S3 - 6 or 12mp?

Greg Summers

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I want to get a new Nikon Compatible DSLR because I have a lot of glass for them - is the S3 a legitimate 12 mp or a 6mp indicated in the official reveiw - that is, does it have the actual resolution of a 12mp sensor as it it has two photsites at each location - the file sizes seem to idicate it will make large prints.

I am confused - the more I read - the more so - The D2X is expensive but my be worth it as i wish to make large prints.

This is not meant to be contentious. Things change so rapidl in this technology so 12 mp maybe small potatoes in a year - and is the $2,500 exra justified by image qulaity and resolution - there's the value of the images that might have been which could far ourweigh the cost if the quality of one is superior - or are opinions on this widely varied?

Any help is appreciated

--
Greg Summers
http://www.coloradophotos.com
[email protected]
 
How large are you talking about printing and how much cropping will you be doing? If you expect to print larger than 13" x 19" and/or doing a lot of cropping the D2x has more resolution.

The S3 has 12 mp worth of photosites, but something less than 12 mp of resolution (over 6mp though). It may still meet your needs though at a much reduced price over the D2x.

The other issues are involve dynamic range, camera speed/responsiveness, and camera ruggedness. Evaluate your needs and choose accordingly.

Anthony
I want to get a new Nikon Compatible DSLR because I have a lot of
glass for them - is the S3 a legitimate 12 mp or a 6mp indicated in
the official reveiw - that is, does it have the actual resolution
of a 12mp sensor as it it has two photsites at each location - the
file sizes seem to idicate it will make large prints.

I am confused - the more I read - the more so - The D2X is
expensive but my be worth it as i wish to make large prints.

This is not meant to be contentious. Things change so rapidl in
this technology so 12 mp maybe small potatoes in a year - and is
the $2,500 exra justified by image qulaity and resolution - there's
the value of the images that might have been which could far
ourweigh the cost if the quality of one is superior - or are
opinions on this widely varied?

Any help is appreciated

--
Greg Summers
http://www.coloradophotos.com
[email protected]
 
This has been beaten to death.

There is a search function on the site.

Hint: It is a hidden 24MP camera.

Bernie
--

'Walking around like regular people. They don't see each other. They only see what they want to see.' Cole, the 6th sense
 
Greg,

As Bernie says, there is enough S3 ( and d2X ) material here to keep you
confused for weeks :-)

I see that you are out in Colorado, so you may be planning some large
format landscapes, mountainscapes, valleyscapes, etc.

I have the Fuji S2, a 6MP camera which is generally accepted to produce
images with an equivalent MP of between 7 and 8 MP.

From what I have read here, the S3's images have better dynamic
range than say, the D2X, so if one is shooting landscapes with huge
differences in lighted and shadowy areas, most cameras would be
confused, but the S3 appears to be better able to cope with these
contrasts in any one image and give you balanced image quality,
with less blown highlights in the bright areas and more detail in the
shadow areas.

The experts can correct me, but it boils down to your personal
preferences and needs. The 12MP of the D2X will give you better
overall detail and resolution for large prints, but the S3 may better
resolve the light differences . . .

Both great cameras for individual needs. I do a lot of large format
prints on the 7600, and the S2 images are stunning, so I can imagine
that S3 images would be even better, however f I could justify the cash,
I would probably go for the D2x for its amazing resolution.

Good luck in your decision
Keith
 
and is the $2,500 exra justified by image qulaity and resolution
The D2X gives you higher resoultion. The S3 captures a higher dynamic range, so its image quality can be greater.

I own both. I consider the D2x my "transparency fim" camera, the S3 my "negative film" camera. I'll pick one or the other in about the same way I used to pick one type of film or the other in the past.

I'm shooting an outdoor wedding in a week; I plan to use the S3, not the D2X.

BTW, I bought the D2X before the white balance encryption issue came to light, I would not buy one today.

