller, so that you would step on top of the grass instead of getting your feet tangled in it, you wish would be worthless if it was granted, and the grass also got proportionately taller. If the grass stayed the same height, though, it would be easier to walk through, if you got bigger and taller.

Typical digital cameras can have three types of "grass":

1) Digital quantization - rarely an issue, however, except with 12-bit Sony Exmor sensors about a dozen or so years ago that visibly quantized base-ISO deep shadows.

2) Post-gain read noise, the main thing that usually needs to be gained upon.

3) Some newer sensors also have dual-conversion gain, which splits the range of ISO setting into two levels of capacitance in the photosites, which gives the higher range of ISOs less pre-gain read noise, as well.

So, by boosting the gain by boosting the ISO setting (most cameras do this, some do not change gain at all), the signal competes less with quantization, and read noise.
My second question is. If increasing ISO would decrease noise in astrophotografy, one could think that it is always better to use higher ISO settings, however with high ISO everybody teaches that we loose dynamic range, so how to know the sweet spot to shoot at?
With most cameras, you lose headroom when you use a higher ISO than the camera "recommends" for a given exposure, and your OOC JPEGs may be too whitish, so you need to know where the ceiling is, so you don't get carried away and blow out highlights unintentionally.
Last question, from a technical point of view why do we loose dynamic range by increasing ISO?
That is academically true, but DR isn't always important, and singular DR values for a camera at a given ISO do not tell you anything at all about how much of the DR is headroom, and how much is shadow-noise "footroom". So, DR is completely worthless for determining input- or exposure-referred noise. Unfortunately, lots of people are in the habit of focusing on DR instead of what really matters when a shutter speed need prevents standard base-ISO exposure or base-ISO ETTR.
 
Note the above statements are generalised; you should check your concrete camera model on how it behaves at different ISO settings. For example, with Canon R5, ISO 400 is better than ISO 320, plus the camera is ISO-invariant from ISO 800.
Canon has destroyed the deepest shadows of low ISOs with their raw cooking, so measured numbers for black frame read noise at ISO 800 and below are not very accurate.

The R5 has fine banding noise in the post-gain noise, which is still keeping the camera from being truly ISO-invariant above ISO 800. IME, the R5, ESPECIALLY with 12-bit e-shutter, benefits quite a bit from ETTR at a higher ISO even up to the top of the analog-varied ISO range. I had used HTP originally with the R5, but found it to greatly increase the fine banding noise, especially in 12-bit mode, and turned it off.
 
Hi all,

recently I read an article about astrophotography that explained a controintuitive aspect of photography, namely higher ISO=less noise.
Well, that is wrong, due to sloppy use of terminology. It would have been more correct to say that higher ISO leads to less noisy-looking images. Higher ISO always leads to more noise (except on digital camera that don't implement ISO increases with analog gain) , but how noisy an image looks doesn't depend on how much noise is in the image, It depends on the Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR). The higher the SNR, the less noisy the image looks. In fact, the least noisy-looking images are generally the ones with the most noise, but they also have even more signal, so have a higher SNR.

Other posters have already pointed out that there are multiple sources of noise. In most photos - those made with plenty of light - the overwhelmingly largest amount of noise comes from variation in the light itself. This is called shot noise. Shot noise is proportional to the square root of the amount of light captured. As you increase the light captured (by increasing your exposure) the signal (amount of light captured) and the noise both increase, but the signal increases with the square of the noise, so the SNR improves as you increase exposure, and the photo looks less noisy.

Digital cameras add a relatively small amount of noise. Most of that noise is constant, regardless of exposure but noise related to heat will increase with exposure time. Much of the noise added by the camera is added before the gain stage, but some is added by the variable gain amplifier, and some more may be added after gain is applied.

A couple of posters seem to claim that camera-added noise is not affected by gain. This is not strictly correct Gain is applied to all signal, and to all noise present before the gain stage. Only noise added at or after the gain stage is unaffected by the gain.

It is the fact that noise added at or after the gain stage is unaffected by the gain that is the major reason why increased ISO can result in less noisy images. Consider what happens to the SNR when gain is applied.

All the signal (the numerator of the SNR fraction) is multiplied by the gain factor. But only some of the denominator (the noise added before the gain stage) is multiplied by the gain. As a result the SNR increases.
The author obtained that result by increasing ISO keeping diafram and shutter speed fixed, then he took multiple pictures with different ISO, and he matched the exposure in post via software,
No he didn't. Perhaps he matched the image lightness, but how light or dark the image is is not its exposure, Exposure is the amount of light that hits the sensor per unit area. One cannot change that after capture.
and compared the level of noise, and indeed there was much more noise in the low ISO ones!
Again, probably not. There probably was less noise in the low ISO ones, but they also had a lower SNR.
The same behavior can be observed in the input referred read noise chart in photos and photons web site for pretty much all cameras.