--
Regards,
Roger
 
Roger

I thought that the WB encryption challenge had software workarounds.
Is it just that the workflow is too complex and time-consuming ?

Do you think that it is something for which Nikon would eventually
release an update ?

Your comments were interesting re the S3 and D2X each having their
own capabilities . . .

thanks,
Keith
 
I owned a Fuji S2 for several years, I tried a Fuji S3 and jumped to canon.

nonetheless, who says that the Fuji S2 is more like a 8mp camera is :
  1. 1 - complete liar, problably son of the Fuji owner
  2. 2 - never touched or seen a 8mp picture
A fuji S2 3 picture is great, but is NOWHERE a 8mp. Grab a Canon 20D, 350D or a 1DMKII. Take a 8mp picture and compare to the S's. Nowhere near.

Trully more resolution than in the Fuji's. Can we see it on monitor ? Oh yes. In printing ? If large, we can. Up to A4 size, hardly spotable the increase.

Now, 12mp is a different story. My 1Ds prints are MILES, but MILES away from my S2 and S3 prints. But miles. But no where ( except for ray charles ) near the Fuji's. both printed ( what a difference ) and on monitor.

I guess the Nikon D2x is similar. Or would be.

saying the Fuji S3 have increased dinamic range therefore a better image quality than the D2x is pathetic.

dont get me wrong, the S3 is a great camera. But not up to the D2x standards.

D2x has a worlds best AF, superb metering, good WB, bright viewfinder, PRO class body, superb construction and 12mp, superb flash ( iTTL ) , good buffer

S3 has medium ( to the best ) AF, moderate metering, small viewfinder, body with a vertical grip ( that doesnt make it pro ) and nice construction, BAD flash system, horrible buffer and pathetic write times

The S3 leap in dynamic range is VERY questionable. It's there but NOT that much as some people can see.

So , if you want to print big, dont skimp : go D2x. Along with the extra pixels, you'll get a VERYYYYYYYYYY different and pro class camera. If you dont have the cash, S3 is very nice camera, very nice camera with SOME quirks.

Yes, the D2x carries a heavy price tag but its well worth it
--
Goncalo Proenca - Lisbon,Portugal, Europe
=====================================
+ - Canon EOS 1DS ( MKI )
+ - Canon 24-70 L USM 2,8
+ - Canon 50mm 2.5 MACRO
=====================================
 
there is no need for rudeness - i asked a question - you don't want to answer - don't - there is so much material on this site - it's hard to find - i searched - then i asked - nice that others showed some consideration

Greg Summers
http://www.coloradophotos.com
[email protected]
 
nonetheless, who says that the Fuji S2 is more like a 8mp camera is :
  1. 1 - complete liar, problably son of the Fuji owner
  2. 2 - never touched or seen a 8mp picture
A fuji S2 3 picture is great, but is NOWHERE a 8mp. Grab a Canon
20D, 350D or a 1DMKII. Take a 8mp picture and compare to the S's.
Nowhere near.
Hahaha - you are one funny person. You confirm the old thing: The smaller (or non- existant) the difference is, the bigger the arguments.

Even a conventional 6MP image compared to a 8MP image is very little more - Imagine one detail in the image like a leaf on a tree: In a 8MP camera, instead of being rendered by 6 pixels, it is rendered by 8 pixels. Big deal!! The Fuji S2 however renders it with 12 pixels which are interpolated by the honycomb chip. With the best lenses it can be amazingly sharp. BTW, the S2 had a bit more detail than the S3. However the final image of the S3 is more natural, and has this phenomenal DR which is better than the Canon of course. The Canon has more resolution than the S3 (but not more than the S2).

11 or 12MP is visibly more resolution, but even there its not "worlds apart". In the Fuji image you will see the same details, just not as sharp as with the Canon or Nikon D2x.

Bernie

People imagine that suddenly when they ramp up 2 MP i
 
For the education from experienced users - i appreciate it - i
think I have a much better idea now of the differences
Don't be too optimistic, few have really used all 3 cameras (S2, S3, D2x), and it is a more common thing to justify one's own purchase. Actually the truth is that regardless of 6 or 8MP, the resolution of most DSLRs is quite similar. The 1ds or Nikon D2x is sharper and has a bit more detail. What is much more important is the general photographic quality of the image. There have been 2 or 3 threads of people who actually use both the D2x AND the Fuji S3 and the amazing thing for me was that regardless of the very advanced camera body of the D2x and its big resolution, many really like the S3 for what it delivers.

To find out how much that really makes, I will have a D2x for 2 days next week from a shop.

Greets,

Bernie
 
Keith,

I don't see the WB encryption issue as just a nuissance, but as an intolerable move on Nikon's part.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/raw-flaw.shtml

Voting with our wallet is one way to combat such behaviour. As an amateur, I do not "need" the D2X. In my case, it is too late to "not purchase" the D2X. I will, however, not be buying the 200-400/4 zoom which was on my wish list for later this year unless Nikon changes its mind and releases unencrypted RAW firmware for its cameras.

--
Regards,
Roger
 
--
S2, S3, 60micro 2.8D , 17-55 DX, 24-120 VR ,
70-300ED ,sb800, Metz 45 cl4, Lexar 4gb , 2gb , 2gb , 1gb

Do nice pictures and tell us how you have done ;)
enjoy making and sharing it
 
This is not meant to be contentious.
for someone wishing to stick with Nikkor glass, this is an important matter and you will find highly polarized views on this subject on FSLRT

sometimes the discussions here have been heated and often folks authoritatively contribute who actually have little or no experience with both cameras, such as Goncalo

I don't know that you can appreciate the depth of passion the S3 evokes, both negative and positive, which may explain Bernie's curt response

I seriously considered the D2X ...it has many virtues that are very tempting ...faster fps, larger buffer, more robust body, better AF, iTTL
for my photographic interests, these were not an important consideration

from what I have seen in now countless D2X posts the greater resolution of the camera is just not that noticeable when compared to the S3 output and I have downloaded many, many full resolution samples from NEF from the D2X ...the increased resolution its there, but really not that much different from what I get with my S3 and it should make little if any difference for images printed at sizes most would use ...ths S3 certainly resolves more than the D2X in high DR scenes as it clearly has greater dynamic range ...if a highlight is blown or a shadow detail lost, was it resolved??? ...the SCCD design resolves more than 6 MB and less than 12 MB, but seems closer to 12 than 6 to my eye

I do see numerous threads about blown highlights from the D2X in its forum (take a visit, why don't you) and many posts asking "are these skin tones good?" questions as well (that Nikon D2X users download a curve to emulate Fuji color speaks volumes about image quality ...btw Nikon Capture is required to download a curve & is not included with the $5000 price of the D2X, but must be purchased seperately) ...I am also starting to see threads about concerns with the Sony designed 12 MB CMOS sensor (a first for Sony, btw) at the margins when using a wide angle lens ...this seems a problem with the large Canon CMOS sensor as well & may be another of the liabilities inherent in using CMOS sensor whose main advantage over CCD remains cheaper production costs ...the S3's sensor is clearly less noisy at high ISO which reflects the basic difference between CMOS and CCD capture

the S3's body is a Frankencamera, but now the third such built by Fuji & clearly a superior body to the S2, which proved highly useable and more than adequate for many of us
Nikon makes outstanding camera bodies, without question