So my question is: How does this happen from a technical point of view? From my understanding of ISO, it is basically analog gain, if this is true it does not multiply the amount of photons captured, but it should just multiply the power of the already captured signal which also embeds the noise,
It doesn't embed the noise added by the camera at or after the gain stage. It is the fact that this late-added noise is not increased by the gain while the signal is increased that leads to the higher ISO image having a higher SNR (but not less noise).
so how is it possible that multiplying the signal and the noise analogically and reducing it digitally later gives less noise? I would have expected the same noise.
Well you missed that not all the noise was amplified.
My second question is. If increasing ISO would decrease noise in astrophotografy, one could think that it is always better to use higher ISO settings, however with high ISO everybody teaches that we loose dynamic range, so how to know the sweet spot to shoot at?
Shoot at the highest exposure (widest aperture, slowest shutter) that meets your artistic goals. If at this exposure there is room for you to increase ISO above base ISO without clipping desired highlight detail, increase the ISO to just short of where desired highlight detail would clip.

If you are leaving highlight headroom (the value of the pixel with the brightest highlight is less than the maximum recordable value) , you are not using all the potential DR of the camera. So increasing ISO increases the DR of your photo (not the potential max DR of the camera) until your ISO increase starts to cause highlight clipping, At that point increasing ISO any more doesn't add any more DR to your images.
Last question, from a technical point of view why do we loose dynamic range by increasing ISO?
You don't necessarily lose DR by increasing ISO. Distinguish between the maximum potential DR of your camera, and the actual DR of your photo. Your camera loses potential DR when amplification makes pixel values increase to or above the maximum recordable value. Charts which measure the DR of a camera assume that each pixel is fully saturated. The pixel values are all as high as can be recorded.

If the brightest pixel in an image you capture is darker than the largest recordable pixel value, you don't lose DR in the image until you increase the ISO so much that it increases the pixel values beyond the recordable limit.
 
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Hi all,

recently I read an article about astrophotography that explained a controintuitive aspect of photography, namely higher ISO=less noise.

The author obtained that result by increasing ISO keeping diafram and shutter speed fixed, then he took multiple pictures with different ISO, and he matched the exposure in post via software, and compared the level of noise, and indeed there was much more noise in the low ISO ones! The same behavior can be observed in the input referred read noise chart in photos and photons web site for pretty much all cameras.

So my question is: How does this happen from a technical point of view? From my understanding of ISO, it is basically analog gain, if this is true it does not multiply the amount of photons captured, but it should just multiply the power of the already captured signal which also embeds the noise, so how is it possible that multiplying the signal and the noise analogically and reducing it digitally later gives less noise? I would have expected the same noise.

My second question is. If increasing ISO would decrease noise in astrophotografy, one could think that it is always better to use higher ISO settings, however with high ISO everybody teaches that we loose dynamic range, so how to know the sweet spot to shoot at?

Last question, from a technical point of view why do we loose dynamic range by increasing ISO?
The short answer is that at higher ISO settings, some cameras reconfigure their internal processing to add less noise to the image. The downside is that in the lower noise configuration, the camera can't tolerate a high exposure.

The general rule is that the biggest contributor to low exposure noise is the shot noise. That's the noise inherent in the quantum nature of light. Shot noise goes down as the exposure goes up.

Cameras do add a little bit of noise. Generally, this is smaller than the shot noise.

.

The best way to reduce noise is to increase exposure (capture more light). Once you have increased the exposure as much as you can, you should set the camera's ISO to match that exposure. The ISO setting lets the camera know what exposure you are expecting, and allows the camera to optimize itself for that exposure.
 
Hi all,

recently I read an article about astrophotography that explained a controintuitive aspect of photography, namely higher ISO=less noise.

The author obtained that result by increasing ISO keeping diafram and shutter speed fixed, then he took multiple pictures with different ISO, and he matched the exposure in post via software, and compared the level of noise, and indeed there was much more noise in the low ISO ones! The same behavior can be observed in the input referred read noise chart in photos and photons web site for pretty much all cameras.

So my question is: How does this happen from a technical point of view? From my understanding of ISO, it is basically analog gain, if this is true it does not multiply the amount of photons captured, but it should just multiply the power of the already captured signal which also embeds the noise, so how is it possible that multiplying the signal and the noise analogically and reducing it digitally later gives less noise? I would have expected the same noise.
Broadly speaking, there are two types of noise we deal with in digital photography. The first and most prominent is photon noise. It's sometimes called shot noise and is determined by the total light used to make a photo. The more light used, the less prominent shot noise will be.

The second is read noise and is a product of in-camera image processing. Historically, read noise is worst at the lowest ISOs and decreases as ISO increases. It's lowest at higher ISOs. At very low ISOs, the associated exposure is typically so strong that signal - the total light used - overwhelms noise (both shot and read noise) to deliver the highest quality images a camera is capable of producing.

However, as exposure and total light used become diminished, shot noise starts to become an issue. Photographers mistakenly associated this increase in noise with an associated increase in ISO and jumped to the incorrect conclusion that increasing ISO causes more noise to be added to photos. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.

Shot noise (photon noise) decreases as exposure decreases. However, signal (total light) also decreases and, as a result, shot noise becomes more prominent. It's the ratio of signal to noise that determines how visible noise will be. Signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) decreases as the total light used to make a photo decreases and noise becomes annoyingly more visible.

As mentioned, read noise historically decreases as ISO increases. This read noise profile was the catalyst for the best practice of using the highest ISO that paired well with the exposure delivered to the sensor. If a photo was made with too low an ISO and needed to be lightened further in post - exposure cannot be altered once the shutter actuation ends - the increased read noise associated with that lower ISO would become more prominent.

In astrophotography and other genres of photography in which it's common to work with minimal light, making photos with the same exposure (same light level, f-stop and shutter speed) but different ISOs could reversal this behavior in older cameras.

However, it's been common for several years for digital cameras to be built around dual-gain sensors. Nikon, Sony and Fujifilm, for instance, all make cameras featuring dual-gain sensors. The advantage of this architecture is that the read noise at ISO 500, for instance, in a Nikon camera is no worse than at ISO 6400. The dual-gain noise profile kicks in at different ISOs, depending on the brand and model camera. It's typically somewhere in the ISO 400 to 800 range. When the dual-gain threshold is reached, the penalty of low ISO read noise is no longer an issue.

How does this benefit the photographer? Well, suppose you're making a photo of a scene with bright highlights and rather deep shadows. You might select exposure settings (f-stop and shutter speed) to maximize the light delivered to the sensor without blowing out the highlights at ISO 500. The resulting photo would have fairly dark shadows showing minimal detail. However, you could then bring the photo into Lightroom Classic (or your photo editing app of choice) and increase the lightness of the shadows to reveal detail without suffering any penalty in increased read noise or compromising the final image quality.

While f-stop (lens aperture) and shutter speed (exposure time) determine how much light from the scene is delivered to the sensor - or film negative, or glass plate - and what exposure the camera works with, ISO is used to manage image lightness. It communicates a relationship to the camera between the exposure being used and the lightness of the output photo. The camera uses this information to process the recorded data and produce an image of a given lightness.

ISO is not an exposure setting. (It never has been.) It has no direct affect on how much light is delivered to the sensor. Nor is ISO a source of noise in a photo. ISO merely communicates an exposure value to the camera. That's its defined role in the digital imaging industry.
My second question is. If increasing ISO would decrease noise in astrophotografy, one could think that it is always better to use higher ISO settings, however with high ISO everybody teaches that we loose dynamic range, so how to know the sweet spot to shoot at?
You will always be well-served by maximizing exposure - the amount of light from the scene per unit area as projected by the lens upon the sensor - within your creative goals for an image. If you use the widest lens aperture that produces an adequate depth of field and the slowest shutter speed that acceptably renders movement in the frame without blowing out important highlights, you've optimized exposure. At that point, use the ISO that results in a photo having a pleasing lightness.

In night sky photography, you'll balance the ability of a lens to capture light (its widest available aperture) against optical aberrations that compromise image quality away from the center of the frame. You'll balance a long exposure time and the benefits of putting more light on the sensor against the ability - or lack thereof - of the tripod to track and compensate for Earth's axial rotation and mitigate star trailing.

There are advanced techniques, such as stacking multiple shorter exposures to produce a composite image representing more total light and, therefore, having less visible noise. These are considerations that you'll need to weigh, that you'll need to prioritize according to your image aesthetic. If you seek out the good folks in the "Astrophotography Talk Forum," they'll be able to provide expert guidance on specific questions you may have.
Last question, from a technical point of view why do we loose dynamic range by increasing ISO?
Dynamic range in a photo is maximized when the camera works with the greatest exposure and most total light it's designed to capture. Our photos lose dynamic range when we work with diminishing amounts of light.

Think of ISO as the proverbial canary in the coal mine. It's not an exposure setting, doesn't control how much light is used to make a photo or the dynamic range your finished image will have. But it is often a reliable indicator of a strong or weak exposure and the dynamic range that will be present in the final image.

--
Bill Ferris Photography
Flagstaff, AZ
 
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DPR has published an occasional series of articles on fundamentals. Among those listed are a couple of well written articles on ISO.

Nick
 
Thanks a lot to everyone answering this post! I'm humbled by your willingness to share your professional knowledge with me. I'm confident that I finally understand exactly how it works! This is the type of technical answer I was seeking for!

Thank you also for correcting my improper use of terminology, I think a great part of misunderstandings in this field comes from improper use of terminology (I must say that lightroom's use of terminology does not help since it uses the term "exposure" to describe something that is not what a photographer would use it for)!

Thanks for your time and I'll do my best to share the verb with my photography pals :)!
 
Your answer in particular is golden! You solved pretty much all my doubts, thank you very much!
 

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