Fuji manufactures its own sensors in its own chip foundry & Fuji has been an innovator in sensor design since the S1 ...they mated this state of the art sensor with truly "radical" (the NY Times critics word, not mine) image engineering that has so improved jpg capture such that RAW really is not needed with the S3 ...for me this is a huge advantage

people pooh pooh the fact that the S3 captures using a 14 bit AD converter while the Nikon (and Canon) SLR use 12 bit AD converters, but this finer approximation of the critical analog to digital conversion step may be the key to the Fuji's outstanding image quality, along with the increased dynamic range, which contrary to what the S3 naive Goncalo stated, is very real & appreciated in jpg when shot in Adobe RGB mode and at orig orig off Wide2/Auto settings

indeed, for me, the ability to nearly abandon RAW capture with the S3 has been its most "radical" advantage ...the jpg output offers a myriad of options for shooting and can produce a file, when set up properly, that makes shooting RAW much, much less necessary

the S3 makes getting outstanding image quality simple ...in challenging lighting the S3 allows for capture in jpg, what the D2X struggles to get in RAW ...my thinking about photography has changed ...the advantages of wider DR capture can transform your photography ...DR plays a much bigger role than I would have imagined

to make any reasonable sense of this try to look at as many full resolution images as you can from both cameras if you can not get your hands on one to give it a work out

both are very capable and you should make your decision based on how you shoot and what you need

for me, the D2X'es body advantages were just not worth the > 2X price differential as I find the image quality output of the S3 superior to the D2X for the kind of photography I love to shoot
hope this helps
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
I want to get a new Nikon Compatible DSLR because I have a lot of
glass for them - is the S3 a legitimate 12 mp or a 6mp indicated in
the official reveiw -
These cameras are pixel for pixel identical to my Kodak slr/n when I use the same lens (ie 50mm F1.8). What I mean is that you could superimpose the 1.5X image from Fuji to the 1X Kodak and each and any pixel would give the same amount of resolution information. Guess what though, the Kodak has 14M of these photositesnot 6 and the amount of information taken is 100% more and something.

The mythology of the Fuji superior resolution is due to the bad resolution of the Nikon D100 and Canon D60 cameras that came in the market when the S2 came out. These cameras had a AA filter that is too aggressive and it cripples the resolution. If you consider the D100 6MP the S2/S3 are indeed equivalent to 8 but is a relative assessment not real resolution.

The Fujis (and the Kodak) pay this higher resolution with occasional moiré when certain patterns are photographed. Doesn’t happen too frequently but it may happen.

--
Regards
Gabriele
California, CA
--------------------
Equipment list in profile
 
from what I have seen in now countless D2X posts the greater
resolution of the camera is just not that noticeable when compared
to the S3 output and I have downloaded many, many full resolution
samples from NEF from the D2X ...
Like always, this is plain ridiculous. But how can you discuss with a man in love? His blindness is capable of anything including finding enormous color depth in a jpeg image that as all the sane people know, it has 8bit/channel.

--
Regards
Gabriele
California, CA
--------------------
Equipment list in profile
 
I was waiting for your always kind words

I do have affection for this camera ...it is very well suited to the photography I do and many others find this true as well

I recognize its weaknesses and the strengths of other makes, as I have pointed oujt
you are dead wrong about 8 bit jpg, as we have repeatedly discussed here

if your in camera conversion has better data to process (14 bit capture), the resulting 8 bit jpg is superior to one taken from the much less fine 12 bit space ...with 14 bits the jpg conversion uses a sample with 16384 levels as compared to 4096 levels of 12 bit AD conversion ...which do you think will produce a more accurate jpg

this holds true in any analog to digital conversion & I am surprised that this simple fact is forgotten by someone with all your stated experience in computers ...the Fuji S3 has a huge advantage here & virtually every reviewer has commented on the remarkable quality of jpgs coming from the S3

the S3 makes getting great shots easier ...maybe this is the source of my affection
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke
 
I appreciate the detail you went in to - and your detailed explanations will have to settle in. For all the advances, i still get great images from my antique CP5000 - at least at 100 ISO.

I am at a cross roads - so all information is appreciated.

--
Greg Summers
http://www.coloradophotos.com
[email protected]
 

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